The key to balancing jungle is counter-intuitive.

Rewt··9 votes·7,243 views

The problem people have with the jungle role is that it seems to decide the outcome of the entire game. "better jungle wins gg"

So we keep looking at jungle with the wrong mindset. "Nerf Camp XP, Nerf catchup XP, Nerf gold". But where does that get us? It forces the jungle into a situation where farming their camps is reduced in effectiveness. So the while risky, Gank spamming is much more effective. But again it's not about the jungler getting so strong it's able to 1v9. It's about the fact that once the jungler gets ahead of the enemy jungler, He literally cannot compete. bringing the game into an effective 4v5 where one champ is fighting a massive uphill battle against his opponent and that has rippling consequences throughout the match.

My proposed fix is to buff camp xp slightly, and Crank catchup xp to 11. This is to stabilize the role. The jungler cannot have as much of an impact if the enemy jungler he is trying to shut down requires his constant focus to keep shut down. Because if your jungler can always catchup quickly to the enemy jungler, he will be able to counter gank without it just resulting in a triple kill, and will be able to pull off more powerful ganks of his own. Due to the early game nature of the champs that succeed in the jungle (exceptions exist ofc) This means that in many cases, if a jungler doesn't do well early it just fucks over the rest of his team creating an uphill 4v5. So what if we made it so jungle couldn't fall behind? They were always impactful. This would actually open up the ability to play late game junglers and would reduce early jungle effectiveness because you aren't pigeon-holed into early game junglers and even if you play one you can actually stay relevant for the whole game.

But in the end this is a question of snowballing. Do you like 15-25min games? Then you won't like my proposed changes as they are directly anti-snowball. But if you like the 30-50 min games then this is the best solution. This is a preference.

The Jungle as a role is an early game role. when its 35min in. Syndra isnt a mid laner, she is a mage. And the concept of jungler disappears after 20 or so min, and you are left with a champ of a given archetype with smite.

20 Comments

Kazekiba4 votes

How to make karthus have a 90% winrate

Rewt1 votes

champs will have to be adjusted but let's be honest here. That's nothing new.

Just give karthus a neutral monster damage penalty to kick his ass back to the lanes where he belongs.

preternatural3 votes

just increase the spawn rate of the camps. any jungler that wants to afk farm can afk farm and still be useful later. and junglers will still get rewarded more for ganking lanes.

Chainman35 votes

Honestly cut gold/exp but decrease spawn timers allowing junglers to go for heavy clearing to get ahead in gold and levels safely or heavy ganking junglers to play more high risk because if their ganks fails too often they'll fall far behind an afk farming jungler. While also forcing the afk farming jungler to clear constantly so he wont have time to gank lanes if he wants to clear effectively and be ready to clear his camps on respawn.

preternatural1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly cut gold/exp but decrease spawn timers allowing junglers to go for heavy clearing to get ahead in gold and levels safely or heavy ganking junglers to play more high risk because if their ganks fails too often they'll fall far behind an afk farming jungler. While also forcing the afk farming jungler to clear constantly so he wont have time to gank lanes if he wants to clear effectively and be ready to clear his camps on respawn.

exactly probably decrease camp dmg too if they're going down in gold value.

Chainman31 votes

Either way after the first clear, junglers wont have an issue clearing so the decreased dmg wont change much besides that first clear which even now most junglers can get through pretty healthy, but yea these would be the changes i want to see.

Each camp offering 50-60g Each camp respawning 45 seconds after it is cleared as opposed to the greater than 1 min respawns it is now. This would offer junglers like 250g per clear 300 with scuttle.

Laners get 90g every 30 seconds in the form of waves so 135 gold every 45 seconds with the chance of the 300g kill. With cannon wave that jumps to 195 gold in 45 seconds.

the gold income was 40-50g then every hard farrming jungler would fall behind naturally which wouldnt feel too rewarding to play.

This would turn early game junglers into high risk high reward as they should be like every other early game laner, and late game junglers would be safer but need time to scale just like late game champions. This would open the jungle back up to tanks like amumu sejuani and champions like trundle and olaf who dont have the best ganks but can be monsters when ahead.

Chainman33 votes

I have a couple issues with this. Where your first 2 paragraphs hit the nail on the head, you lost focus of what we're aiming for after that. You proposed fixes which didnt actually fix, but nullify the jungle. These changes would make the game based on the laners and the jungler would have no impact. Ill explain why.

  1. No reward to good play for junglers besides theirr lanes being ahead of the enemy lanes. They themselves wont be stronger, much like if one laner outplays another theyre rewarded with being stronger.

  2. Early game junglers would become unplayable, if no matter how much the jungle does they stay even then eventually they'll be outscaled and alot earlier due to not needing to play catchup.

  3. By buffing camp xp you're then promoting control of the jungle to overlevel yourself. Currently a jungler can keep up with solo laners in levels by full clearing effectively. If you buff camp xp and one jungler is controlling 3 quadrants of the jungle you'd easily have a jungler 1 to 2 levels above solo laners, imagine what that would do to your bot lane if he went bot at level 10 against a level 6 bot lane.

Rewt1 votes

Early game junglers shouldn't be about getting themselves ahead and shit stomping 1v9. They should be about making their lanes stomp. This doesn't make early game junglers useless, It makes them do what they are supposed to do instead of dominating the entire meta and the whole game. Late game junglers aren't played because there is such a tiny chance they actually make it there. The clear deviation should be that the Early game jungler is Lane focused, while the late game jungler is carry focused.

