I'm a Zed main and I'd like to share my thoughts

Tavish··97 votes·11,194 views

Before you start down-voting me to oblivion let me please have a conversation with you. I actually AGREE that Zed is in a bad spot right now and does need some changes. But I would like to share my thoughts on Zed.

A quick preface I have been a Zed player since mid season 3. He quickly became my favorite champion, and I played him through ALL metas. When he was strong or weak or OP, or whatever. Changing Zed will not change my desire to play him, and playing him through all the changes in the game since mid season 3 has given me a pretty objective perspective on him and his strengths/weaknesses.

Can Zed's kit be balanced? A lot of people have short memories. Early to mid season 4, this game was considerably different. At that time, Lulu, Soraka and Ori were the dominant mid laners and the meta called for support style mids to support the strong bruiser/carry style junglers and and AD carries. At this time, Zed was not considered OP, in fact, anytime someone would complain about Zed on the forums they were usually down-voted into obscurity. Alas, the meta has changed -- assassins are on the rise again, and Zed has taken the forefront.

I have read a ton of threads in the past month that have said that "Zed can simply not be balanced... His kit is just way to strong." And I think that it only takes looking back 3 short months to see a time when he was considered a bad pick in both competitive play and solo-que. So a massive overhaul is not what Zed needs, he doesn't need a rework and he doesn't need a changed ultimate. His balancing issue is strictly a numbers problem.

Why so OP all of a sudden His buffs this summer were not the reason for him being considered OP right now. The meta has just happened to shift back to him being in a dominant position. I mean, think about it, the mids rising to popularity right now are all similar to Zed (assassins with good lanning-phases and roam potential). This is due mostly to the changes in the jungle, discouraging, or at least evening out, early game pressure.

Once Zed is nerfed, which is probably inevitable at this point, he will no longer be over-shadowing the major problems with EVERY assassin, not just Zed. And pretty much every popular assassin right now has the same issues. So if we are going to put Zed under a microscope and talk about his strengths, we should probably do the same with other assassins that have similar kits.

The other strong assassins Fizz I think that if we are going to talk about Zed not having the "risk vs reward" play style that assassins are suppose to have, then Fizz should be right there next to him. Every problem concerning Zed right now can be applied to Fizz with the exception of being manaless.

Leblanc With the changes to her W, she is once again strong, and will surely make a come back. Plenty of wave clear, and a very safe playstyle with considerable burst.

Katarina She was just recently nerfed, but still the same issues. Including being manaless.

Akali Not the same wave clear as the champs above but enough damage to easily put Zed to shame while having a crazy safe play style and no mana.

Ahri Ahri is in a weird spot, really strong but very under-played. I expect she will make an excellent come back. But maybe not necessary on this list.

All these champs have glaring issues with the meta right now, and any one of them could be in Zed's spot easily. I think as a community we need to examine the role in general, not just Zed.

What Zed needs I think Zed is in need of some nerfs, and here are my thoughts. First, death mark cooldown at levels 1 and 2, should be higher. It is up to often in the lanning phase for mages to have opportunities for counter play. Next, his W should have a significantly longer cooldown, but the cooldown reduction from his E should be applied only on Zed's E not his shadow, and be much higher. This means that Zed still has sticking potential, but not as much safety, poke in lane without taking risks. Finally his Q damage should be slightly reduced at early levels.

tl;dr Zed needs changes, but every assassin does, let's not go crazy here with all the Zed hate, he CAN be balanced.

126 Comments

blujadajhdja32 votes

Wow, this is actually pretty un-biased, especially for a Zed main. +1, all the other threads on this topic are way overexaggerated. It's nice to see someone taking "shifting metas" into account other outright saying that X champ is broken.

Leti the Yeti13 votes

well, his low skill floor is a problem too if u ask me

Tavish26 votes

{quoted}

well, his low skill floor is a problem too if u ask me

I think most assassins have a low skill floor, high skill cap.

HandheldBrandon6 votes

Thats an Inherent problem with Assassin. Low Skill Floor.

