will riot ever look back on the updated champions that fail?

CasterGilgamesh·Dec 18, 2015·10 votes·1,144 views

i can think of two champions in particular whose updates fail miserably karma IS bad tho they forced her to be generic poke made.cass is out classed in DPS even though she is THEE poison mage and cass E spam is even Worse then it was before.no one likes the new karma besides people who never played old karma or heard of her. and sonas whole update was one Giant Nerf.cass is strong but worthless as the same time since you compare her to other DPS mids. they all have safer ranges and they all have DPS AS their Focus unlike Cass whose poisons are just an excuse to Spam twin fangs lolz plus her twin fangs force her to go into range.her power is heavily gated her passive giving her bonus ap is just a reason to ruin her ap scalings and because her twin fangs refunds her mana on killing targets it seems that riot sees no need to give her any compensation for removing mana pots.now on karma who is forced so hard to be a poke mage.all her fucking power is shoved into her Q damage that the rest of her kit now lacks any relevence.she constantly needs to get into range to have her mantra up by reducing its CD from her Auto attacks.she is so heavily punished for missing her Q its not even funny.also her other spells dont feel very good to use mantra with besides her Q and maybe her W.Karmas update was a failure as no one likes it or wanted it.

38 Comments

QuephaDec 18, 20154 votes

Karma and Sona were both great reworks. They're pretty fun champs with their own niches now.

Cass was the worst rework, her new kit just doesn't work and Riot has said she's in line for more changes next year.

Ashe wasn't a very good one, they ended up making her feel way more bland than her old kit while also just making her play feel way different to people that played her.

AMYS GRAVEDec 18, 20153 votes

Why would you pick Karma over lulu? Both serve poke+shield niches and lulu is better at it.

Why would you pick Sona over Nami? Both are poke+heal supports and Nami is better at it.

QuephaDec 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Why would you pick Karma over lulu? Both serve poke+shield niches and lulu is better at it.

Why would you pick Sona over Nami? Both are poke+heal supports and Nami is better at it.

Higher damage, group speedbuffs and shields. Karma is better against aoe damage. This is especially good compared to her old kit that just served no purpose at all.

For group buffs, Sona's auras are incredibly powerful in team fights. They don't even feel similar to play so I have no idea why you would compare them.

SlytherinUmbreonDec 18, 20154 votes

Except Karma's old kit had the same AoE shield, while not being 100% eclipsed by another champion... So um... Apparently, she had at least one strength. Oh, and her old kit had an AoE heal too. Even better vs AoE damage.

QuephaDec 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Except Karma's old kit had the same AoE shield, while not being 100% eclipsed by another champion... So um... Apparently, she had at least one strength. Oh, and her old kit had an AoE heal too. Even better vs AoE damage.

I was giving those attributes for what separated Karma from Lulu, not what separated her from her old kit.

Od karma was overall garbage because of how scatterbrained all her mechanics were, everyone had to be pretty much on top of each other for her numbers to not be horrible, now she has a nice poke and skirmish playstyle with some good utility.

AMYS GRAVEDec 18, 20151 votes

I'm not sure Karma has higher damage, i think they are comparable with the lulu passive and this is subject to how you choose to build them. Karma may be better against aoe damage, but only if you mantra your shield in which case you lose your improved damage from mantra-ing your poke. Lulu's poke is also aoe, although its a different shape because your glitterlance can be fired through multiple targets with two lances. Both serve the poke+shield niche.

The comparison between Sona and Nami is because both kits serve the same purpose. Sona has an aura heal, Nami has a multi target heal. Sona has an aoe move speed buff, Nami has a multi target move speed buff. Sona has multi target poke, Nami has multi target poke. Sona has an aoe stun, Nami has a larger but slower moving aoe knockup. Both are incredibly powerful in team fights. Their inputs feel different but their outputs are very similar and both serve the poke+heal+cc niche.

QuephaDec 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure Karma has higher damage, i think they are comparable with the lulu passive and this is subject to how you choose to build them. Karma may be better against aoe damage, but only if you mantra your shield in which case you lose your improved damage from mantra-ing your poke. Lulu's poke is also aoe, although its a different shape because your glitterlance can be fired through multiple targets with two lances. Both serve the poke+shield niche.

The comparison between Sona and Nami is because both kits serve the same purpose. Sona has an aura heal, Nami has a multi target heal. Sona has an aoe move speed buff, Nami has a multi target move speed buff. Sona has multi target poke, Nami has multi target poke. Sona has an aoe stun, Nami has a larger but slower moving aoe knockup. Both are incredibly powerful in team fights. Their inputs feel different but their outputs are very similar and both serve the poke+heal+cc niche.

