I really like the idea of being this beefy guy taking damage and running into fights cock sure and head strong.
However right now its. Did they die while CC'd? Yes ---> GG WP. No ---> Looks like you get to die in the next 2-4 seconds.
I'd really love to live out my power fantasy of not being a squishy assassin that has cc.
Please and thank you Riot.
Moody P11 votesI've been saying it for months lad
LordGeovanni1 votesive been saying that the role concept of tank are more than CC for years. but they become less so every time riot nerfs Armor Health and Magic resist and buffs ap and crit. tanks arent even allowed to get 3 rounds of their spells off before dieing and that is severely wrong for the supposed tankiest class in the game compared to the supposed squishiest classes in the game adcs and mages. even assasins to because they get to go in get a kill and get a free excape.
Saevum1 votesIt's interesting that your Thread, suggesting tanks debuffs or auras did not had any upvotes, and yet, here we are with a similar topic, but with some little more upvotes and comment patricipation on the subject at hand.
Gotta love the Boards duality.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesIt's interesting that your Thread, suggesting tanks debuffs or auras did not had any upvotes, and yet, here we are with a similar topic, but with some little more upvotes and comment patricipation on the subject at hand.
Gotta love the Boards duality.
People are biased against Moody just because he likes Volibear.
Saevum1 votesBut then again, who plays Volibear these days.
Jinzo Torrance7 voteshttps://i.imgur.com/y8kSR4b.png[/img]
8k true damge (All in 2.5 secs).
Daddy Ants1 votes[{quoted}](name=Jinzo IRL,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEbanaey,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-02-16T18:06:13.335+0000)
https://i.imgur.com/y8kSR4b.png[/img]
8k true damge (All in 2.5 secs).
Fiora 60% true damage. Vayne 25%.
60%? XD
Wtf
TyroneWatermelon3 voteseither fake or 10k HP stoneplate active
Sire Hippington4 votesExactly, tank design needs to go back towards S2, when tanks usually had 1 string CC in the ult for initiation and one strong or two weaker CCs in the base, but more other utillity and more survivabillity(in the overall context of their kit, items and the damageoutput they faced)
Takeing a look at Malph for example, he has a big ult, the spamable slow Q and then strong extra utillity with his AS-slow, he doesn't lock you're as down for years all on his own, he doesn't have %max damage, and while his burst vs squishys is decent, without going AP he won't pop anyone. And imo it's fine when a tank can do a good chunk off a squishy, that's what you get for going glass cannon. What i'm not fine with is that every tank has %health damage to deal good damage vs other tanky targets, it's part off why tankiness feels so bad if even other tanks stay a real damage threat.
Or looking at some recent reworks:
Gallio going from a soft CC, a strong armor/mr buff, a aoe speedboost that also acelerated minions and his big ult into two hard CCs in his basekit with one more on the ult and lots of damage and no other form of utillity.#
Nunu went from a strong high uptime MS- AND AS-SLOW, a high uptime high value ally AS+MS boost and a strong aoe MS **AND AS-**slow to a knockup, a minor slow that can turn into an aoe root and a big aoe slow with some gimicky as/ms boost for an ally that is hardly noticeable.
They just keeo removeing unique forms of utillity, especially things like AS slow that would actually take some damage out of the game, and instead throw in more CC and damage, which results in tanks becomeing opressive whenever they are actually as tanky as they should be.
Iota Theta1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEbanaey,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-02-16T12:28:59.960+0000)
Exactly, tank design needs to go back towards S2, when tanks usually had 1 string CC in the ult for initiation and one strong or two weaker CCs in the base, but more other utillity and more survivabillity(in the overall context of their kit, items and the damageoutput they faced)
Takeing a look at Malph for example, he has a big ult, the spamable slow Q and then strong extra utillity with his AS-slow, he doesn't lock you're as down for years all on his own, he doesn't have %max damage, and while his burst vs squishys is decent, without going AP he won't pop anyone. And imo it's fine when a tank can do a good chunk off a squishy, that's what you get for going glass cannon. What i'm not fine is that every tank has %health damage to deal good damage vs other tanky targets, it's art off why tankiness feels so bad if even other tanks stay a real damage threat.