Low Risk High Reward High safety playstyle.

Zed is just the best qualities of them all in one package. Riot cannot balance Zeds burst with the mobility he has without severely gutting one or the other. There is no alternative and if they try and find and implement one we just have another Assassin take his place and then the cycle begins all over again. Assassins Should not be given the tools to Kill an enemy instantly and remove themselves from all danger. There needs to be a risk and Right now they just dont have that risk with their multiple dashes and stealths and Massive upfront damage.

junglerboy168 votes

I'd have to agree. Take Master Yi for example: He is considered a n00b champion and is very easy to get the hang of. However, really skillful players can make use of a ton of things in his kit, like dodging skill shots and negating enemy burst, which is why he sees play in high elo soloque. Zed to me is a pretty high skill floor for an assassin, but once you get the basics, he is easy just like most other assassins. I'd say probably the most complicated assassins I can think of are Rengar and Shaco. Both have a ton of skill and/or combos required to achieve standard damage compared to most other assassins. They aren't the highest skill cap, but very high skill floor champs. I'd say highest skill cap is probably Zed. And that is part of what makes him so strong, you can get good at Zed, but you have a lot more room to do cool things with him than with a lot of champs.

lDontLiftIcarry3 votes

shaco is one of the highest skill caps in the game.

Have you seen riots Ai? Imagine ttrying to get one of thier beginner bots to fight for you. Thats how difficult shacos clone is to make useful.

KMannnnn11 votes

You can control it after summoning by pressing R and clicking at the same time.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

Yeah? And then you realize it stops moving after they enter a brush. Or it stops moving if you click a target to attack while making it move at the same time because the game doesn't know which character you want to move so it makes the AI go back to "ill follow you" mode.

Its very annoying not having an AI partner that is at least semi intelligent enough to make decent decisions and look life like.

Its completely up to you on how lifelike it looks. Thats what makes a good shaco player.

I don't have any issue manipulating the clone. Its quite easy most of the time.

KMannnnn12 votes

I don't play shaco, but I'm pretty sure it's not as hard as you're making it out to be. Right click=control champion, tap R=control clone, and neither command interrupts the other.

Zoof4 votes

Oh believe me, I used to play shaco a bit in season 3 and his clone's AI is pretty terrible.

junglerboy166 votes

No, that is high skill floor. High skill floor means that they are difficult to use at all, whereas Zed is much less difficult, but has many complicated mechanics and combos that mean his skill cap is higher. Skill cap means the absolute best a champion can be with a ton of skill, while skill floor is how much skill is a bare minimum to even play them.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

no shacos skill floor is low as shit. you press Q and walk up behind them and hit them.

how is that at all hard lol.

He got gutted because he was so easy to play.

theres a reason people say "god I hate a good shaco" in solo queue. because only the GOOD players still make him work after his nerfs.

They need to hurry up and gutt zed/fizz so that only the good players make him work

zed and his his Q doing 200+ at at barely rank 3 is broken as shit.

rank 5 spells should be 200+ damage Not rank 4 or lower thats complete bullshit.

Remove base damage. Increase damage to first target hit.

E needs to be nerfed as well. AS well as his base attack speed.

fizz is basically the exact same story. nerf attack speed base.

Nerf E damage(its an escape. Stop giving it redick scaling+ base damage)

DrCyanide2 votes

You just contradicted yourself....

no shacos skill floor is low as shit. you press Q and walk up behind them and hit them.

how is that at all hard lol.

vs

theres a reason people say "god I hate a good shaco" in solo queue. because only the GOOD players still make him work after his nerfs.

One says anyone can play Shaco, the other says very few people can. Make up your mind.

lDontLiftIcarry2 votes

I was talking about pre nerf Q shaco And then live shaco.

I dont have to make up my mind at all. lmfao.

Just like every champion that has an abusable in solo queue mechanic(or in recent champion kits.. multiple abusable mechanics)that gets removed and becomes balanced for once.... only the mains or dedicated players are left.

