Why can you only damage Jack-in-a-Boxes if you have vision over them.

Agidyne·Apr 5, 2015·83 votes·4,621 views

I don't really get this design philosophy.

Imagine you are Twisted Fate.

If you throw Wild Cards at a Box Position, but you don't have Vision over the Box, Wild Cards won't deal any damage whatsoever.

However, if you thow Wild Cards at the Box, but with Vision over the Box itself, Wild Cards will deal damage.

Why is that?

This isn't a big problem in the game itself, but it is kind of annoying in Urf where he can just spam it but you can't clear it without facecheking it first.

And it's a Clarity issue after all.

76 Comments

JustMyBassCannonApr 5, 201548 votes

Because Shaco is a walking pile of ancient code, and Riot hasn't bothered to do much with him because they plan to relaunch him at some point Soon™

4nth0l0gyApr 5, 20157 votes

Yeah, this sounds right.

I hate that god damn clown, URF or otherwise.

DreamReaper123Apr 5, 201532 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z0KK2Rap,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-04-05T14:30:03.374+0000)

...

lol that's like saying "just cc them."

The Bearded BardApr 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

lol that's like saying "just cc them."

It's really not.. Just CC them works on every champion. Upgraded sweeper is a hard counter to stealth champions and it costs 250 gold. The drawback is that it's got a pretty long cd and can't be upgraded til level 9.

B3ERApr 5, 201512 votes

It is to avoid the existence of an invisible skillshot wall. Imagine having a high priority skillshot that decides fights e.g. Blitz Q, Morg Q, Ahri E, etc. You make a clutch play where you would hit your mark for sure.... aaaaaand Shaco box. This would be even more frustrating than what the current state has to offer. Right now, I think OP is salty because of URF, but that's not what the game is balanced around.

RavenMagusApr 6, 20151 votes

Malz can hide behind his own minions. Why should it be okay for Malz but not for Shaco?

AbsoluteSadmanApr 6, 20154 votes

Note he said INVISIBLE skillshot wall.

RavenMagusApr 6, 20151 votes

I suppose that's a fair point, though that box is likely going to screw things up for you anyways if it's right in the way.

ULTRAF0RCEApr 6, 20151 votes

very likely, not sure if anyone really likes dealing with shaco in urf.

Chaotic ReksApr 6, 20151 votes

welp Teemo

B3ERApr 6, 20151 votes

Same with Satan. His shrooms don't block hits while invisible.

Chaotic ReksApr 6, 20151 votes

talking about his passive, but ok...

B3ERApr 7, 20151 votes

Champions are different. In the case of Teemo, he's always a priority target as well.

Chaotic ReksApr 7, 20151 votes

well, he's still an invisible wall...

Chief KebbieApr 5, 20157 votes

because the game is balanced around URF

Light deusApr 5, 20157 votes

thats like saying teemo shrooms should get hit by random skills

MarhsallLee67Apr 5, 20152 votes

Teemo's makes more sense since it's an ultimate ability, but Shaco's is something that he has at all points in the game and can be leveled up to full power much quicker.

Space BumApr 5, 20153 votes

His boxes don't last nearly as long. Do only single target damage. He has a much. Lower cap on how many he can have out.

League of PotatoApr 5, 20152 votes

people are basing his ability off of urf. Almost no one goes ap shaco in normals because he doesn't scale that high late game but in urf you scale much higher along with the fact that you can spam boxes everywhere (not including his other abilities)

Robin Song RobinApr 6, 20151 votes

Except teemo shrooms are immune to spells even when they're visible. But maybe they should be made targetable by spells, then you'd be able to find them by throwing spells into bushes, thus introducing counterplay.

voidterror1Apr 6, 20151 votes

OR we could just leave him alone, as he isn't that strong right now anyway.

Robin Song RobinApr 6, 20151 votes

That's a weakness of his entire kit, and his dependence on using his unreliable ultimate in order to succeed. If the design team moved power away from his shrooms, that would force them to shift it back into his other abilities, hopefully making him more reliable and strengthening him.

catastrophicSkilApr 5, 20155 votes

If they made the boxes killable before activation they would require a massive HP buff this HP buff would give unfair baron and dragon advantage that shaco used to get back when he was first released this would also give shaco another big buff because say a skill shot is coming in you would just thrown down a box and block it you could literally build a wall that prevents CC.

Also if they did this then they would have to do the same thing for teemo shrooms with that logic and teemo is already fairly useless just like shaco besides split pushing

JustMyBassCannonApr 5, 201513 votes

Funny thing, because they both need reworking.

Also, they could just do an HP system like Zyra's plants.

It Hertz When IPApr 5, 20153 votes

Except that Zyra's plants do not stealth...

JustMyBassCannonApr 5, 20151 votes

And what does that have to do with standardizing HP on the temporary traps/turrets?

It Hertz When IPApr 6, 20152 votes

Partly my fault, I misread your idea as being in response to the OP.

