What if Rylai's worked a little bit differently?

Deep Terror Nami·Nov 23, 2016·25 votes·1,393 views

Occasionally I see people upset about Rylai's being too strong, so I figured I'd throw out a random idea for changing how it worked (though I'm sure it's been proposed before);

Let's say it works on a charge system similar to Statikk Shiv or Deadman's Plate. While moving, casting, or attacking you gain charges. When you reach 100 stacks your damaging abilities slow targets for a few seconds.

Too weak? Increase the stack rate, duration, or slow amount. Too strong? Decrease them.

Too prevalent on fast casting champions (like Eve vs. Veigar)? Higher stack gain for higher mana costs.

No need to mess with the AP/HP stats.

42 Comments

WoonStruckNov 23, 201611 votes

So you'd keep it an issue on all of the champions its being bought on while gutting it for all of the core users?

Revert slow to pre-rework. Revert AP/HP.

35/15/10% was fine for single/aoe/dot. 500 HP, 80 AP was fine, and actually felt like a trade-off compared to other AP itemization. Should probably be 60 or 70 AP now.

StephenizgodNov 23, 20166 votes

See this is what I keep saying... Rylais was never a problem before, then they messed with the AP itemization by nerfing high AP items and buffing Rylais. Its almost as if they wanted it to be built on every AP champion ever, when it should have remained as it was.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20161 votes

No, its AP should have been nerfed along with every other AP item, while the HP got buffed. Somewhere around 60 or 70.

If it still had 80 AP while most other AP items did as well, it would still be must-buy because of how free it makes most mages' kits.

StephenizgodNov 23, 20161 votes

I think its old stats were fine, the issue is that other AP items were nerfed, 80 AP is a lot of AP nowadays. It would need to be lowered or other AP items would need to be raised. My point was not specific amounts of AP, it was that old Rylais in its state was balanced (there were higher Ap items and it was a situational buy on most mages).

WoonStruckNov 23, 20161 votes

Yes, I was just saying that it would likely still be an issue if it had 80 AP currently.

How they changed the passive is a large part of that.

StephenizgodNov 23, 20161 votes

Ye they should have just left that item alone :(

xxxMadLionxxxNov 23, 20164 votes

there are a lot of thin that can be done. Riot just likes to gut anything that become popular

StephenizgodNov 23, 20164 votes

OOOORRRRR We could just revert the buffs they made to it. Before they gave it 100 AP and then nerfed all other AP items, Rylais was never a big issue. It was core on a few champions like Rumble, Malzahar, Brand, etc. (and Morde, can't forget him or the "morde mains" will flame me) but thats because they were immobile and needed the utility and the tankiness rather than the damage. Then they buffed Rylais and suddenly not only do those champions become way too strong, but also other champions such as Syndra, start building it and become too strong. Then they nerfed all the original core users of Rylais who were now too strong with it...

All I am saying is no one cared about Rylai's before them buffs, now it is a problem after the buffs. No one seems to see how these two things are related. Why rework it? Viktor, Syndra, Veigar, etc shouldn't be building it anyways! It isn't meant for them, it needs to be undesirable to them. Lower its AP so they won't want it anymore, then the champions like Morde, Malz, Brand, Rumble can have their core item back.

HazyCloud7Nov 23, 20164 votes

This is totally false, the rioter who worked on viktor in MYMU has said Viktor is someone Rylai's should be a viable option for.

Don't lump him in with Veigar and Syndra who have far more reliable CC. Viktor's only CC is on an unreliable zone control ability that has a cast time and an arm time, and people can typically walk right out of it. It's great in teamfights but in lane its mostly a zone control tool.

StephenizgodNov 23, 20162 votes

Ok... that doesn't make my comment "totally false" it just means Viktor was thought to be a Rylai's builder when he was being reworked... HOWEVER it doesn't mean he should be building it.... He has high burst and range along with decent CC (as you stated it is great at zoning which combined with his long range makes him pretty hard to lane against), no one really uses his ult to chase people down, they use it to basically finish people off then zone others. So in that sense, I don't think he should be building Rylais, that item is for immobile mages like Malzahar or Morde to chase their enemies down (i understand Malzahar has his ult but current state of malzahar focuses more on his W rather than his R).

HazyCloud7Nov 23, 20162 votes

Is that why every viktor main builds it as a first item and why every professional viktor player built it as a first item (not including hexcore)? His CC is not decent. It's non-existent outside of teamfights. Whether you think he "should be" building it or not is irrelevant, the guy that reworked him and actually works for riot is a more credible source, and the pros building it consistently on him are as well.

The delay on his deathray aftershock + 2 second tick rate on his ult after the rework make the slow a very necessary tool for him, and after the nerfs it is very likely that the item will remain core on him as long as that stats are not garbage.

Some champions built Rylai's for the item efficiency (syndra & orianna) and some of them built it and will continue to build it for the passive.

StephenizgodNov 23, 20163 votes

See this is a misunderstanding, you are confusing my words.