Amumu is annother good example, a singletarget skillshot stun in his base, big aoe ult for teamfights, and that's all the CC he needs, and then you have his passive to amp allied magic damage and his own dps. And yes, i know i complained about %hp damage on tanks above, but in amumus case it is(or was) his niche, he was the tank to take on other tanky targets and more like an AP bruiser, it was **his **thing and not a genral design strain for tanks.
Or looking at some recent reworks:
Gallio going from a soft CC, a strong armor/mr buff, a aoe speedboost that also acelerated minions and his big ult into two hard CCs in his basekit with one more on the ult and lots of damage and no other form of utillity.#
Nunu went from a strong high uptime MS- AND AS-SLOW, a high uptime high value ally AS+MS boost and a strong aoe MS **AND AS-**slow to a knockup, a minor slow that can turn into an aoe root and a big aoe slow with some gimicky as/ms boost for an ally that is hardly noticeable.
They just keeo removeing unique forms of utillity, especially things like AS slow that would actually take some damage out of the game, and instead throw in more CC and damage, which results in tanks becomeing opressive whenever they are actually as tanky as they should be.
I think there can be value in both styles, if balanced well. And Riot might agree, since, as far as I’m aware, Amumu is not a VGU candidate. I think his buggest issue is he’s better off building straight AP bruiser than tank. They can’t hurt you as much if you chunk their health.
The problem with old tank kits is, unless the other team is also attacking you, you can mostly ignore the tank. Amumu may debuff you, but if not one can hit you, he won’t feel like hems doing much. Whiff the ultimate and often times you have little way of stopping the enemy team. There’s also the Vanguard Warden discussion, where a Warden would likely need more CC for peel, while a Vanguard could use the more offensive utility, like an armor debuff or Brittle.
AS slows can function well, but they only work on aa based champs, and so when those are less prominent, it has less value. The reason i want Malphite (beyond his visuals) to get a rework is make his Q less reliable (and so possibly not cost him 1/4 of his mana), get power off his ult, make his W active a little better, and swap the AS for a different debuff. I don’t want him to be a 4 CC tank. Riot also seems to think something in Malphite’s kit isn’t hitting the mark if he’s, if I’m right, a tier 1 or 2 candidate.
There’s ways for tanks to reduce damage beyond AS slows though. Braum with his shield, for example. Maokai’s old ultimate. These are a bit less conditional on what champ is attacking you. There can be room for AS slows, but it has to fit. They also aren’t the most unique anymore when any tank could pick up Frozen Heart and a Cold Steel passive and get the AS slow that way.
But both can be balanced wth each other if done properly.
HyperTechno3 votesThe thing, IMO, when we are to define a tank, is usually the amount of CC and beef the champion has. Most tanks are interrupters, while bruisers are the damage dealers, having less or no CC. Which you described.
However, back in season 7 or 8, a big storm of bruiser players complained about how all the bruisers sucked (Mainly Harshinshin). Which then let to this big clusterfuck of power imbalance. Now, bruisers can be played Top, Jungle, Mid, and Bot, which made the ADC's miserable, which send in a big hell storm of crying ADC players, because they got hit with a huge over nerf and bruisers are beefy and deals damage. The most frustrating thing is, who gets the blame? Of course mages and assassins. When it is all the bruisers and the fucked up top and jungle.
Conquorer was created because of the Bruiser storm. Everything wrong with the game, right now, we can thank the Bruiser players for. Everything is garbage, because of bruisers. We went back to the toxic ADC meta, because of bruisers.
But what do I know, it is not like I keep up with pros, coaches, Riots balancing team, and that I have been playing this game for 5 years. But, again, what do I know, right.
GL HF
MankeyMadness1 votesThe thing, IMO, when we are to define a tank, is usually the amount of CC and beef the champion has. Most tanks are interrupters, while bruisers are the damage dealers, having less or no CC. Which you described.
However, back in season 7 or 8, a big storm of bruiser players complained about how all the bruisers sucked (Mainly Harshinshin). Which then let to this big clusterfuck of power imbalance. Now, bruisers can be played Top, Jungle, Mid, and Bot, which made the ADC's miserable, which send in a big hell storm of crying ADC players, because they got hit with a huge over nerf and bruisers are beefy and deals damage. The most frustrating thing is, who gets the blame? Of course mages and assassins. When it is all the bruisers and the fucked up top and jungle.
