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Gragas: Let's talk about love for the big fella

Tavish··13 votes·1,860 views

It has almost been a year since the Rabble Rouser was reworked from an explosive "Irish Car-bomb throwing" AP burst mid to the beer-brazened beefy brusier of... top lane? Jungle? Or maybe mid lane? Ok, support? (Get used to beer related puns by the way, because I plan on using them ale lot... you see what I did there?)

A lot of text ahead.

Let's Get This Party Started!

I would like to take a look at the current state of Gragas, and really talk about what I think he needs to be "playable" again. I used to love playing Gragas in the mid lane, and it saddens me to see such a loved and formerly-feared champion becoming a common staple in nemesis draft.

I'd also like to preface by saying that I am certainly not a pro player, so please take what I say with a grain of salt if you so decide. I'm just someone who liked Gragas, and really thinks he needs some attention. I think by making a post like this I can encourage some new ideas, and maybe make a positive impact on the current state of Gragas.

Happy Hour Incoming! It came as no surprise to me (and probably many other Gragas players), when I read Gragas was going to be reworked. After all, he was a complete tyrant in the mid lane. Having everything you could want out of a mid lane kit: high damage, wave-clear, sustain, tankiness, a gap closer, an escape, a displacement, buffs, debuffs, and an amazingly cheesy level 3 all-in potential. Old Gragas simply did not have the weaknesses that were required to be considered a balanced champion. Some very old school Gragas players might argue this point, but deep down we all knew we were playing "the lee sin" of mid lane. So my point, I think one would need to be hopped up on a lot of hops to think that Gragas didn't need a rework. The happy hour for freelo Gragas was over.

Time to Roll Out the Barrel! I found the original post outlining his rework on the boards, feel free to check it out here

Essentially, Gragas would no longer be an AP burst champ because it 1) didn't match his theme, and 2) would be to difficult to balance using his current ability set (basically he would be OP or be "Olaf'd"). I think that the second point is a valid one, but the first is a bit of a cop out. I don't think many will argue with me when I see that lore is not Riot's first or second, or even third priority. So when I saw that Riot was using "feel" as a reason to rework a champion, I was a bit disheartened. It felt like they were trying to add a bit of sugar to my medicine. I just wanted the shot straight.

The second point was fair I thought though. In his current state he would be a monstrous challenge to balance. So what changes would be made to completely rework that OP kit? Well, honestly, not a lot. The damage was reduced (don't need a rework to do that), some of his buffs and debuffs were changed (don't need much of a rework to do that either). But he was different, don't get me wrong. However I don't think Riot changed Gragas enough to change the underlying problems with his kit. "He's OP or he's Olaf". He is still a hard champion to balance.

Fight Time! Well what's up with Gragas these days? After being pushed around a bit, he still doesn't really have a home. Is he a top laner? Maybe? He got LCS play for a bit as a top laner, but alas the meta has shifted away from him there. Can he jungle? Not really, as the new jungle is a much more treacherous place. Can he support? Kind of, but he cannot possibly match the sustain of a Nami, or the engage of a Thresh. So maybe he is still a mid laner? But Riot already said they don't want him to be a bursty AP mage, so that really limits his mid lane potential. There are only a few viable mid laners who are not assassins or mages (Vlad, Swain of the top of my head) and they can certainly out sustain Gragas.

This lack of a place has hit Gragas hard. The once mighty Keg-facer has a measly 40.48% win-rate. He gets played in less that 1% of games. (This is based off of statistics from Champion.gg, so Plat+ games). Why has he fallen so out of favor? Because he has been, and still is, a burst mage. Just a very weak one. A year ago his kit might have been enough for a top laner. But now, if you don't have a malt of CC and ranged damage, or ridiculous amounts of tankiness, you just can't belong there. Gragas sadly sits in the middle of those 2 things. Not enough to be on par with the likes of Liss or Gnar, but certainly not enough tankiness to soak damage like Sion. This is because Gragas is still a bursty, now Olaf'd mage.

Last Call! So what does Gragas need? Well he need a departure from his lore. We ignore lore all the time anyway, so why not. Make him a mage again. Give him more damage, less tankiness, and make his E more about disengage than engage. Don't bring back the old Gragas, just bring back the shadow of the old Gragas. Why not just make him a mid laner again? His most common builds are really not much of a departure from those of old Gragas, so why not accept that he is not a tank, and run with it. He is just to much in the middle to fit in top lane, or the new jungle. Until he gets the love he needs as a mid lane, he simply will remain unplayed.

I really hope to hear some ideas, or criticisms. I want to know what people think of Gragas. He is an awesome champion, who could be a lot of fun.

tl;dr Gragas is a mage, he doesn't fit into top lane. Make him a mage again. Just call it how it is.

15 Comments

DestructoDave4 votes

I personally really like playing Tank Gragas, and he is a lot stronger than people think he is. He actually does a ton of dmg with a Mao-kai-esque build and a Sheen item. I prefer Iceborn Gauntlet. Hes like a Nautilus that does damage.

I actually believe he does better with a tank build, and he suffers with a full AP build. If you remember, he did way better in the LCS when he was being built tank-gragas, and he really looks awful recently when they go AP gragas.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

This.

He has % damage reduction and a lot of CC, he's great as a tanky disruptor champion that screws with everyone's positioning while attempting to ignore a lot of damage that gets thrown at him in return.

He's this fat, giant brute of a man who should be known for being fat and giant. The CC buff they recently gave his barrel is a step in the right direction; he shouldn't be all about damage, he should zone people and punish those out of position.

I mean hell, throwing your ult behind a target is perfect for A) throwing him into your team to get massacred and B) pushing everyone ELSE away from him so that everyone (save a really good thresh lantern) can't save the poor sod.

