@Riot about Juggernauts

Zyorhist·Aug 8, 2015·5 votes·20,769 views

So I'm really excited about the upcoming changes for the 4 juggernauts, but I would like to know who else may end up in the classification of juggernaut. Running through the list in my head I started to wonder about Yorik as well as a few others, but Yorik specifically. Is he going to be reclassified as a juggernaut because I honestly could see him becoming very viable and completely unique running in that theme.

That being said, I would also like to know how you are making a differentiation between Tank and Juggernaut, or on the flip side, Bruiser/Fighter and Juggernaut. There seems to be a fair amount of overlap here, unless you are renaming these archetypes, which honestly I would prefer.

76 Comments

RiotMeddlerAug 8, 20157 votes

We see juggernauts as a sub class of fighters/brawlers/bruisers/whatever else you want to call them. That's a really large group of champions that ranges from the really mobile characters that build damage only, like Tryndamere, to the immobile champs that build tanky like Nasus. We've been looking at a series of sub groups with that larger fighter group as a result as follows:

Juggernauts - Immobile, tough, build one to two offensive items on average (e.g. Nasus or Garen)
Divers - Pretty mobile, and really good at getting onto specific targets they want to kill, builds a little bit more offensively than juggernauts (e.g. Irelia or Xin Zhao)
Light fighters (need a better name for this group - Highly mobile, builds almost entirely offense, often good at killing multiple targets, usually squishy with windowed defense of evasieness (e.g. Trynd or Fiora).

Biggest contrast between tanks and juggernauts is in what each group is trying do. Tanks are generally trying to initiate or peel more, kill by themselves less. They build almost mainly (sometimes exclusively) defense/utility and have a greater amount of mobility, generally tied to initiation or peeling actions.

As far as other juggernauts go, Olaf, Shyvana are the next two we're planning on looking at. Yorick's arguably a juggernaut, he'll get a full relaunch though. Volibear could be described as a juggernaut, though he's also got some diver and tank bits to him. Mundo also shares some juggernaut characteristics, but doesn't really match overall (which is fine, we're looking to use these descriptions as ways to map similarities and differences between champions, not because every champion has to be forced into a specific category).

Icestar1186Aug 8, 20151 votes

By "full relaunch" do you mean a Sion-level rework?

FadedpfAug 8, 20151 votes

Yes Sion level rework will be happening to Poppy very soon. and Yorick eventually....

RiotMeddlerAug 8, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Yes Sion level rework will be happening to Poppy very soon. and Yorick eventually....

That's correct, though Poppy's not 'very soon' yet sorry (she's currently being worked on a bunch, she's not close to release yet though).

FadedpfAug 8, 20151 votes

I thought Poppy was coming this year though? I was expecting around after worlds which seemed soon to me.

DwarvenGiantAug 8, 20151 votes

Yeah, she's coming this year. Perhaps Riot's "soon" is different than our "soon".

FadedpfAug 8, 20152 votes

And their red post different then our red post.

GloriousKaiserAug 8, 20151 votes

Just want to make it clear, are you trying to push Juggernaut as a "thing"? If so, GREAT!! Thanks for explaining this new category of fighter.

RiotMeddlerAug 8, 20157 votes

'Juggernaut' is a term we're using to talk about a type of champion that's pretty much always been in the game. We haven't previously put enough time into identifying their strengths, weaknesses, item needs, role in lane, role in a teamfight however, so we're doing some of that work now.

GloriousKaiserAug 8, 20151 votes

I'm glad that you're categorizing the Fighter class even further, I believe you'll be able to make a lot out of this patch because of this.

Are you going to spend time advocating to Divers/LFighters and hopefully other champion classes? Or do they not need changes as bad as Juggernauts?

RiotMeddlerAug 8, 20155 votes

We chose juggernauts as a group to focus on because we felt they needed the work the most. Next step's going to be follow up work post 5.16 release (balancing if we're off on power, adjusting mechanics if some of our theories get proven wrong etc). We'll then assess how successful this work was or wasn't and use that to help inform how we tackle other characters.

MelledoneusAug 9, 20151 votes

Will we be seeing updates to the roles and secondary roles on in-game champion profiles?

I.e Garen's primary role being Juggernaut as opposed to Fighter.