Conquorer was created because of the Bruiser storm. Everything wrong with the game, right now, we can thank the Bruiser players for. Everything is garbage, because of bruisers. We went back to the toxic ADC meta, because of bruisers.
But what do I know, it is not like I keep up with pros, coaches, Riots balancing team, and that I have been playing this game for 5 years. But, again, what do I know, right.
GL HF
Its not bruisers faults that Riot made crit scale poorly and cost 8600g. Nor is it our fault ADCs are played by whiny 12 year olds who want to play pve and never lose and always be the mvp but never want to work for it or get good first.
Done252 votesWait. Do you want them to be more than CC, to last longer, or to have less damage? I'm confused...
The entire team5 votesFrom what I got, he wants tanks to be immortal, yet not rely on CC to kill people. Basically he wants a tank meta.
xDogMeatx5 voteshe wants tanks to exist beyond CC not pure damage exactly he wants that if i run out of CC what good am i? if only during my cooldowns are on i can gain passives to slow down the enemy attack speeds or passively lower their damage so you still have presence.
Ragnaveil4 votesWhat doesn't make sense is why should a very durable class of champs have % max health damage in the first place? I get you dont want a tank slap fest, but at the same time that damage doesnt need to be EXTREMELY HIGH. Mao's is fine considering its on E instead of W, but other champs have it worse.
xDogMeatx3 votesmore like a passive AOE like frozen heart when your attacks are on cooldown. so you still have some presence if they decide to ignore you due to your poor damage output. strong if of course
Iota Theta2 votesWhat doesn't make sense is why should a very durable class of champs have % max health damage in the first place? I get you dont want a tank slap fest, but at the same time that damage doesnt need to be EXTREMELY HIGH. Mao's is fine considering its on E instead of W, but other champs have it worse.
It’s pretty much only for those tank vs tank, but it also prevents bases from getting out of hand against squishier targets.
Maokai’s example is a good example of implementation, it’s a valuable damage stat, and it’s tougher to hit, but he does get rewarded for it. Ornn held a similar example, but of type in %current on his W, so it started stronger but it’s strength tapered off. It was also spread out over the duration so you could reduce the total amount by escaping the fire breath. Biggest issue with ornn’s was it was tied to the ability that was also his defensive steroid.
There seem to be ways to make it worthwhile in fighting tanks/tankier targets and while not being an issue in the long run of consistently outdamaging.
LordGeovanni4 votesI agree but its really stupid tank versus tank fights should rightfully last longer and if a squishy has the bad judgement to allow a tank to get up on them they deserve to get killed with high tank damage from low range spells. They like to talk about how much more skillful their roles are then use your skill to not die. % hp damage on the whole is a bad stat that Shits on tanks investment into tank stats just like Penetration and true damage. Its okay with Penetration if they use really small amounts and Flat penetration items dont match up to over 1/4 of most tank items ( on lone items)
SweedishGunner1 votesYeah I was getting nearly one shot by a Tahm support today, if tanks are gonna be tanker then they can't be one shotting squishies.
Iota Theta1 votesYeah I was getting nearly one shot by a Tahm support today, if tanks are gonna be tanker then they can't be one shotting squishies.
I..don’t quite buy that. He has to auto you three times to get to his max damage, get a devour, restack the autos..it’d take time. How long did he sit on you?
SweedishGunner1 votesAuto, Q, auto and devour. I didn't get it either but a full tank support was nearly 100 to zeroing me.
LordGeovanni2 votesThis is really stupid. People dont want tanks to not die quickly despite it being right there in there in their names. will use Adcs and mages should instagib everything because its right their in their names despite neither of them have anything to do with instakilling anything or even doing damage lots of damage. Both both of those classes names are about how they deliver their damage rather than how much damage they do.
Iota Theta13 votesWait. Do you want them to be more than CC, to last longer, or to have less damage? I'm confused...
I think he wants them to last longer, and offer more utility than just straight CC. Currently tanks are all defense and CC, lockdown the target and hope your team kills them in time. While utility can add different elements, like Amumu’s Cursed Touch, Ornn’s Brittle, or like Taric’s shielding or Maokai’s old ult on the defensive side.
edit: I will add, this is at least what I want. I’ll take less damage to champs if necessary.