Though Shaco's boxes are probably intended to be more like Teemo's shrooms (undamagable until revealed by stealth, then possessing of X HP) than Zyra's plants or Heim's turrets, which are non-stealthing but somewhat more persistent. Zyra's plants are kinda in a weird place right now, like maybe Riot was testing a new health idea for turret-type pets that never got implemented for everyone else.

JustMyBassCannonApr 6, 20151 votes

But I honestly think that HP system works very well for temporary and/or stealth units. They take damage based on what type of attack/spell hit them, whether it was single target or AoE, and they're temporary units anyway.

They implemented it for wards, so why not apply that to Shaco boxes/Teemo shrooms?

JevelFaithfulApr 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

[...] because say a skill shot is coming in you would just thrown down a box and block it you could literally build a wall that prevents CC.

This is probably their original idea. This kind of micro optimisation looks like the kind of thing riot used to stay clear of. It would probably fit in their current philosophy, but back then...

JingerbeardmanApr 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This is probably their original idea. This kind of micro optimisation looks like the kind of thing riot used to stay clear of. It would probably fit in their current philosophy, but back then...

his boxes can already do that...

Guy Fox TeemoApr 5, 20155 votes

So your suggesting we nerf shaco when he's not even very good atm? In normals that is, goes to show that people will QQ about everything

Yandere CarryApr 5, 20151 votes

the champion being weak overall says nothing about an individual ability that needs to be tweaked.

Example: Veigar

Loken StoneheartApr 5, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tang Bohu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z0KK2Rap,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-04-05T21:50:27.961+0000)

the champion being weak overall says nothing about an individual ability that needs to be tweaked.

Example: Veigar

You're right. We should gut all the low-tier champions and ensure that they're completely trash and unplayable.

Loken StoneheartApr 5, 20154 votes

Because if you could destroy traps-- Shaco's and Teemo's-- while they were stealthed, they'd make some pretty trash-tier traps, considering all you'd have to do is throw skillshots into bushes to disable them.

That and, can you imagine how annoying it'd be to have your single-target skillshots eaten by invisible boxes non-stop?

Tentacle LoveApr 5, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Loken Stoneheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z0KK2Rap,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-04-05T20:47:39.210+0000)

Because if you could destroy traps-- Shaco's and Teemo's-- while they were stealthed, they'd make some pretty trash-tier traps, considering all you'd have to do is throw skillshots into bushes to disable them.

That and, can you imagine how annoying it'd be to have your single-target skillshots eaten by invisible boxes non-stop?

Technically Shaco can already use his boxes to block skillshots by putting them in the way of them

Loken StoneheartApr 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Love Tentacle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z0KK2Rap,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2015-04-05T23:26:43.078+0000)

Technically Shaco can already use his boxes to block skillshots by putting them in the way of them

But its not a permanent thing, it lasts for a second or so before it stealths. Can you imagine trying to skill-shot your way through say, a line of 4-5 of them already set down and invisible?

Dharc KaisorApr 5, 20153 votes

A number of abilities can damage the Shaco-Boxes, actually. Some are useless, but others, such as Sivir's Boomerang Blade, Yi's Alpha Strike, and some other abilities. Seriously though, just use a sweeper trinket. That should solve your problems.

The SoulforgedApr 5, 20151 votes

I think it would be a buff/nerf cycle that would lead with people qqing over the fact that shaco can block skillshots via boxes.

PæanApr 5, 20152 votes

You can still do that before the box goes invisible. I've blocked so many blitz hooks and thresh hooks with a quick box and my feet.

TuskedPrism4Apr 5, 20151 votes

[deleted]

AgidyneApr 5, 20156 votes

{quoted}

damn

free virus...sweet!

Earthlord JazzApr 5, 20151 votes

Imagine you are Blitzcrank that is gonna land the game winning grab on the squishy carry at the 55 minute mark...only to have an invisible box take the hit...which you actually be pretty funny

SvddenlyApr 5, 20155 votes

Yorick ghouls. Elise spiders. Blitz can hit those. And no one has a problem with it.

FelixphaetonApr 5, 20157 votes

Because you can see them.

SinlaireApr 5, 20153 votes

My brother and i were playing Duo bot one day as a jinx leona combo. He went to ult the enemy adc who was running behind their tower but his rocket randomly blew up in the middle of the lane.

we thought he hit a minion with it and were like "wtf? minions shouldnt stop the rocket!"

then Rengar popped up out of nowhere missing 30% of his health and we later realized his rocket hit the rengar during his Ult and we couldnt see him but the rocket still tagged him.

Chaotic ReksApr 6, 20151 votes

Teemo

Earthlord JazzApr 5, 20151 votes

This is true...but you can see those, which means you damn well should avoid using a skillshot in their direction. It'd be like me using Blitz grab to try and grab heimer when he obviously has a turret in front of him for defense and then complaining.

But I suppose if you really support this cause... Shouldn't we be having the same argument with Teemo mushrooms?