AMYS GRAVE9 votes

good post, i mostly agree and i think i could sum zeds current OP state in four points.

  1. the jungle changes have made the jungle hit hard, and there are more people wandering around on low health, which is perfect for assassins like zed.

  2. the recent changes to mana regen left zed unaffected while it nerfed almost all of his current and potential mid-lane counterparts.

  3. the relative strength of ad items, in particular armor pen, has massively outclassed any defensive items so it is almost impossible to itemize against him.

  4. for an assassin zed is way too safe. he gets tons of insta-pop-ing people potential with almost no drawbacks.

Saixos8 votes

Hmm. As an ADC main, one of those who zeds love to blow up, zed annoys me quite a bit but I don't really have that big of a problem with him. I don't think higher death mark cooldown will change zed enough as a champion to be effective. What I'd go for with a nerf isn't a numbers change, but giving the enemy team more windows of opportunity to counter him. The changes I'd go for would be to modify zed's shurikan to work like lux's Q as far as hitting targets goes, so that it can only hit 2 instead of an entire wave, making hiding behind minions far more viable in lane. Then give his w an energy cost whenever he switches from one shadow to the next - this additional energy cost would make it so that if zed decided to engage and attempt an all in, if he doesn't hit his abilities then he won't have enough energy to immediately escape, allowing him to be poked and played with quite a lot more.

As a zed main, what are your thoughts on these ideas?

Most of the other assassins I'm not really as concerned about as much as zed, because they already have plenty of opportunities to combat them from my perspective.

alagore2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Saixos Yewark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G6PzmFOb,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-01-10T03:40:18.787+0000)

Hmm. As an ADC main, one of those who zeds love to blow up, zed annoys me quite a bit but I don't really have that big of a problem with him. I don't think higher death mark cooldown will change zed enough as a champion to be effective. What I'd go for with a nerf isn't a numbers change, but giving the enemy team more windows of opportunity to counter him. The changes I'd go for would be to modify zed's shurikan to work like lux's Q as far as hitting targets goes, so that it can only hit 2 instead of an entire wave, making hiding behind minions far more viable in lane. Then give his w an energy cost whenever he switches from one shadow to the next - this additional energy cost would make it so that if zed decided to engage and attempt an all in, if he doesn't hit his abilities then he won't have enough energy to immediately escape, allowing him to be poked and played with quite a lot more.

As a zed main, what are your thoughts on these ideas?

Most of the other assassins I'm not really as concerned about as much as zed, because they already have plenty of opportunities to combat them from my perspective.

I think the purpose of increasing Death Mark cooldown is to prevent him from snowballing as quickly. As it stands, Death Mark has a 120 second cooldown rank 1, that with brutalizer and masteries drops to 102 seconds. Roughly a minute 1:45, and thats not a lot of time to pressure him, considering if he kills you the respawn timer is 20 seconds at lvl 6. If it takes another 20 seconds to reach lane against, you have 1 minute before his ulti is back up. This is made worse by how safe Zed can play in that minute.

Junkο4 votes

To be fair his ult CD is higher than the ult of every other mid lane assassin.

Talon has 75, also buys CDR LB has 40, also buys CDR Katarina 90 CD, maybe buys CDR+reset passive

And all 3 can snowball harder than Zed (though LB falls off hard if the game isn't finished quickly)

B4ckslash1 votes

Talon will fall short in any kind of fight nowadays, even vs a squishy caster.... His silence was his only form of safety after he jumped in, now everybody can easily retaliate, and as his ult is mostly used for ganks/surprise engages, so that way of escaping isn't exactly an option either.

LB's Ult is basically a double of her basic abilities, which is not that strong in and of itself, the combo matters here.

Katarinas ult can be shut down by any kind of hard CC, which most champs(that are in the meta & played often) have plenty of nowadays.