You seem to be acknowledging a lot of differences between both pairs of champions.

I think even inputs feeling different is enough to distinguish a champion. There are about 130 in the game and there are only so many roles for them to feel. If the balance is to a point where people can pick a champion they like just because they like the inputs better, that's good enough.

AMYS GRAVEDec 18, 20151 votes

If their outputs are the same then one will strictly be better. They can feel different to play but there is a reason lulu and nami see competitive play while karma and sona dont. If you think they feel better to play then go for it, but understand that one will win more games than the other.

QuephaDec 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If their outputs are the same then one will strictly be better. They can feel different to play but there is a reason lulu and nami see competitive play while karma and sona dont. If you think they feel better to play then go for it, but understand that one will win more games than the other.

And with 130 champions that is unavoidable. And Karma and Sona do see pro play from time to time depending on how balancing works out.

AMYS GRAVEDec 18, 20151 votes

If you think similar outputs on champions is unavoidable then you don't have enough imagination for champion design. There is plenty of thought space to be explored without running into this problem. This is something that riot has been improving at recently if we look at a few of the most recent champion releases -

Kindred - a jungle marksman, forces her to aggressively invade early (which is her weakest phase of the game) if she wants to succeed. It also changes the play for the enemy team by forcing them to protect their jungle. Tahm Kench - eats allies and runs away. allows his allies to be more aggressive knowing they have an out if they get CC and knowing that there is a tahm on the other team means you have to think more about how you use your cc. Bard - magical journeys redefine how jungle chases go for everyone in the game. Rek'Sai - a new view on vision for all to play around. Kalista - a hyper mobile ADC, new and with her binding mechanic changes the way her, her teammates, and her enemies have to play.

I may have cherry picked these a bit but there is something you notice, they change how they play, their allies play, and their enemies play. If there is a sona or a nami on the enemy team you don't really care between the two because their ability to change how i play based on their presence in the game is minimal.

Also if Karma or Sona are picked in pro play i haven't heard about it any time recently...

QuephaDec 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Also if Karma or Sona are picked in pro play i haven't heard about it any time recently...

Karma's at about 3% in Master+ Sona at about 2% not great but not every champ can be popular all the time.

I haven't followed pro games much recently but I remember seeing a surprise Karma pick early this year, and I know there have been points where Sona was considered strong post-rework.

Maple CrusaderDec 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Why would you pick Karma over lulu? Both serve poke+shield niches and lulu is better at it.

Why would you pick Sona over Nami? Both are poke+heal supports and Nami is better at it.

I like to pick Karma sometimes because she can AoE shield/speed up her whole team. I pick Sona when I don't feel like aiming skillshots and when I need an AOE stun.

Remlap1223Dec 18, 20151 votes

Sona's rework was a complete failure. It wasn't a rework, it was a mega-nerf that front loaded all her power into her Q and gutted her W and E. It's gotten so bad that the same people who were whining about Sona needing a kajillion buffs are now calling her to be completely useless as a champion due to her indirect buffs to her mana. Hypocrisy and overkill at its finest, but just proves my point on how bad her rework was. She needs a real, well thought out rework, and a goddamn true VU as well.

You're also completely wrong on Ashe as well. I called her Trashe forever because she didn't have a passive outside of "I'm going to crit you once I get to lane, and then you'll forget I have a passive." The rework actually gave her a unique playstyle with the "always crit" passive, and got even better with the "critical slow." Trashe was a clunky mess that was all cost with no benefit. Postwork Ashe has a well defined niche without ridiculous hidden power that you couldn't meaningfully control.

I will agree that somehow Cass was the worst rework of the bunch. The Twin Fang machine gun was completely stupid. She's now at a 48% win rate because of mastery changes extremely favoring DOT mages, and still people don't want to play her because she's clunky and unintuitive. And oh God don't get me started on that fucking passive.

QuephaDec 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Sona's rework was a complete failure. It wasn't a rework, it was a mega-nerf that front loaded all her power into her Q and gutted her W and E. It's gotten so bad that the same people who were whining about Sona needing a kajillion buffs are now calling her to be completely useless as a champion due to her indirect buffs to her mana. Hypocrisy and overkill at its finest, but just proves my point on how bad her rework was. She needs a real, well thought out rework, and a goddamn true VU as well.

You're also completely wrong on Ashe as well. I called her Trashe forever because she didn't have a passive outside of "I'm going to crit you once I get to lane, and then you'll forget I have a passive." The rework actually gave her a unique playstyle with the "always crit" passive, and got even better with the "critical slow." Trashe was a clunky mess that was all cost with no benefit. Postwork Ashe has a well defined niche without ridiculous hidden power that you couldn't meaningfully control.