GigglesO10 votes[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEbanaey,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-02-15T16:36:15.000+0000)
I’ll take less damage to champs if necessary.
They dont need to deal that much damage if they have tools to survive and help their teammates.
It actually just feels like shit playing tanks right now because they just don't do anything but cc and damage.
Iota Theta3 votesThey dont need to deal that much damage if they have tools to survive and help their teammates.
It actually just feels like shit playing tanks right now because they just don't do anything but cc and damage.
See, this is why I loved early life cycle Ornn. His damage wasn’t the greatest but I could work in lane, building up to survive teamfights. He had CC as an initiator (even then, not the most reliable), but his shield allowed him to survive longer, his Unstoppable at the time could keep him in the fights, and it was immensely satisfying to set up Brittle for an ally to proc (enjoyed that more than proccing it with an auto). Should’ve focused him more around that than his damage.
I’d love more utility options on tanks. They might need some CC for engage or peel, but they definitely would benefit from more utility.
LordGeovanni1 votesEarly Life Cycle Orrn was good in that he didnt immediately win everything but he was bad in that he fell off as soon as you and your opponent started maxing your second spell. My opinion was always that its because he had No way to secure his mid game since all 3 of his scaling damage spells scaled off of different stats.
Iota Theta1 votesEarly Life Cycle Orrn was good in that he didnt immediately win everything but he was bad in that he fell off as soon as you and your opponent started maxing your second spell. My opinion was always that its because he had No way to secure his mid game since all 3 of his scaling damage spells scaled off of different stats.
And this is where you and I will disagree yet again. Because Ornn is a tank, and like other tanks, it doesn’t really matter what their abilities scale on, they should be running as a tank. Very rarely do tanks build a damage item of their scaling in order to “secure” their midgame. They built resistances so they could do what they were built to do. That was Ornn’s best way of being built as well. His scalings on abilities are really meaningless unless you are trying to build their respective stats. But if you build him with the focus of tank, like other tanks, he’ll still end up with next to nothing in his scalings outside of runes. And when built in such a way, he played fine, and was quite effective.
LordGeovanni2 votesThe reason Orrn's Scaling were important is because other tanks had the option to get more damage through ap while orrn doesnt even have access to this option he had less base damage than most tanks for his spells being aoe longer cooldowns than the average tank and much more clunkyness pulling him out of being able to auto attack and delaying his spells cast before they actually did anything.
Iota Theta1 votesThe reason Orrn's Scaling were important is because other tanks had the option to get more damage through ap while orrn doesnt even have access to this option he had less base damage than most tanks for his spells being aoe longer cooldowns than the average tank and much more clunkyness pulling him out of being able to auto attack and delaying his spells cast before they actually did anything.
Yes tanks have that option, though it comes at a cost of durability.
We’re going to just have to agree to disagree and part ways. I am dead set on my opinion in these instances, because I feel it’s for the best.
Ornn was pretty much designed as pure tank in mind back then. But tanks are meant to have large damage, and personally, the fact Ornn had less damage was what I loved. As a comparison, my first champ purchased was Malphite, and I have a hard time playing as him now because 1) he doesn’t have as much to contribute to fights. An MS slow which doesn’t mean as much against all the mobility, and an AS slow, which is only good against one class of champs (he’d be a good candidate for an armor breaking debuff), and 2) once I learned his AP values, especilly 100% AP on ult, I was disgusted. Part of this comes from what experience I have from MMOs, in that when I play a tank, I know I’m dealing the least damage, and aggro tools and debuffs are my best friends. That’s what I expect as a tank, and was why I enjoyed Ornn so early on, because his kit was more tank focused in disruption, CC, a debuff, and his damage was much lower.
DarwinTheory2 votesChogath says HI!!!!!
chogath can has less MR/Armour and maybe a little more health than Garen but can still be infinitely tankier requiring the whole team to 5 v 1 him.
Why? Numbers don't add up.
Search me. I'm starting to think lol has hidden numbers. Hence why death recap never works.........
But Chogath your man if you want that fantasy.
LordGeovanni1 votesI also belive Lol has hidden numbers though I dont think Cho is tankier than garen just that he does more damage faster than garen.