I don't think Viktor should build Rylais, i did not say he doesn't build Rylais. It was not intended for a champion like how he turned out to be. I believe when he was being designed, his Ults DoT was more prominent, that he would be using it to chase down foes. However current Viktor tends to just insta-burst his opponents with insane amounts of damage and mostly uses the ult as a zoning tool. Viktor also has long range with high damage, so he doesn't really need Rylais. However pros build it on Viktor for the same reason they build it on champions like Syndra... because why not? it has 100 AP, gives utility and tankiness and builds off of Needlessly Large Rod so its build path doesn't hinder their damage spikes. Basically the item is too damn good right now, it offers too much and can be built on any mage in the game without sacrificing anything.

This is different than a champion like Morde who requires it to actually do anything.

HazyCloud7Nov 23, 20161 votes

I understand, and I believe he should be building it because of passive not merely because of the cost efficiency. Here's a simple way to see if he's only building it for the efficiency or if its because the passive is very valuable:

After the upcoming Rylai's nerfs go live, I'm willing to bet as long as the item provides ~80 AP it will continue to be a core part of his meta build even if its less cost efficient. The slow, even at 20%, is too valuable not to include in his build. Without a slow its nearly impossible to land the aftershock on a non CC'd target no matter how well you aim it. It's more of a question of whether your lane opponent is aware that there's a 1 second delay aftershock.

StephenizgodNov 23, 20162 votes

Ok difference of opinion I guess, I don't know what got you so triggered, but i was just stating my opinion.

That proves nothing, I explained it in my original comment. The rise of Rylais is 2 parts: Part 1) Buffs to Rylais and Part 2) Nerfs to many high AP items making it one of the few items that give decent amount of AP.

With 80 AP it will still be on par with the other AP items, its utility and tankiness without sacrificing damage are what make it so powerful. They would need to buff other AP items to make them more appealing for burst mages.

HazyCloud7Nov 23, 20161 votes

It's just really frustrating to see so many posters on this board say "so and so" shouldn't be purchasing Rylai's definitively.

80 AP would be a trade off. Morello, Ludens, Deathcap would all provide more AP, and Lich bane/Void staff would provide more burst as well because of their passives. 80 AP is the number I threw out but the underlying point I'm trying to get across is that he builds it for the utility of the passive, not the item efficiency. Heck I'd still build it at 70 AP.

StephenizgodNov 23, 20163 votes

I wasn't calling Vik OP or anything, I just think he is one of the champions that abuse Rylai's. Its just an opinion though.

I think if it had 60-70 AP it wouldn't be built as much on Viktor, but we will see once the changes come out.

HazyCloud7Nov 24, 20161 votes

I believe he builds it for the utility but we we will indeed see. I apologize for coming off as passive aggressive, thanks for being so civil.

StephenizgodNov 24, 20162 votes

No worries mate, I did learn a bit about Viktor though, I didn't realize he used the Utility so much. I thought he was abusing it.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20161 votes

If it has to provide at least 80 AP for him to buy it, then he's buying it for the wrong reasons.

HazyCloud7Nov 23, 20161 votes

Here's Viktor's MYMU designer's thoughts on it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5ed34q/riot_axes_on_the_rylais_nerf/dabpe3z/

my hope is that he'll still feel comfortable buying the version we're planning for 6.24 but that he'll also feel a bit more room to make the decision to get an earlier deathcap or lichbane when the scenario isn't prohibitive.

Whatever stat nerfs they ended up going with, clearly they are fine with him building it. He builds it for the passive, not the item efficiency.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20161 votes

A) Designers are very, very, very often wrong.

B) Old Viktor was built as a tanky AP bruiser, and was considered a viable toplaner even. New Viktor is nowhere close to old Viktor in his use of Rylai's. Rylai's, pre-rework for both him and the item, was much healthier than he is now with it. The problem is that they pigeon-holed him into buying it now with his new ult mechanics.

HazyCloud7Nov 23, 20161 votes

It's not just any designer though, it's the lead designer on his rework. I'm inclined to think he's a very credible source because of that, and also because his other comments in that thread make it evident that he was apart of the ongoing Rylai's discussion the balance team has been having since they announced they would be taking a look at it.

We will agree to disagree. I apologize for coming off as passive aggressive.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20162 votes

Lead designers are not necessarily credible. They are simply either successful or they are not in any given instance. Please look at Morde, Skarner, Ryze, Azir, Kalista, etc. Bonus points if you can name the designer. So many of them have a terrible rep when it comes to reworks.

Rioters do not have nearly as much forethought regarding balance changes as you'd believe. A lot of the time they're just guessing, not making educated decisions to trim away at excess power.

How often do you see it that X thing is nerfed while Y is the only problem, not the champion's kit as a whole like they seem to believe? Yes, keeping strengths intact while mitigating other areas of a kit can work, but unless that 'strength' is the entire niche of the champion, its rather foolish to do so.

As far as Vik being locked as a Rylai's user, its because they balanced his new ult around buying it. His new ultimate is actually worthless outside of initial burst if you don't buy it, and the designer working on him knew this. And that's a large part of the reason why you shouldn't trust the thoughts of the designer that worked on him.