And I don't suppose we'll be seeing JuggerNautilus?

RaxistaichoAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We chose juggernauts as a group to focus on because we felt they needed the work the most. Next step's going to be follow up work post 5.16 release (balancing if we're off on power, adjusting mechanics if some of our theories get proven wrong etc). We'll then assess how successful this work was or wasn't and use that to help inform how we tackle other characters.

I noticed Deadman's Plate has hit the rift, any chance for the Lost Chapter items? I kinda liked them as an alternative to Morellonom as they give it more of an identity beyond "cheaper, less mp-friendly Athene's".

ShénzhìAug 8, 20153 votes

I'm just going to suggest these:

Tanks:

Juggernaut (offensive; crowd handler)

Vanguard? (defensive; crowd controller) "the forefront in any movement, field, activity, or the like."

Fighters:

Brawler (sustain; trade)

Duelist (focus; commit)

Please also file this idea somewhere: Resource: Exertion. It's quite thorough and I think it's really solid and could actually work!

Jeddy017Aug 8, 20153 votes

May I ask is Poppy being pushed more as a juggernaut or a tank?

RiotMeddlerAug 8, 20159 votes

More tank (stronger CC focus, so more like Sion than like Garen).

HellioningAug 8, 20159 votes

Ugh, I don't really like that. Her entire gimmick right now is large amounts of damage, so I'd like her to keep the damage, just remove the really bad stuff (her ult and passive, mainly).

RetillinAug 8, 20151 votes

I am a fan of her bruiser/assassin style. But it does not seem something Riot wishes to keep.

HellioningAug 8, 20151 votes

I don't mind them not keeping her ability to ignore the other targets and just insta burst someone to death, but I'd rather she be closer to Irelia than Sion.

RetillinAug 9, 20151 votes

OH I understand that. I just liked how Poppy now you can be a tank if you want. Or an assassin. Or a tank... Instead of being pushed into one of them.

SpecterVonBarenAug 9, 20151 votes

Well to be fair, Sion does do a metric ton of damage even for being a tank.

Knight SoIaire Aug 10, 20152 votes

have to agree but poppy doesnt feel like a champion who is meant to take hits ... she is indeed durable ... but the most of her satisfaction comes from the fact that she flattens your skull with a hammer

junglerboy16Aug 10, 20152 votes

Thematically, she does scream tanky champ (she's wearing full body armor and carrying a Yordle scaled tower shield) and her current passive actually does make her tanky (it's just very deceptive), and regardless of being chosen as a tank or a Juggernaut, she'd have to be durable.

I do think a more appropriate niche would be as a Diver a-la Jax and Irelia, but Riot is working on making her maintain her dash n' smash gameplay and her siege breaker strengths, even if she is going to be focused on CC over damage.

Also consider that plenty of tanks have "off builds" that turn out to be insanely strong as offensive pseudo-assassins/mages, like Cho'gath, Gragas, and more, while other tanks are actually incredibly damaging anyway, like Sion, Mundo, Volibear and others.

Knight SoIaire Aug 10, 20151 votes

she might be a tank ... but if she has to be one ... make her like sion

i dislike playing tanks who deal barely any damage ... main reason is that i feel obsolete

meanwhile sion is realy cool ... he has that feel of reward

junglerboy16Aug 11, 20151 votes

I agree, If she has to be a tank, make her like Sion.

Col BAug 8, 20152 votes

Could Galio fall into the list of juggernaut?

WarWorkAug 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

More tank (stronger CC focus, so more like Sion than like Garen).

Warwick?

ExecutorDillAug 9, 20151 votes

She sounds awesome. Not really a Poppy fan but if they are two things I admire about her kit. Its her soaking up tons of damage with her ult and her bashing tarheta into walls (which looks super fun). Wouldn't mind her damage being toned down a bit though, seriously.

ThryaleAug 8, 20151 votes

which is closer to "done" status? taric or poppy?

AzureInTheDarkAug 9, 20151 votes

Taric's rework is apparently 'done', but they still have to work on his design, animations, ect. Poppy is in the same situation, but she's a higher priority.