Zed's ult is hard to counter(unlike Kata), is extremely powerful(unlike LB), and has a gapcloser AND escape component to it(unlike Talon). Basically he has hardly any counterplay to his ult unless you have QSS(who dafuq would buy MR vs Zed?) or he can't escape because his shadow timed out, both of which are rather unlikely.

Junkο2 votes

Zed ult is also countered by hard CC, and common items that every role buys, and a ton of champion abilities, or just any champion with a mobility spell to quickly get away.

YOU BEEN WARNED7 votes

Wtf don't put Katarina with Zed in the same place, she actually sits there like a duck with her ult to kill you. All counterplay available while Zed just gotta press R to negate all of it.

He's AD, she's AP. Kat has no sustain and AP penetration items are much more gimmicky than AD ones.

In order for Katarina to effectively poke she needs to E in to proc that Q mark which is risky, Zed pokes with max efficiency with no risk whatsoever.

Brenticus123 votes

But she can destroy entire teams due to resets. Zed can destroy a single target or two if he's fed.

YOU BEEN WARNED2 votes

That's true, but every reset is a mistake so there is counterplay. It's kinda cheap since it procs fully on assists ( but she needs it, she has no CC no burst dmg whatsoever. )

Unlike MasterYi 's case where ulting into fight is a guaranteed reset. What do you do when you see MasterYi ulting to a fight ? Run? You can't. CC him? You need to save that for his W, not to mention how he rofl dodges things with Q. Also this balanced item is wonderful item 3153

Kat has the most balanced reset system among all the reset champions, seriously. Khazix Tristana MasterYi ( unless you count Darius ' as serious reset dependent then he's probably the most balanced reset-wise )

TL;DR Katarina punishes mistakes for kills, Zed gets kills by default.

Junkο2 votes

Yi is the same as Kat, except that he takes a bit longer to become cheap but becomes harder to stop, and has mana.

I also love how you don't mention Zed a single time, then suddenly mention that he gets kill by default

OyddAWqJ5r6 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5U3Pkz64-a-change-to-reduce-the-effectiveness-of-passive-zed-play

Tried to come up with a solution that doesn't break him. Since laning is the only real problem when facing Zed I tried to keep changes from affecting post-lane interactions without straight up hitting early game damage numbers.

Q - Razor Shuriken

  • COST: 75/70/65/60/55 Energy => 110/95/80/65/50 Energy

W - Living Shadow

  • I Actually Have To Use My Shadow Now?: If a target is struck twice by a mimicked ability, Zed restores 20/25/30/35/40 energy => 50% of the mimicked ability's cost. 100% if it hits a champion.

I mean if this looks good to you and you'd rather not wait til Riot comes up with some crazy and unnecessary damage nerf on the PBE then by all means click the link and upvote. I'm no Zed main, but I strongly believe he's in a good spot but he's just too safe to play in lane.

Junkο1 votes

one problem is that this will force a Zed to max Q over E because of the massive cost

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

Let's be honest. Who actually maxed E first? Even so, if you are maxing E then your Q probably does no damage and you'd only really use it for all ins where the cost wouldn't affect his performance at all (rank 1 abilities are 110 Q + 40 W + 50 E = 200). And if you land any mimicked hits the cost would be refunded anyway.

But I ask again, who actually maxes E first? Lol.

Epilogue of Life5 votes

Cuz people hate being outplayed, especially retarded people who will not admit that they are retarded.

ShadowParker2 votes

And this helps to the conversation how?

Epilogue of Life1 votes

There's no need to converse with those who does not know how to play against a Zed.

GaleWinUnleashed4 votes

Then please enlighten us, O Mighty Gold player. How do you lane against a Zed, without being forced to pick a specific champion?

Epilogue of Life1 votes

Dodge Q?....Dodge WEQ?....rush seekers?...Buy Zhonya?....get jungle to camp?

GaleWinUnleashed5 votes

A large part of the issue is that most of the traditional mids (mages) use mana, while Zed obviously does not. If they attempt to rush an Armguard for the armor (or a QSS in anticipation of being dived at level 6), they'll lose out on the early-game mana regen that most of them need in order to compete with Zed's waveclear and incredibly easy last hitting. Zed can then just keep pushing until they run out of mana, then either kill them or go roaming freely.