FluffySoxOfDoomNov 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

OOOORRRRR We could just revert the buffs they made to it. Before they gave it 100 AP and then nerfed all other AP items, Rylais was never a big issue. It was core on a few champions like Rumble, Malzahar, Brand, etc. (and Morde, can't forget him or the "morde mains" will flame me) but thats because they were immobile and needed the utility and the tankiness rather than the damage. Then they buffed Rylais and suddenly not only do those champions become way too strong, but also other champions such as Syndra, start building it and become too strong. Then they nerfed all the original core users of Rylais who were now too strong with it...

All I am saying is no one cared about Rylai's before them buffs, now it is a problem after the buffs. No one seems to see how these two things are related. Why rework it? Viktor, Syndra, Veigar, etc shouldn't be building it anyways! It isn't meant for them, it needs to be undesirable to them. Lower its AP so they won't want it anymore, then the champions like Morde, Malz, Brand, Rumble can have their core item back.

They have already nerfed so many AP on items I'd rather they fix something with the slow than the stats because it's one of the few items that gives a 100 nowadays [slayer-jinx-unamused]

StephenizgodNov 23, 20162 votes

They can just buff other Ap items? I think if they nerf the slow, champions that rely on it will be hurt worse than the champions abusing it. Its always the case, champions build an item they are not suppose to, item gets nerfed, its intended champions are indirectly nerfed because of it, chaos ensues as their mains take up their torches and pitchforks demanding Riot's Balance team kill themselves, champions are buffed, they are too strong, cycle continues on for several patches until it is basically reverted through so many buffs/nerfs.

Big LincolnNov 23, 20163 votes

but i don't like those mechanics on shiv/luden's to begin with

why would I want it on rylai's when it's supposed to be a consistent item

CubíxNov 23, 20161 votes

I think thats a good way to make it work, but while I was reading I thought of this.

Why not make it apply a stack based on repeated spells, like as in stacking like 5%-10% per spell/magic damage dealt and then add a limit like 40% like it already is . That way you have champs that should build it like Azir, A.sol, Taliyah who all have easy ways to land magic damage (soldiers, stars, etc.) will still be able to use the item effectively, where as burst mages like Syndra or Veigar will have killed the person if they landed all of their spells, so the slow won't be as effective on them.

Rylai's should work better for long term fighting mages and dps mage allowing them to control teamfights while burst mages, may still get a 5% slow, won't be able to do the same.

HazyCloud7Nov 23, 20161 votes

Not enough control over when you can use it. You can't just hold it forever because you need to waveclear. That would lead to a lot of really crappy moments where you want to engage on somebody but don't have the slow available because you just used it while clearing a minion wave.

SSJTribeNov 23, 20163 votes

Hey, weird, meaningful choices? No wayyyyyy!

Shadow HazardNov 23, 20161 votes

This would be a very harsh nerf to the users that rely hard on the item

Deep Terror NamiNov 23, 20161 votes

That is exactly how it shouldn't be.

Shadow HazardNov 23, 20161 votes

That is like saying there should be an icd on black cleavers armor shred because there are some users that rely hard on the item.

DemainaNyxNov 23, 20161 votes

It all depends on what you are doing.

For most mages that burst, I'd use Luden's cause it makes the most sense to make the burst stronger and gives them some movement speed to help. Lux can use it really well for instance.

However, Rylia's on Lux wouldn't really do much. Her QE are stuns/slows already, and it would only really apply on her ult, which generally you use to kill people so no need to slow them. Yeah, the health might be good, but she's still a long range mage, no need to get that close really. And yeah, the slow would apply on her snapping her E closed, but again, you could just leave it open and accomplish a similar task.

Then you have people like Vel'koz. Yeah, he can burst because of his new passive, but he also takes time to do damage with his ult, so the slow can benefit him more. Same with Brand and the synergy with his ult (kit too, but let's ignore that for now). Keeping two targets closer together for longer makes his ult do more damage compared to most mages who just need their ult to hit to kill someone.

BakedLotionNov 24, 20161 votes

or we can just buff ludens :^)

Teridax68Nov 24, 20161 votes

A Luden's-type effect could definitely work, and you could even have some kind of baby Luden's component a la Kircheis Shard to connect both Luden's Echo and Rylai's (e.g. "build charges by moving and casting, and at 100 your next spell deals bonus damage," which then branches into either a slow or an AoE). A windowed effect would allow the slow to be far more powerful, and would be a lot easier to balance around every champion, since it wouldn't be as heavily dependent on cooldowns for high uptime. One thing to consider, though, is that Rylai's is typically an item favored by low-mobility AP champions who need it for its kiting/sticking power, so the dependence on movement might potentially work against it to some extent.

Another issue to consider is how its niche currently competes with Hexteck GLP-800: both are tanky AP items that provide crowd control, the only difference is that the Hextech item also has mana, which doesn't sit well with the likes of Mordekaiser, Rumble, Vladimir, etc. An alternative might be to scrap Rylai's completely, but instead rework GLP's build path so that it no longer includes a Catalyst or mana, which would make it the go-to tanky AP/CC item for everyone. For AP champions looking for a Catalyst item, Rod of Ages would be their best option, so it would not deprive mana champions of the option to pick a valuable sustain passive..