Critmaster Garen1 votesI also belive Lol has hidden numbers though I dont think Cho is tankier than garen just that he does more damage faster than garen.
chogath feels tankier because he sustains better in combat, and has similar damage as garen while offering more cc.
so its not just that you have a lot of defense, but the enemy cant damage you while hes cced. and that is also extra time that cho can use to deal damage and regenerate health.
LordGeovanni1 voteschogath has 0 in combat sustain unless you fight in a wave on minions. to which everyone with a brain would go why would you fight in minions. Dont forget that garen just has out right more defenses than other melees because of his W and damage resistance on it too.
Critmaster Garen1 voteschogath has 0 in combat sustain unless you fight in a wave on minions. to which everyone with a brain would go why would you fight in minions. Dont forget that garen just has out right more defenses than other melees because of his W and damage resistance on it too.
garens w buys him 6 seconds at max rank. his base health is shit for a juggernaut. for some reason garen has 200 health less than the rest of them. armor and magic resistance become worth more, the larger the champions health pool is.
its not just chogath passive. with a massive health pool, and items like spirit visage, grasp of the undying, and second wind heals for a shitton.
i play both champions, and cho is definitely tankier while dealing similar damage as garen.
MankeyMadness1 votesChogath says HI!!!!!
chogath can has less MR/Armour and maybe a little more health than Garen but can still be infinitely tankier requiring the whole team to 5 v 1 him.
Why? Numbers don't add up.
Search me. I'm starting to think lol has hidden numbers. Hence why death recap never works.........
But Chogath your man if you want that fantasy.
Because Garen doesn't get 750 health for free on his ult. Nor is he buying the item that doubles your base and bonus HP.
EthreainAmbusher1 votesChogath says HI!!!!!
chogath can has less MR/Armour and maybe a little more health than Garen but can still be infinitely tankier requiring the whole team to 5 v 1 him.
Why? Numbers don't add up.
Search me. I'm starting to think lol has hidden numbers. Hence why death recap never works.........
But Chogath your man if you want that fantasy.
Death recap never works because it's the collective of how much damage a certain ability / abilities did, not the 3 most damaging ones / what killed you.
Atmosphere2 votesIf tanks aren't all CC, there's no reason to attack them. If there's no reason to attack them, they're useless. Buffing an ally is useless if that ally gets one shot because the tank has no CC
GigglesO2 votesBlocking skill shots for the team would be nice.
Atmosphere1 votesIt would be nice, sure, but why would you ever shoot a tank with skillshots if you can take any other flank and completely bypass them? Or use ranged abilities and autos and just completely ignore them? Like sure, Ezreal won't be as good, but every other ADC will be fine. Sure maybe Ahri won't be good, but most other mages will be fine.
GigglesO1 votesSure you could flank them, but that makes it more difficult than just burn through the frontline tank.
Tanks yes should have some damage to keep them as a threat, but they shouldn't nuke squishies, and squishes shouldn't nuke them.
RavenMagus2 votesDon't worry, they're slowly adding extra damage to all the tanks. Soon enough "tank" will be redefined as "assassin with more cc"
GigglesO1 votesI don't get it
- builds ap
- builds hp
MankeyMadness1 votesTanks being anything other than CC machines is bad. Everyone and their dog has knockups now and of course mages carry CC too, but CC should be the tanks main or ONLY job. % max health damage helps them in lane and sustain passives make them vulnerable to burst but immune to poke. Its actually fair when you balance them like that, but then we get Mao-untargetable while CCing your entire team and dropping 600 dps-kai and thats all out the window.
Hemulen Magi1 votesI would like to see more debuffs like 
's Q (though Trundle isn't strictly a tank) which reduce an opponent's damage output. I think there is room in the champ lineup for both a debuff tank and debuff + DOT (plague-themed) enchanter/controller.
huhndog1 votesIkr! Playing 
is so rough sometimes. After all your cc in a fight and then be completely useless because you do no damage.
Kaisha1 votesNope, only devs favorites get to live out their power fantasies, the rest of us are simply here to be the 'cannon fodder' for the 1000'th Yasuo...
Daddy Ants1 votesIf they lose some damage, sure.
