While I don't want to kick Ziggs out of bot lane...

Best Kog NA·Jan 16, 2017·22 votes·2,516 views

We need to do something to nerf him. Right now he has a 55% winrate as an ADC over 6000 games (link 1), and a 54% winrate mid lane over 8000 games (link 2). This is the second highest winrate as an ADC (But the first place's stats have numerous problems with them eg: not enough samples, not enough playrate, heavy mains skewing the data) and the highest winrate as a Mid laner. But what's more concerning is the player experience by role for Ziggs ADC. For not a lot of in-game experience on Ziggs (Most of the games played is 1-5 games, with the rest being 5-50) the winrate is absurdly high.

link 1: http://champion.gg/champion/Ziggs/ADC link 2: http://champion.gg/champion/Ziggs/Middle

30 Comments

Mecha MaIphiteJan 16, 201712 votes

Or just remove tower FB. Half the reason he's a good pick is because he can cheese towers so easily.

MythPuppyJan 16, 20171 votes

That's what he's supposed to do though. He was created as a "tower siege" champ.

Mecha MaIphiteJan 16, 20175 votes

Yeah, so instead of nerfing him, get rid of his bot lane cheese.

He'll still be viable if you want a siege champ, he just won't be abusing that with the whole "clown fiesta bot for their tower" meta.

Best Kog NAJan 16, 20173 votes

He has a 54% winrate mid though.

DrCyanideJan 16, 20172 votes

His passive damage (to towers and to champions) at early levels is more problematic than the W.

Auto attack passives on mages (Orianna, Ziggs, Xerath, Lux) are intended to bring them into close range, where they're traditionally more vulnerable. If Ziggs is being too effective in that range, then it would imply the passive is too strong.

VenomarJan 17, 20171 votes

He's allowed to partake in the bot lane clown fiesta from mid as well, friend.

OleandervineJan 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

That's what he's supposed to do though. He was created as a "tower siege" champ.

Eh, I'm not terribly convinced that in a game where towers are like of the utmost importance to doing well that there should ever be a champion who's direct specialty is nuking them.

Troll for TrumpJan 17, 20172 votes

Yes, but he's not meant to pressure early. He's meant to stall for late with his waveclear, and then blow up everything lategame. Which made him garbo for a long time.

Bot lane ziggs outwaveclears everything in the meta right now. The things that WOULD be able to compete for cs are supports, so they'll avoid the minions.

OrangesilkJan 17, 20173 votes

Then lemme ask you something, why does Tristana have such a low winrate when she's supposed to be the ADC that burns down towers the quickest?.

Jinx Isn't broken this patch either and we all know how easily she shreds through them towers.

The real problem here is that Ziggs has a strong tower-taking potential while ALSO being overbearingly abusive in lane.

AwoofJan 17, 20171 votes

I wouldn't call Ziggs "overbearingly abusive in lane". Obviously biased because I like Ziggs, but that does sound exaggerated. Tristana is just weak at the moment, doesn't matter what she's supposed to do. Jinx idk, I suppose it's too easy to keep her in line for the current meta to really go crazy, seeing as she is a late game champ.

YumScrumptious96Jan 18, 20171 votes

Ziggs is supposed to be a late game champion, yet he's easily better than Jinx in almost all stages.

ReZisT LustJan 16, 20179 votes

Sivir people just need to play her into him

SquashCannonJan 17, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=ReZisT Lust,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQTHQGoW,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-01-16T23:28:07.797+0000)

people just need to play her into him

Yeah but her gutting makes her feel shit to play as.

ReZisT LustJan 17, 20171 votes

I didnt feel that much of a difference you just use w and farm up, and ss the spells

AhristocatsJan 16, 20178 votes

it's almost as if first blood tower didn't break him

not only it broke him bot, but also mid, because ziggs destroys towers that what he does, and when he's mid chance that he gets the first blood tower are also high

RexSaurJan 16, 20175 votes

They need to remove his W tower execute, his passive alone already 2 shots towers when he has lich bane.

