Was thinking of picking up Elise, since her new skin is really sexy. Is this an okay build?
Merc Treads Trailblazer w/ Magus Randuins Liandrys Situational Situational
The idea of this build is based on what I do on Wukong/Vi/J4, except I get Warrior Enchantment and Black Cleaver where Liandrys is. Essentially this Theoretical Elise build is just an AP version of what I do on AD junglers.
Feedback is appreciated!
Sammystorm2 voteselise scales better off of magic pen then she does ap. Her ratios are not very good but she has solid inherent damage.
NautSupportingU1 votesReplace magus enchant with juggernaut everything else looks fine imo
Reynard the ƒox1 votes[{quoted}](name=Dazzling Taric,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZTrPFWO9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2014-12-18T09:20:34.284+0000)
Replace magus enchant with juggernaut everything else looks fine imo
Is Elise's base damage high enough to justify using the tank enchantment?
I don't have enough IP for her just yet but when I do I imagine I'll experiment with both items anyway.
Vicarious1171 votesA lot of her damage is based on either your opponents current health, doing more if they're high on health, or doing bonus damage based on how much health they're missing. This means AP isn't all that necessary for her to be effective, and since her nerfs a while back she is still seriously squishy but can no longer one shot ANYONE early game with enough AP just based on their health.
So building the tankier jungle item gives you that survivability you need early game while still retaining a decent amount of damage on top of your cc and mobility.
Cale0174 votesAbsolutely. Her %health damage works much better off of penetration than off of AP, so that's the offensive itemization you want to focus on. Outside of that, you just want tank stats. If you want a clearer picture of why stacking AP on her isn't really a good idea, try playing a match with her built as a straight AP assassin. Her damage output can ramp up rather severely from a combination of high AP and high penetration, but you'll quickly find that she starts losing steam during the lategame as she's entirely too easy to take down without sufficient bulk to back her up. She might not deal as much damage playing off of a meager amount of AP combined with stacked penetration, but she'll be able to deal that damage for much longer and make herself overall much more useful.
To give some reference, a standard build for her in S4 was Ancient Golem, Sorc Boots/Merc Treads depending on the enemy team, a Liandry's Torment, and then situational from there. A lot of people favored Rylai's Crystal Scepter, myself included, for the addition of a slow to her kit, making her spells deal double burn from the Liandry's, and the extra health. The 80 AP didn't exactly go to waste either, as her spider form deals AP based magic damage on hit, her spiderlings heal based partially on her AP, and her human form W still has a decent AP scaling. Abyssal Scepter was pretty popular if you needed some MR due to the fact that i made her W/autos a slight bit more potent, but the main draw was that amazing aura that just flat reduced MR around her by 20 while considerably buffing her own.
In general, she works a bit better as somewhat of a health tank than as a standard tank. You want her to be survivable enough to hop around a fight, but she probably shouldn't be the main source of tank for a team. She fits a kind of odd role as an AP bruissassin; in smaller skirmishes she serves as a decent tank, able to safely outlast one or two squishier foes, in slightly longer ones she can hop around disrupting the enemy while weakening the squishies, and in 1v1 situations she's an amazing duelist. An Elise usually won't be able to 100-0 burst someone, so she isn't an assassin in the vein of a high AD Rengar or an AP assassin like Kat, Akali, or Diana, but more along the lines of a Nocturne style assassin. If you're alone, she's going to kill you, it's just going to be a slightly more drawn out process consisting of you attempting to run away and her whittling you down while you try to. The best items for an Elise are ones that give a mix of durability and offenses, hence the focus on Liandry's/Rylai's as main offensive items, and items like Abyssal Scepter for defensive options. You don't want to focus on one to the exclusion of the other, but you have to know when to strike what balance and where. Elise is a VERY varied champion, and her standard build can be swapped out pretty freely as needed. I've seen, although I wouldn't suggest, builds centered around her spider form utilizing Nashor's Tooth, and I've seen builds that focus on CDR and tank stats so she can hit you more often with her W and Q in spider form to outlast you that way.