Knight SoIaire Aug 10, 20151 votes

While we are at the topic ... why is mordekaiser's update this small in scale

From s@20 i saw that the only gets an updated kit ... it seems as if CT is actually holding himself back to change him the least possible

What about some better model ... he doesnt seem to have the size or rather height to look somewhat normal and proportional like sion for example also the pizza feet

he could also use some new sounds ... or new VO

considering how his theme can evolve from a metal warlock to a metal giant/warlock/magnetic mage something ... and the problem his ult poses ... he seems like a candidate for some major changes

SormeinAug 10, 20151 votes

when will yorick rework come out or you didn't even start working on him?

ZyorhistAug 8, 20152 votes

Thank you for the response.

In regards to the sub classification breakdown, will we be seeing this more across the board or is this more specifically to this archetype. IE will we start seeing sub classifications of tanks or sub classifications of Marksmen. Mages already kinda have that with the glasscannon vs sustained damage mage vs cc mage.

Also would it be possible to search these archetypes when doing a character search like you currently can with "marksman" or "mage"?

And in regards to your "Light Fighter" need for a name. Go with Skirmishers. Realistically that's what they are and what they excel in. They enjoy a good skirmish and have a way out when they are done.

While I agree that Shyvanna could be more juggernaut I'd think she fell more into the tank side, where she engages with super power but overall is content being the focus of the enemy team, and much less focused on taking people out. Olaf fits your description pretty well too. I know that Yorik is getting a full rework but I wasn't sure if we were looking more at a Fighter setup or a control mage setup, or a juggernaut setup.

As far as other people that may end up in this classification, would Gragas, Trundle, Renekton, Cho, or even J4 be thrown in here. I know you don't want to make the people fit the mold but does the mold fit these people. Would you need to come up with another classification for some of the champions that are currently very bruiser type but don't really have a niche archetype?

RiotMeddlerAug 8, 20153 votes

As you say a bunch of this sort of sub class breakdown already exists (poke mage versus burst mage, utility caster support versus tank support etc). We'll likely look at clarifying some of those groups, particularly those that need items to suit their needs better, but it'll be on a where useful basis, rather than driven by the need to label stuff.

Unsure if we'll add these tags into the search bar or not, we're still talking about that.

Skirmishers is one of the names we've considered, concern we ran into was that it's a very general term. Doesn't tell you much about the sub class in question, in contrast to Diver or Juggernaut for example, and could just as easily apply to someone like Kayle, Teemo, Nidalee or Quinn.

We think juggernaut's probably the closest description for Shyvana because damage output, and ability to kill enemy champions herself, is a really core part of her identity. She's happy soaking some damage certainly, but she's not there primarily to set up/enable her team. Gragas and Cho we've been looking at as tank/mage combinations, Trundle as tank (though he's definitely got some juggenaut characteristics and doesn't fit the tank mold that cleanly), J4 as diver or tank (definitely not a juggernaut given the amount of mobility on his kit).

SolideusAug 8, 20151 votes

This might be a stupid question, but have you considered if Vladimir could work as a juggernaut?

buster kitonAug 8, 20151 votes

Vladimir doesn't really qualify for a juggernaut in my opinion, he has non-melee threat and isn't too tanky by nature.

ZyorhistAug 8, 20151 votes

singed on the other hand...he could be more juggernaut. even kayle could possibly have that.

Teridax68Aug 8, 20153 votes

I think Singed might be more of a genuine tank, since he lives to attract attention (and damage) to himself, on top of damaging targets. He definitely has juggernaut traits, in that he lacks mobility and ranged threat but has a ton of damage and tankiness, but he feels like a lot of his power comes from his ability to divert threat away from allies and towards himself, which is a defining trait of tanks.

Teridax68Aug 8, 20151 votes

Perhaps this might be a tad too fancy, but would the term "Blade dancer" work? Pretty much every light fighter (e.g. MasterYi , Yasuo , Fiora , Tryndamere , Riven probably counts) uses a sword, and as you mentioned their survivability relies on key moments of situational and skill-dependent defense and powerful mobility. "Melee carry" is also commonly used, but the term "carry" tends to imply that these champions can singlehandedly win games for their team, when in fact they tend to be very dependent on their team's assistance to survive teamfights.