I said a slight bump not a full on super buff. The camps should be like they were in s5-6 where dominant control of jungle camps will put you roughly 2 levels ahead of bot lane, but to do this you need to be basically hard farming without regard for your lanes. For this to work tho they would need to reintroduce a scaling jungle item. Thing is this is a tradeoff. If you farm this hard, you are neglecting your lanes and that allows for the enemy jungler to be lane focused and get the rest of his team ahead it doesn't matter how strong you are.

Chainman31 votes

So what you're implying is a jungler should never be fed? Under your system late game junglers could get there. So we're not talking about the current system but your system.

But what are they farming currently you can full clear your jungle and still have 1 min to gank lanes. Thats the issue that 1 extra minute not buffing exp or falling behind off 1 gank.

LightswornLance1 votes

I actually really like what you said at the end. It makes me realize that when I'm playing graves I'm just an ADC that farms the jungle.

Chainman32 votes

What did you think you were before reading this?

LightswornLance1 votes

I played like an ADC but I just never really realized thats what I was.

Posui Gart1 votes

it's not about the jungler getting so strong it's able to 1v9. It's about the fact that once the jungler gets ahead of the enemy jungler, He literally cannot compete. bringing the game into an effective 4v5 where one champ is fighting a massive uphill battle against his opponent and that has rippling consequences throughout the match.

Same could be said about any lane, especially bot.

My proposed fix is to buff camp xp slightly, and Crank catchup xp to 11

So junglers can spend even more time ganking without losing exp? Sure, it will help losing jungler more than it helps winning one, but it still helps both of them. Junglers have too much xp/sec for clearing camps now, they can waste 2-3 mins ganking because then they will instaclear the whole jungle and get their exp back, and then they will have free time again to gank

And the concept of jungler disappears after 20 or so min, and you are left with a champ of a given archetype with smite.

Same with every other lane. It doesn't really matter if your Vayne was a botlaner or toplaner 25+ mins in the game, or if a Sion was a support or top, or if a Lux was a support or mid. Which is ok for me.

in my opinion, jungle is just a flawed role by design. They either win lanes(or help winning lanes win even more) by ganking, or they afk farm, depending on current meta. Both possibilities are unhealthy for the game and I have no idea what should they do instead that will be better for the game. At least ganking requires some skill and desicions, strategic(which lanes should i put pressure on?), tactical(when and how exactly should i gank this guy) and mechanical, and it also can be counterplayed a bit, so its better than the alternative

Titanium701 votes

It's not like JGL never seen healthy state before.

In Season 5 I played basicly nothing but League. And in my games back than I rarely felt completely at the mercy of the enemy JGL. If I was clearly better than my opponent I could use this skill-gap get ahead and 2v1 at some point.

Nowadays I have to surrender so many leads and see insane skill-gaps being completely irrelevant for the sole reason of JGL-difference. It's really sad to watch sometimes... and my #1 motivation killer to keep playing seriously.


  • I think the spawn timers just NEED to go down drasticly. (Exp/gold accordingly or slightly nerfed)
  • clear times need to go up
  • Trackers needs to come back as a supportive option. (or something similar)
CØulrophobia1 votes

The jungle at season 5 or 6 (I think cant recall correctly.) was the most well balanced state jungle was ever in. We had 4 different jungle items, each for a specific jungler, clear but versatile paths and balance between farming-ganking.

Paroe1 votes

Couldnt you fix the jungle by reducing monster stats, XP, gold, and respawn timers so we can have jungle diversity again? The way riots done the jungle its basically a "if you dont have built in sustain you cant farm effectively, and if you dont have mobility and burst you cant gank effectively". Changing THAT would go a really long way towards reducing the sheer power of the current jungle roster and bring variability back to league.

Rewt1 votes

The problem is if you nerf Monster XP and Gold, then it isnt worth it to farm the camps and you may as well spam ganks. And that is why we are here. Its not about sustaining through the jungle. Its about gank power. If camps were actually worth more than dirt then farming them would matter.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

The problem is if you nerf Monster XP and Gold, then it isnt worth it to farm the camps and you may as well spam ganks. And that is why we are here. Its not about sustaining through the jungle. Its about gank power. If camps were actually worth more than dirt then farming them would matter.

Due to changes in that regard, i disagree. If you reduce gold/xp but make the jungle respawn much faster you can farm more or not. The idea in reducing monster stats/gold/xp/repsawn timer would ideally give you MORE gold/XP if you were to focus on farming the jungle and much less if you were to focus on ganks.

It would both reduce the minimum requirements to jungle effectively and nerf gank happy junglers who take major camps then gank, ignoring most others.

Niggel Wessom1 votes

I really don't know if catchup xp is the solution bc then you just go back to farming your increased xp camps with catchup xp added onto it. Maybe keep xp low but gold value of camps high? Role seems hard to balance and km glad I'm just the one playing it

DBS Ronovon1 votes

I personally think the map stuff needs to left alone most of all, because if they keep changing it, it makes the game way less competitive and more of a random chaotic thing because where you should expect something to happen, now you have to guess and can't practice and master.

Just my thoughts on it. If the jungle on one side gets nerfed, then both sides get nerfed, and makes playing jungler less fun and less pay off, when no one wants to play that role to begin with and you're stuck with bad junglers or maybe one team gets a good one and just wins the game outright.

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