That being said, building tank items isn't the worst choice you can make. A Spirit Visage will increase the healing she's getting from her spiders hitting something, which can actually add up with 5 spiders up and her W maxed out. A Randuin's Omen applies an undeniably nifty slow that can help with disengages, disruptions, or slowing a fleeing enemy if you don't have any spells available to get that Rylai's proc off. Banshee's Veil lets her dive into enemy teams with relative impunity, although she should probably be followed up by a beefier tank if she didn't go in at the same time.
Your build's use of tank items isn't terrible, but the tank should come after her core items like Liandry's Torment unless your team just needs a dedicated tank and you're the only viable option. Her excellent ganks usually suffuse the need for building tank early on as cooperation between her and laners can allow for easy, quick kills, so she isn't taking all that much damage through the early game. Try to remember that you're comparing her to champions like Vi, Wukong, and JIV, all of whom have AoE CC available and incredibly powerful engagement options. An Elise has a stun... and that's about it. She isn't meant to dive headlong into enemy teams like that as her utility is meant for repositioning to either escape or put herself in a favorable position to take out a carry if possible. She shouldn't be the one running into a fight the way a JIV would E Q into one, or a Wukong would E R into one. She serves a different purpose and should be treated differently, even if their roles appear to be similar from a cursory glance.
I actually used to HATE Elise, half because she was a spider and half because I found her kit a bit odd and clunky. I didn't like it from a mechanical standpoint, but I sat down one day about half a year ago and committed myself to learning her. More I played her the more I found that her movements and abilities actually flow together pretty well once you've got a handle on her, and her clear speeds in season 4 were absolutely insane. Once I learned her better I was routinely outpacing the spawn timers. Elise is a great champ if you can learn her to the point that using her is half instinct and half trained response. I wish you the best of luck and I hope I was at least a bit helpful!
Raxistaicho2 votesAnother Elise player here, I'd like to theorycraft with you if you don't mind. You prefer Abyssal as an MR item? Makes sense, I usually go Iron Solari for the CDR, but Abyssal makes sense. I still think I'd prefer Frozen Heart for the 20% CDR, though, Elise scales well with CDR as well as pen.
Do you ever bother with Void Staff?
Cale0172 votesI find that the extra reduction from the Abyssal Scepter usually helps keep my damage with Elise relevant going into the late game while giving her that little extra edge in survivability against AP champions at the same time. Lets me keep up my role as someone who can punish enemies who get caught out alone, whoever they are, by giving me every stat I need to do so, more particularly against AP champs who by that time are hitting several hundred AP.
Frozen Heart's great for the CDR, yeah, and it gives so much armor. But building armor without health can actually backfire if you don't stack some health along with it to increase your overall effective health, and she has plenty of other options available. Plus I feel that the mana is somewhat wasted on her, early on she can have some issues but I've never had a problem with her mana in the mid and late game, and Frozen Heart starts looking a little bit worse when you consider that she's only really going to be benefitting from the armor in her spider form, and that one doesn't use mana in the first place. If I ever find myself in need of CDR (against heavy disengage or poke teams where I'm going to need to be able to cast spells frequently to stay on them or send spell after spell from a distance while we stare at each other angrily) I'll usually grab Luci Boots earlier in the match instead of the Sorc Boots since I'm likely to end up buying an Abyssal later anyways. That plus the 5% CDR from runes and then keeping up with my blue buff puts me at 30%. In a pinch the Elixir of Brilliance bumps me up to the cap of 40%.
Honestly no, I don't think I ever really have. Elise isn't about dealing mass damage upfront, she's more about wearing away at someone. I feel like Void Staff is better suited for champions who need to be able to absolutely chunk through tanks, but Elise doesn't usually need that. In a 1v1 situation she has more than enough tankiness with her standard build to last through a straight tank's continuous assault and more than enough damage to kill them long before they've even reached the halfway point of her health. Not to mention that her human form Q will deal a solid hunk of damage to any tank from the % health scaling on it.
Raxistaicho1 votesSo you'd say a good general build for her would be Juggernaut, Liandry's, Randuin's, Abyssal, Sorc Shoes and Rylai's?
Cale0172 votesOh absolutely! Given that Juggernaut isn't really the most efficient jungle item, I can't blame you for the knee jerk reaction that Magus is stronger on her. And she certainly can use it, but unfortunately an Elise benefits far more from being able to stay on a target than from being able to try and nuke them. To that end, Juggernaut.