I will agree that somehow Cass was the worst rework of the bunch. The Twin Fang machine gun was completely stupid. She's now at a 48% win rate because of mastery changes extremely favoring DOT mages, and still people don't want to play her because she's clunky and unintuitive. And oh God don't get me started on that fucking passive.

Then Sona needed that mega nerf because her winrate is at like 53% now.

You called her trashe because you were an idiot. I got several passive procs throughout each game even while laning and they were pretty impactful. For a passive it had a solid amount of power.

Remlap1223Dec 18, 20151 votes

Then Sona needed that mega nerf because her winrate is at like 53% now.

Confirmed for idiot. Of course Sona is at a 53% winrate, she's always had a winrate that high because she isn't a difficult champion to play. By that logic we need to buff Orianna out the ass because she only has a 47% winrate. Or LeBlanc.

You called her trashe because you were an idiot. I got several passive procs throughout each game even while laning and they were pretty impactful. For a passive it had a solid amount of power.

You got several passive procs throughout the game because you went back to base and they charged up. And then the passive would never go unless you were a complete idiot and never farmed (which honestly from the way you sound right now isn't an assumption that far off).

QuephaDec 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Confirmed for idiot. Of course Sona is at a 53% winrate, she's always had a winrate that high because she isn't a difficult champion to play. By that logic we need to buff Orianna out the ass because she only has a 47% winrate. Or LeBlanc.

You got several passive procs throughout the game because you went back to base and they charged up. And then the passive would never go unless you were a complete idiot and never farmed (which honestly from the way you sound right now isn't an assumption that far off).

Then if her winrate didn't drop much it wasn't much of a nerf. It's weird that you criticize old Ashe for having hidden power when Sona was the textbook case of hidden power and they moved a huge source of her winrate (group buffs) from stat buffs into much more visible procs

I could definitely get procs in lane after the one I got from going out to lane. That should happen naturally a couple times as long as you were last hitting instead of just constantly firing. Not to mention that in the late game it ramped up so fast that basically any amount of time between fights meant you would guarantee that you'd start the next fight with a crit.

Remlap1223Dec 18, 20153 votes

Then if her winrate didn't drop much it wasn't much of a nerf.

Her winrate didn't drop much because she's still extremely easy to play. Warwick's winrate is on par of what it always has been before Weedwick after his kneecapping because he has an extremely low skill floor. Same goes for Sona. What they did for Sona is completely destroy her identity as the Aura Support for these shitty "snuggle zones", shit on her healing and movement speed buffs, and front load all of her power into her Q. She turned from an attrition mage into a cheesy feast and famine Q bot who is forced to build a decent amount of AP to do anything relevant past laning phase.

Sona's power wasn't "hidden". You could clearly see what Auras Sona had up and play accordingly. Blue? More AD and AP. Green? More armor and MR. Purple? More movement speed. I'm not saying old Sona was perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but she was a billion times better than the shit we got stuck with. Sona's rework was a failure because not only did it completely destroy her former identity, but it also solved zero of her gameplay issues. Cassiopeia and Ryze are in that same boat.

It's weird that you criticize old Ashe for having hidden power when Sona was the textbook case of hidden power and they moved a huge source of her winrate (group buffs) from stat buffs into much more visible procs

Just because it's visible doesn't mean it's better. I mean, a 0.5% increase for every 1% of missing health? Nobody's scaling is that low. Nobody. Full AP champs and full AD champs have better bases than that, and they build fucking damage. Sona doesn't even build AP (I shouldn't say that, she builds AP to function, not to scale). So you're taking the squishiest and unsafest champion in the game, taking away her range, her auras, her movement speed, her damage, and forcing her to build AP when she's not supposed to be farming.

Winrate tends to be really iffy with Sona due to her low skill floor, but I know from patch 5.20 her win rate was at 51%, but her playrate was only 3.35%. That means that only a dedicated playerbase is playing with the champion, and even then she's barely breaking even. Which means she was an extremely unattractive option then. Her being strong right now proves my point on how bad her rework is in that a small change to mana can turn her from garbage to powerful and then back again. Remind me again how that's a successful rework?

I could definitely get procs in lane after the one I got from going out to lane. That should happen naturally a couple times as long as you were last hitting instead of just constantly firing. Not to mention that in the late game it ramped up so fast that basically any amount of time between fights meant you would guarantee that you'd start the next fight with a crit.