And another note: Iceborn Gauntlet should be core on any Grag build, in my opinion; it's too good for his kit.

Der Metzger3 votes

his cast times on q and w are kinda annoying, espically against mobile champs, and his q waveclear and mana management early on are troublesome

Chessburger2 votes

I play jungle gragas as an AP bruiser. The only issue I have with him is how mana hungry he is in fights and making a roa on jungle has way too delayed of a power spike to be viable. I pretty much have to hog blue buffs (and still run out of mana in fights if they're long enough).

His clear is fine though. Average, but his early ganks as well as post 6 ganks are pretty deadly when performed at a certain skill level.

Also his W is way too wonky, it silences him for 1s every 4s if you have some cdr... I'd like to see the channel time reduced to 0.5s or at least 0.75s. Or to be able to self cancel - right now you can't E while drinking so you can just kill yourself on accident.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

I play jungle gragas as an AP bruiser. The only issue I have with him is how mana hungry he is in fights and making a roa on jungle has way too delayed of a power spike to be viable. I pretty much have to hog blue buffs (and still run out of mana in fights if they're long enough).

His clear is fine though. Average, but his early ganks as well as post 6 ganks are pretty deadly when performed at a certain skill level.

Also his W is way too wonky, it silences him for 1s every 4s if you have some cdr... I'd like to see the channel time reduced to 0.5s or at least 0.75s. Or to be able to self cancel - right now you can't E while drinking so you can just kill yourself on accident.

I like Jungle Gragas too. Though I usually only pick him if our team is already AD heavy. And if our mid laner is Zed/yasuo (meaning I can hog blue buff)

His W while having some wonky mechanics can be used to good effect. Partially because a) it gives you a MS buff while channeling. b) it still give you bonus tankyness. I find that the MS buff can be used as a gap closer, particularly when paired with his E. Basically, 1) use you W to close the distance while gaining the defense buff. 2) E into the target while procing the W on hit. 3) use your Q to cut off their escape.

GnomeDigest1 votes

{quoted}

I like Jungle Gragas too. Though I usually only pick him if our team is already AD heavy. And if our mid laner is Zed/yasuo (meaning I can hog blue buff)

His W while having some wonky mechanics can be used to good effect. Partially because a) it gives you a MS buff while channeling. b) it still give you bonus tankyness. I find that the MS buff can be used as a gap closer, particularly when paired with his E. Basically, 1) use you W to close the distance while gaining the defense buff. 2) E into the target while procing the W on hit. 3) use your Q to cut off their escape.

His W doesnt give you a MS bonus. Initially after the rework his W slowed him by like 50% while channeling (because apparently a self-silence wasnt enough). They eventually removed that slow so now he moves at normal movespeed when he channels W. Perhaps that change is what made you think you get a MS boost. You dont.

His W is by far the most problematic aspect of his kit, which was told to Riot from the moment his rework was released. Since then they removed the slow during channel and slapped on a mana cost and called it a day.

The fact that using such a low CD, telegraphed ability includes a self-silence is beyond absurd. But to Riot the answer was to add a meaningless buff to the slow on his barrel. But hey if some braindead enemy lets you full channel your barrel a 95% slow op lol. Oh wait if I recall correctly Riot expects you to get use out of the full channel because you can use your ult to knock your enemy back onto the barrel they just walked away from.

That must be why his pick and win rates have gone in the gutter. People just dont know how to use him as Riot intended.

Chessburger2 votes

Yeah I don't understand... the 2s prepared barrel onto an enemy is a 1 in a million if your opponent doesn't accidentally walk into it... and who plays the game of luck? You pretty much have to pop it immediately or use it to cut off 1 escape route - which means they go another way possibly the way you wanted them... but still you don't do the damage because you only shepherded the guy into another direction.

The area denial pending threat is fine but the champ over-all isn't strong enough to use it consistently.

Chessburger1 votes

I am well aware of how to use his W while ganking, the problem are skirmishes/teamfights that require you to use more than one prepped W...

McAllister2 votes

I enjoyed the hell out of Support Gragas. I don't why they had to add a mana cost to his swig.

Wheatloaf1 votes

He was using that free swig to squat top lane after-hours, so the barkeeps had to throw him out.

Cosmic Warper2 votes

I'd prefer if his W windup was a lot smoother, and OR that his E applied his W.

Kingsgrave1 votes

He needs his W to not be stoppable and also the ability to cast Q and W while Eing

ABlueQuaker1 votes

The only thing Riot nerfed between him being a FotM Top Laner that was being played in Competitive LoL everywhere and now was his wave clear and made put more decision making onto his E because it has a fixed range now.

LANWhale1 votes

We ignore lore all the time anyway, so why not.

As some one who spends a great deal of time on the Story&Art boards.

Can confirm.

T_T

Big Nasty Mèat1 votes

Strange post from OP. Gragas certainly does have a home in both the top lane and the jungle. And no, he isn't a burst mage anymore (although you can still play him like that if you really want.) The reason you don't see him in competitive anymore is because he fills almost the exact same niche as Maokai except with a less forgiving laning phase and an inability to keep up in a 1v2 because of the changes to minion damage on Q and general mana costs.

I wouldn't use solo Q win rate as an indication for anything since even at the zenith of his mid lane domination period his win rate never crept above ~47%. I have an 80% win rate with him after ~20 games this season in Plat. Doesn't mean much, but he's certainly "playable". He is a very capable top lane bruiser. And recent buff to the slow on his Q was huge as it allows him to follow up with W in a more favorable pattern.

I think the real issue is people pining for old days of two-shotting the ADC from a screen away. Those days are over and some people just can't let go.

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