Then there's the other side of that. Let us assume that you are able to perfectly dodge all of Zed's poke, and do not feel the need to buy armor, so you can get mana regen instead. Mana regen has recently been nerfed, to the point where you are almost guaranteed to run out of mana just trying to stop Zed from taking your turret by pushing. Buying regen helps, but it's not enough for most mages to keep up with clearing wave after wave of minions.

And even pushed up to your turret, ganking Zed is nearly useless anyway if he's halfway decent at warding with his trinket. He can just ward one side and avoid the other, and his W will make for an easy escape 90% of the time, no matter how far he pushed.

Epilogue of Life2 votes

If the mage builds armor, then Zed can't kill that mage unless he or she let Zed ult them out of tower with about 1/2 health. Also, blue buff exists for a reason, get that to help with the mana problems. And, about the jungler gank--if Zed uses his W to stay alive, he can't use it to poke you. A good jg pressure will make the Zed hesitate about throwing out his W offensively, and life is SO much easier when the Zed just Q's to poke. Zed's a strong laner, because late game he can't compete with champions like Vayne and Ori, so beating him in lane is supposed to take more than beating a Kassadin in lane.

Llanite5 votes

Don't know where you come from but Fizz Leblanc Akali are no where near Zed in sustain and safe trading.

Fizz Leblanc only form of trade is QW which takes 1/4 to 1/3 their mana pool each combo, inb4 "living shadow has 16s CD", Distortion and trickster are 16s too unless they level it which then costs considerate amount of mana. Akali doesnt even have a harass, her Q does 145 @lvl 5.

LaserDeathBlade4 votes

{quoted}

Don't know where you come from but Fizz Leblanc Akali are no where near Zed in sustain and safe trading.

Fizz Leblanc only form of trade is QW which takes 1/4 to 1/3 their mana pool each combo, inb4 "living shadow has 16s CD", Distortion and trickster are 16s too unless they level it which then costs considerate amount of mana. Akali doesnt even have a harass, her Q does 145 @lvl 5.

Fizz LB and Akali don't need to farm lol

I swear average CS on those champions by 15 minutes is like 40, and the're still top pick, except for LB.

Llanite3 votes

None of them have free AP from kits, unlike someone who has 25% AD for doing nothing. Also keep in mind it's harder to last hit as AP then AD.

Junkο3 votes

To be fair Akali with just a gunblade gets a free 20% bonus spellvamp and magic dmg ever AA

OverpoweredSoap4 votes

{quoted}

Fizz LB and Akali don't need to farm lol

I swear average CS on those champions by 15 minutes is like 40, and the're still top pick, except for LB.

Uh, they only don't need to farm if you let them kill you. Which happens for a lot of champions.

Even then they'd probably have more farm than that, also LB usually has to give up her ult to waveclear a whole wave, but Fizz just has to use his E.

And Akali.

Well Akali. Low cooldowns.

Waveclear shouldn't been on assassins unless they have to give up their burst for it.

Tavish2 votes

{quoted}

Uh, they only don't need to farm if you let them kill you. Which happens for a lot of champions.

Even then they'd probably have more farm than that, also LB usually has to give up her ult to waveclear a whole wave, but Fizz just has to use his E.

And Akali.

Well Akali. Low cooldowns.

Waveclear shouldn't been on assassins unless they have to give up their burst for it.

The issue with Lb now is that her W is much much stronger, and a lot of people max it now meaning that after DFG you get enough damage off it to 1 shot the wave with a w, and the DFG still gives Lb enough assassination potential to one shot pretty much anyone other than a tank. Also the CD on her ulti is extremely low, but I agree with you on Akali.

Kuroi862 votes

Viable ideas. Have you considered lowering the duration of his shadows and the duration of death mark?

alagore2 votes

{quoted}

Viable ideas. Have you considered lowering the duration of his shadows and the duration of death mark?