Sire HippingtonJan 16, 20174 votes

well, either we nerf his kinda identity and take away some of his tower killing potential, or we finally adress the fact that first tower = win in over 70% of the games. But as long as towers are that impactfull(when taken, not then alive), ziggs will be strong as his identity is takeing towers.

Best Kog NAJan 16, 20173 votes

Riot has no problem with taking away a character's identity and changing it and just giving up on it.

BlakiepugJan 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Kog NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQTHQGoW,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-01-16T23:46:55.644+0000)

Riot has no problem with taking away a character's identity and changing it and just giving up on it.

KogMaw

Best Kog NAJan 17, 20172 votes

That's what I was mentioning lol.

BlakiepugJan 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Kog NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQTHQGoW,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-17T04:14:06.690+0000)

That's what I was mentioning lol.

I know, I could tell by the name. XD

Sire HippingtonJan 17, 20172 votes

sad but true

Tribbles FoxfolkJan 17, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Kog NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQTHQGoW,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-16T22:19:53.942+0000)

We need to do something to nerf him. Right now he has a 55% winrate as an ADC over 6000 games (link 1), and a 54% winrate mid lane over 8000 games (link 2). This is the second highest winrate as an ADC (But the first place's stats have numerous problems with them eg: not enough samples, not enough playrate, heavy mains skewing the data) and the highest winrate as a Mid laner. But what's more concerning is the player experience by role for Ziggs ADC. For not a lot of in-game experience on Ziggs (Most of the games played is 1-5 games, with the rest being 5-50) the winrate is absurdly high.

link 1: http://champion.gg/champion/Ziggs/ADC link 2: http://champion.gg/champion/Ziggs/Middle

Remove First Blood Tower and Ziggs will likely vanish off the face of the Earth again.

Ziggs isn't even that strong right now, but he has a high winrate because of how overpowered FBT is. He needs BUFFS if anything.

ArakadiaJan 17, 20171 votes

Totally agree.

Dark NephthysJan 17, 20172 votes

Towers in general are to weak. It's sad when you are playing bot lane and you recall and the enemy bot laner can use 1 push to take your tower before you even get back, and I'm not just talking about Ziggs or other really strong tower taking ADCs like Tristana Jinx . It's also one of the main reasons why I never liked taking summoner 12 top lane. I'll still take it but it's annoying when you are afraid to teleport bot lane because 90% of the time if you teleported bot lane, your top lane turrets destroyed from full HP by the time teleported bot lane, ganked and recalled and head back to top. The only way it would be worth it is to hope you can get a kill and then transfer it over to a Tower + Dragon which not all the time works out that way.

OrangesilkJan 17, 20172 votes

But Jinx and have a pretty okay-ish winrate right now, definitely not broken, Tris is more on the weak side even, if this were about towers only, Tristana the queen of tower-pushing would have huge winrate.

This is also about how his great range and difficulty to punish him, while being in bot actually allows him to trade with his passive, allows him to snowball very early, it's not only raw pushing power, it's his insane laning as well.

AhristocatsJan 17, 20171 votes

compare their ability to take towers to ziggs bro

BlåbæretJan 17, 20172 votes

I've said it before that Ziggs is overpowered, it's just that no one was playing him. His tower-taking is stupidly overpowered. He pokes you out of lane and you will lose your tower in 10 seconds to a zero item Ziggs. His execute needs to go and his tower damage lowered by 50%. He doesn't need compensation either since the champ is ridiculously safe with zoning tools and high range.

An Undead bratJan 17, 20171 votes

A champion with insane burst Azir DPS Azir siege Azir zoning Azir poke Azir range Azir and good mobility and CC Azir broken? Sorry I can't see a problem Riot could have.

YumScrumptious96Jan 18, 20172 votes

Azir got gutted for it and people complained about him all season long, Ziggs is as overbearing while having a lower skill ceiling and floor, and people are begging for him to stay the same.