That's my entire point! From all points in the game, all Ashe's passive was was a guaranteed crit once you got into lane, and then she didn't have a passive! Also, no, you did not get procs in lane, it was impossible unless you miss farm. It required Ashe to not attack for three seconds. And building up 4 focus per second, you would have to wait twenty seconds to crit. So I'm calling bullshit. Late game it was possible to crit like that, but the guaranteed crit was meaningless against a full build ADC, which would already have in the ballpark of a 50% chance to crit, so that extra gold value you get for being a guaranteed crit is meaningless when your opponent could easily do the same thing just based on a coin flip. Her passive was useless at all stages of the game. There is literally no real defense you can make for her old passive.

QuephaDec 18, 20152 votes

There are 3 second pauses between last hits even during a wave, and between waves there is a lot of time to build up stacks unless the enemy engages. I could definitely expect to get 2 or 3 procs before my first back unless the lane was very active. I think you just didn't pay attention because it definitely happens.

Remlap1223Dec 18, 20151 votes

No, you are spouting bullshit, and the only reason you're getting upvoted is because you're using a smurf or this thread is falling victim to circlejerking. Either way, there's no point in me trying to argue since I'm just wasting my time.

QuephaDec 18, 20151 votes

This denial though

Hayaishi2Dec 18, 20153 votes

karma isn't that bad and cass can be strong.

CasterGilgameshDec 18, 20153 votes

karma IS bad tho they forced her to be generic poke made.cass is out classed in DPS even though she is THEE poison mage and cass E spam is even Worse then it was before.no one likes the new karma besides people who never played old karma or heard of her. and sonas whole update was one Giant Nerf.cass is strong but worthless as the same time since you compare her to other DPS mids. Azir Malzahar they all have safer ranges and they all have DPS AS their Focus unlike Cass whose poisons are just an excuse to Spam twin fangs lolz plus her twin fangs force her to go into range.her power is heavily gated her passive giving her bonus ap is just a reason to ruin her ap scalings and because her twin fangs refunds her mana on killing targets it seems that riot sees no need to give her any compensation for removing mana pots.now on karma who is forced so hard to be a poke mage.all her fucking power is shoved into her Q damage that the rest of her kit now lacks any relevence.she constantly needs to get into range to have her mantra up by reducing its CD from her Auto attacks.she is so heavily punished for missing her Q its not even funny.also her other spells dont feel very good to use mantra with besides her Q and maybe her W.Karmas update was a failure as no one likes it or wanted it.

Hayaishi2Dec 18, 20152 votes

Cass is meant to be an AP Vayne, fighting in tight spaces like Vayne, she's not meant to fill the role Azir fits.

CanastusDec 18, 20151 votes

Except Vayne can peel effectively for herself while having access to a low cooldown gapcloser that even stealthes her. Her main mode of attack also don't cost her mana and enables her to kite forever while being able to switch targets at will without having to play some minigame beforehand. There isn't a single instance where this champion could lock herself out of battle for FIVE seconds just for screwing up a combo.

Cassiopeia is extremely unforgiving to play as and not rewarding enough for how many loops she has to jump through. She's an immobile, squishy, short ranged caster - that's pretty much a deathsentence, no matter how great your lategame may be. You'll be dead before getting off any of your damage.

Edge of DaybreakDec 18, 20152 votes

Fail is a matter of opinion. More people play karma now and she in general has a much better play pattern. I still dont get how the community wants riot to turn a dot mage into a dot mage with cass but one day I guess. Brand is a burst mage not dps.

aquaticwonderDec 18, 20152 votes

Karma is great please be quiet.

CasterGilgameshDec 18, 20153 votes

I know karma is Good but is everyone really happy as to how she is played?she is now a generic poke Mage.her old kit was very interesting one reason it didn't work so well then was gold income for supports was extremely bad at the time.

QuephaDec 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I know karma is Good but is everyone really happy as to how she is played?she is now a generic poke Mage.her old kit was very interesting one reason it didn't work so well then was gold income for supports was extremely bad at the time.

I enjoy playing new Karma. Compared to poke mages like Morg or Lux she feels very active when using her runspeed buff to try and hold a tether for the snare. I managed to get in a few games on old Karma before the rework and everything just felt blah. Like no matter what ability you pressed it just sort of gave small benefits for your team in an area to whatever it hit and it wasn't really worth the effort to think about it. Anyone who talked about actually having fun with her just posted videos where they would flash into melee range of a target and smash all the buttons for a 100-0 burst, not really a fun or interactive play style.

FeathermaneDec 18, 20152 votes

I doubt it, because most of them are failures. With the exception of Sion, no rework is an unequivocal success.