The problem with reducing the duration of his shadows, is that if you reduce it any, it removes the ability to Q twice with 40% CDR. While this may bring him in line, I feel like it has the possibility of being a much harder hitting nerf than intended, but it might be needed.

However, reducing the Death Mark duration might not be as effective as hoped. Most Zeds I have seen generally blow his load of WQE and auto a few times if possible, then leaving, which doesn't take much time. I could see this being a nerf to dueling, but not his safety, which from what I have seen is what people complain about. Maybe make it so Zed can't return to his ulti shadow for X seconds?

However, I'm not about to state I know everything about League, I am an unranked player who is somewhere between Silver and Gold judging by the people I play against. This is just my opinion, and I don't play Zed enough to gauge exactly how hard nerfs would hit him, and how to best change him.

Sachabot2 votes

What would you say to a nerf or outright removal of his percent AD? How much do you think he needs it to stay viable?

Nice to see someone being rational.

Alpharite1 votes

His %ad Is useless. Removing it would do nothing.

Yoshuo2 votes

100% Agree. I love Zed , loads of fun to play and his kit really fits him thematically. He is very strong right now though and could use some minor number tweaks as you've said, I was thinking of making a thread like this but never got around to it but you did instead, well done sir.

MajorPain92 votes

The meta has just happened to shift back to him being in a dominant position

You mean mana regen was nerfed.

1st HanarSpectre2 votes

I don't really think Zed is OP. IMO Fizz is a bigger problem than Zed is, the thing is people always have problem with assassins, their role is to kill people, and of course those people do not enjoy being killed. The playerbase has complained abotu assassins for as long as I have played (since 2010) except for a small period of time where the meta golem bruisers were running rampants.

No matter what riot does, assassins will always be complained about unless they are way underpowered.

Decaedeus2 votes

I think a meaningful way to hit Zed's raw power is to force him into different itemization paths besides the item 3153 item 3142 combo. These two items give Zed raw chasing and dueling power, while not forcing him to build raw AD items like Riven Talon. Right now, Zed is an assassin who can prioritize things other than AD and still burst, due to his high base damages. To this end, Zed's base damage should be toned down a notch, while his AD scaling should be increased to compensate. While not a flat nerf, it actually adds counterplay to Zed's kit (at least, I think so). As a Zed player, what do you think about this?

CaptnJakSparrow2 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIBR4zudWpo

To be frank. Zed is quite overwhelming in lane. He punishes poor farmers, but at the same time holds his own against dedicated pushers while applying the burst potential of poor farmers. Only, he also guarantees his jungler blue buff + experience just for picking him. People often forget that's actually a pretty big deal. Especially considering he get his own just by simply killing the enemy mid. And if he fails? Doesn't really matter anyways. High reward, low risk.

The other problem, he's arguably as slippery as Lee, only also untargetable at times, and has the potential to travel over 8,000 spaces via his W and R. Yes, Leblanc can do that too. But, the difference between him and Leblanc, is Leblanc can't auto attack you to death, nor does she leave homies that can also attack people chasing him. She also doesn't build boots of mobility.

His tower diving is also quite out of hand. He pidgeonholes anyone without an untargetable ability to immediately rush a zhonyas, or prepare to die. That's actually a pretty big dps loss for most mages that are now so nerfed they require deathfires to reach the same burst as Zed. So, by simply picking him you are indirectly saving your team from becoming roaming death fire killed.

IT's actually risky to pick any assassin champ besides Fizz against him. You're better off with a more tanky/supporty mid.

What exactly is the downside of picking Zed? Honestly, there really isn't. And what few downsides there are are easily remedied by an ap jungler, or top which isn't too uncommon to begin with. Other than that, the only real downside is there will be more zhonyas on the enemy team. But, by switching your ult to the adc, the issue is remedied anyways.

Tl;dr if you're good with Zed, there really is no reason NOT to pick him. That's kind of an issue.

D1rtFarmer2 votes

You've said it best by far!

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