Also, by this classification, would Gangplank qualify as a Juggernaut? He lacks the tools to close instantly on his target and makes up for it with a lot of damage and tankiness, which is a hallmark of Juggernauts, but his kit is also super-flexible in that he can also build far more damage than a typical Juggernaut and succeed, and he does possess a degree of ranged threat. Would Udyr qualify as a Juggernaut too, and would you consider working on him to improve his teamfight presence?

ZyorhistAug 9, 20151 votes

tactician?

Icestar1186Aug 9, 20153 votes

Gangplank doesn't tend to build that tanky. He's a bit like Mundo or Voli; he doesn't fit cleanly in one category.

ExecutorDillAug 9, 20151 votes

Trooper....Raider?

junglerboy16Aug 10, 20151 votes

Trundle isn't a tank, he's actually more of a juggernaut than a champ like Skarner.

If you want to give him an appropriate tag, maybe you guys could try "anti-tank". We already have anti-mages (Kass, Veigar, Galio etc.) and anti carries (Irelia, Poppy, Xin Zhao etc.), and Trundle is the champ designed to kill tanks. He is very tanky himself, but his niche is nullifying the enemy tank by stealing their stats and DPS-ing them to death.

He's actually surprisingly similar to Olaf in terms of champion vs champion gameplay, except instead of diving a carry, Trundle dives the frontline.

ExecutorDillAug 8, 20151 votes

Juggernaut Shen Shen ..Please.. I beg you!

His ult doesn't do damage but it'd be funny were actually scared of it.

"Shen's coming!!! Ahh run away'"

RiotMeddlerAug 8, 201516 votes

As in remove his dash and make him more about auto attacking/damage output? Not seeing the Shen+Juggernaut fit sorry, and that's before looking at thematics too.

AzureInTheDarkAug 9, 20152 votes

So then... What is Gnar ?

SeyunxAug 9, 20152 votes

He Is classified under lane bully.

Dextix LTAug 9, 20152 votes

Dont give them ideas. By seeing these juggernaut "reworks" and what riot is doing with morde i want them to stay away from my shen as ffar as they can.

BijornAug 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

We see juggernauts as a sub class of fighters/brawlers/bruisers/whatever else you want to call them. That's a really large group of champions that ranges from the really mobile characters that build damage only, like Tryndamere, to the immobile champs that build tanky like Nasus. We've been looking at a series of sub groups with that larger fighter group as a result as follows:

Juggernauts - Immobile, tough, build one to two offensive items on average (e.g. Nasus or Garen)

Divers - Pretty mobile, and really good at getting onto specific targets they want to kill, builds a little bit more offensively than juggernauts (e.g. Irelia or Xin Zhao)

Light fighters (need a better name for this group - Highly mobile, builds almost entirely offense, often good at killing multiple targets, usually squishy with windowed defense of evasieness (e.g. Trynd or Fiora).

Biggest contrast between tanks and juggernauts is in what each group is trying do. Tanks are generally trying to initiate or peel more, kill by themselves less. They build almost mainly (sometimes exclusively) defense/utility and have a greater amount of mobility, generally tied to initiation or peeling actions.

As far as other juggernauts go, Olaf, Shyvana are the next two we're planning on looking at. Yorick's arguably a juggernaut, he'll get a full relaunch though. Volibear could be described as a juggernaut, though he's also got some diver and tank bits to him. Mundo also shares some juggernaut characteristics, but doesn't really match overall (which is fine, we're looking to use these descriptions as ways to map similarities and differences between champions, not because every champion has to be forced into a specific category).

Stay the fuck away from my Olaf and Shyv. You guys just destroyed Mord. Ignored Yorick for 3 years after you guys stated you would work on him. You guys "attempted" to "fix" Olaf by not actually fixing any of his issues. Only one of my top champs has not been touched and I pray that you guys continue to ignore him. I have lost complete and utter faith in the "tuning up" of champs by you guys. Mord is a disaster. Olaf and Shyv are in decent spots. I can not wait for you guys to destroy them.

At least I can have another couple of months before you ruin Yorick.

AnratonMar 1, 20161 votes

Is there any possiblity that the champions will be official be marked as one of these classes? I think that this would be helping new players to determine, if they want to play a specific champion and how it is ment to play.