Remlap1223Dec 18, 20151 votes

You're Ashe right Darius can't Gangplank think Garen of Gragas one Nidalee champion Poppy that Rengar had Sion a Tristana successful MasterYi rework.

FeathermaneDec 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You're right can't think of one champion that had a successful rework.

Darius is horseshit, so is Rengar, some of the worst design choices around. Garen and Yi are the same + avenge gimmick and no ap scaling. Gragas is a boring tank whose viability is dependent on the state of other tanks, Poppy is too early to tell and very weak right now, and Nidalee is as hard to balance as she ever was. How can you even tell if Ashe is better than before, she's just different, and the best change about Trist is the visual update. I'll give you Gangplank, and I've mentioned Sion myself.

Troy242621Dec 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You're right can't think of one champion that had a successful rework.

Nidalee 42% winrate because she was still horrible to deal with and was re-nerfed MasterYi Didn't need changes and really plays the exact same when built AD Gangplank Cracked upside the head with the nerf bat, haven't seen him since Rengar Literally the exact same in every meaningful way Skarner Dismal failure Zilean Even worse than before Sion Massive success Ashe Successful Darius Well done Poppy Jury is still out Tristana Actually forgot she was reworked Gragas Kneecapped then forgotten about Kassadin Irrelevant changes proved irrelevant Fiora Eh. KogMaw Lol Quinn Still not used

Solidair3Dec 18, 20152 votes

Statikk touched on this in his dev corner thread, I recommend taking a look at that.

Long story short, they know they failed with Cass, they want to get back to her, but other champions need some love and they will get back to Cass when they can.

XonraDec 18, 20151 votes

They haven't looked back at many of them so far. Unless you count them trying to break a record for most nerfs on a champion after reworking them (Sona). I mean, they did rework Skarner TWICE and still can't get him right, so who knows.

CatastropDec 18, 20151 votes

You're very ignorant aren't you? You seem to think your opinion is the standard and that it's set in stone, but news flash, people actually like the Karma and Sona Reworks.

CasterGilgameshDec 18, 20152 votes

Prove that people are happy with karma once in a short time people talk about karma cass and sona.and for good reason because there is something wrong with them.Cass needs to land poison not because it's her sources of damage but just to brainlessly spam an undodgeble E this feels bad for cass because it puts her in range while it feels bad for the lame opponent since they can't dodge it and thus feel cheated by the lack of skil it takes this is what makes cass bad as she is very feast or famine.also you would think cass would be played more because of how well the mastery would work for a DOT/DPS Mage but she's still rare to see.and you want to know why? Because she is not worth playing besides enjoying her character.sona is only being played by her mains her whole "snuggle zone" bs on a squishy Mage support is very very bad.you might as well not call her an aura support being as you can't call them auras.as auras are persistent affects that passively give strength(stats) to allies.her Q only buffs one auto and her w heals only one target but it does give a shield but only once her W has such a pathetic range and has very little reason to level it up.sona ult has an increase mana cost if I remember per level lol for the same affect a tibbers stun or Nami Braum ult could do for cheaper and in a bigger area.

Just Blame JennyDec 19, 20151 votes

Never played old Karma. Maybe her old kit was way more awesome, but that doesn't make her new one bad. I find her pretty enjoyable to play, and she's definitely not weak. Heck, she's even seen some LCS play, albeit not recently.

There are reasons to take Sona over Nami. Her auras are useful, her passive is undervalued, her harass hits harder and can't be dodged, her ult is stronger in the right circumstances, and she hits like a truck when ahead. Perhaps her greatest weakness is that she falls off hard if not fed, but the addition of more support gold this season has helped her a lot.

Agreed on Cassie. She sucks. It's possible to do well with her, but the returns just aren't worth the effort.

CasterGilgameshDec 19, 20151 votes

well one argument i have about the sona thing is her update was a nerf that really didn't solve anything nami has two forms of cc pre6 and post 6 she has 3 as slow a knock up (bubble) and a knock up.while as for sona has an unreliable slow from her passive and a Stun from her ult.nami has a heal that can heal 2 allies or damage two enemies.sona has a small heal and shield but the shield health is small and short range her heal is small and medium range but only works on herself and one other ally.but for nami with enough ap her heal will heal for a % increase or damage for a % increased amount.sona's Q empowers her allies next auto but only once while nami can empower the next three autos now i know sonas is for the whole team but only if she tags them all and they might not even use the Q power up while nami can specifically target the ally attacking with autos.nami's ult is a knock up that can synergize with yasuo ult and it last long and starts moving from behind nami so even if someone like talon blinks behind her she will get him over sona and her stun also if nami ult hits allies she will give them a speed buff from her passive.also nami has better ap scaling and more base health.