Considering that you're already going to have built two health items (Juggernaut and then Haunting Guise/Liandry's Torment) consider mixing up your build path. I'll usually get my jungle item and then rush my boots, then build the Haunting Guise and a Warden's Mail, build up a Rylai's Crystal Scepter, then go back and finish the Liandry's now that the Scepter's going to make it proc on all my spells, then finish Randuin's to have the extra health and the slow ready for teamfighting. When I'm doing well in a match, either from assists or kills, I can usually have all of this by about 30 minutes or so, which is when that Randuin's active really starts getting useful.
Since the items that you build for her overlap what stats they offer so well, you can safely build in increments! Use this to give you all the tools you need through the mid game, and finish items in the late game as those final products become more necessary!
Raxistaicho1 votesThose are some excellent ideas, thanks.
I usually run 9 Hybrid Marks, 9 Armor Seals, 9 Scaling MR Glyphs and 3 AP quints. What do you use when it comes to Runes for Elise?
And honestly I only tried Magus once before deciding Juggernaut is the way to go. I just don't think raw AP brings enough to the table for her. Maybe if it gave her 10 extra CDR or 10 Mpen to go with the AP and CDR like they originally planned, but eh.
Cale0171 votesHybrid marks aren't going to do a whole lot on her. Even in spider form, most of her damage comes from her magic on hit so what you want are the magic pen marks instead. Those'll also make your percent health abilities hit just that much harder. The rest is all pretty solid, it's what I use.
It really doesn't. Glad you were able to latch onto why that doesn't quite work for her, it's a sign that you're pretty in tune with how she works already. You want to try and get mixed stat items wherever you can, and Magus is just a bit too straightforwards without really giving her what she honestly needs. Her damage potential is fine as it is, you have to stack a CONSIDERABLE amount of AP to really make a large difference the way you can with other AP champs.
Stick to penetration, only build AP if it's giving you other stats that are useful on her, and for the love of god learn to land your human form Es. You'll be fine if you stick to those rules.
Raxistaicho1 votesLOL, yeah. I just hate it when a minion wave comes just as I'm ganking.
Raxistaicho1 votesWhat masteries do you use?
Cale0171 votesI find that it depends. If they have a team that's got a lot more early game advantage I'll usually go with 9/21/0 so I'm not riding such a thin line of possibly giving up kills. If it's a team of squishies or of people who won't really start hitting their stride until the end game I'll go 21/9/0 to press an early advantage.
That being said, you have to go the 21/9/0 route to get to where the offensive masteries are really helping her in any large way, trying to go for those magic pen masteries. However her early game power isn't the greatest, she normally needs a few ranks in her Q to really lay down a hurting with it, and until her W gets up to snuff she isn't doing a whole lot in trades. Elise really is a mid to late game champion. Until you'd get used to her and are comfortable enough with her kit to start making riskier plays I really would suggest the 9/21/0 route, which will give you some defensive leeway with learning her. That way you can make a few more mistakes than a 21/9 build would allow you.
Raxistaicho1 votesInteresting ideas, thanks!
Reynard the ƒox2 votesThanks for such a detailed response! It was indeed very helpful!
Drunk Rummate1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Bad Daddy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZTrPFWO9,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2014-12-18T09:22:37.930+0000)
Is Elise's base damage high enough to justify using the tank enchantment?
I don't have enough IP for her just yet but when I do I imagine I'll experiment with both items anyway.
Yes. %max hp on her human Q and a %execute on her spider Q. Elise does tons of damage from building tanky and she pretty much needs those defensive stats to be useful or she gets blown up in fights before doing anything.
Raxistaicho1 votesElise's scaling is bad but her bases are good, so yes.
Kowe The Ewok1 votesFor those of you on PBE - try:
Magus (Jungle) Banner of Command ZZ'Rot's Gate Zhonyas/Randuins
EndlessSorcerer1 votesYou are probably better off getting tanky and stacking magic pen. My typically Elise Build now is:
It gives good health and resistances, a bit of AP, and quite a bit of magic pen. I find that I typically upgrade Haunting Guise into Liandry's Torment, sell it for Void Staff, or sell it for Thornmail depending on the situation in game.
Skia Asteri1 votesBotRK / Wit's End. Spider form W.
Phife1 votesjust dont play elise, you'll be fine.