An idea to make Tanks tank again: Give them an item that can help protect against Penetration?

5G8Nri0B54··5 votes·739 views

Before the penetration rework when Flat Amount was Calculated before % Penetration, tanky builds work (unless you're up against Vayne of course). But soon after it was changed, armour/MR became so unsatisfying and obsolete as a result. Everyone wants to be glass cannon and bursty. If we reverted that change though, a lot of AD Casters will become obsolete again, as you all remember, Zed was pretty shit upon release.

So how about this then? Keep Penetration the way it is. BUT, introduce a set of items or perhaps a new stat or mechanic that is designed to mitigate the effects of penetration. Like reduce the effectiveness of any % penetration the enemy hitting you will have. All Tanks need is some form of protection against penetration and they can start feeling strong again.

Because at this point right now, the only tank that actually feels like a tank is Maokai, and that's because his Ultimate helps counter-act % penetration by reducing damage taken by % as well.

12 Comments

GloriousKaiser4 votes

Countering the counter? Once is enough, we don't want to loops.

SmokingPuffin4 votes

Before the penetration rework when Flat Amount was Calculated before % Penetration, tanky builds work (unless you're up against Vayne of course). But soon after it was changed, armour/MR became so unsatisfying and obsolete as a result.

Armor/MR would still be weak by design if they reversed the pen formula. Actually, it's quite rare for champions who buy both % and flat pen to be at all interested in attacking tanks.

The reason resistances feel bad is because Riot really dislikes how a low HP / high resistance target reads in their UI. Riot therefore took the design decision to buff health and nerf resistances, so that the best EHP build would also look tanky in the UI.

Everyone wants to be glass cannon and bursty. If we reverted that change though, a lot of AD Casters will become obsolete again, as you all remember, Zed was pretty shit upon release.

You could arrange for Zed to still be good with the reverse pen formula. It would take a bit of effort, as he is one of the champs that thinks building an early LW is good.

Most of the problem with AD casters was that the items simply didn't exist. If you look at the offense Pantheon builds today (item 3071 item 3707 item 3142 item 3156 item 3074 item 3035 ), most of those items were made after season 2.

So how about this then? Keep Penetration the way it is. BUT, introduce a set of items or perhaps a new stat or mechanic that is designed to mitigate the effects of penetration. Like reduce the effectiveness of any % penetration the enemy hitting you will have. All Tanks need is some form of protection against penetration and they can start feeling strong again.

I don't see value here.

Resistances naturally counter flat pen.

%pen must remain extremely strong against tanks, or games don't end on time.

Mandang03 votes

If you want to have tanks be impossible to kill, then I think they also need to have very little damage.
Further, you need to distinguish between tanks with a bunch of utility and tanks without (say Maokai vs Garen or maybe Sion).
Lastly, as Puffin already covered, Riot's chosen to go with HP as the dominant defensive stat because it's easier to read in game. Not saying I think it's a good decision (because I don't), but it's what they've went with.

I think something related to this, however, is how much %HP damage Riot's added to the game as of late. You could see HP being your pen-resistant defense stat, but the %HP damage really rains on that parade. I wish Riot would make health stacking balanced so they didn't need to push %HP damage everywhere, and I think some of that involves making tanks attractive in ways that don't involve damage (that and reining in the bruiser class).

Playgroundlgnd893 votes

How about a.. "belt of chastity" those prevent penetration pretty well..

(Lol)

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Velkoz: No they don't.

Hecarim: It just delays the inevitable.

TehNACHO2 votes

Problem: Fighters abuse this much more than tanks receive help from this.

5G8Nri0B544 votes

Not an issue. We all know that Fighters are all getting a rework anyways.

Tanks on the other hand, aren't getting squat.

qetzel2 votes

This is not the "problem" with tanks at the moment. Early season four was full of tanks - Renekton, Shyvana, Mundo and Trundle were the king and Queen of top lane. This was well after the penetration change.

The problem is that there is no real point where tanks feel balanced. It always feels as though a tank either dies too slowly or too quickly.

Right now, tanks do their job fairly well - enough to make a diffrence. A team with a tank now has a significant advantage over one that doesn't (unless the team without a tank manages to stall to the very late game - 6 item, Zephyr instead of boots lategame - which is unlikely).

5G8Nri0B543 votes

Early season four was full of tanks - Renekton, Shyvana, Mundo and Trundle were the king and Queen of top lane. This was well after the penetration change.

You just listed 3 bruisers and 1 tank...

qetzel1 votes

Shyvana and Trundle were often built full tank.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

That stems more from Riot's design issues.

Plus, people often built pre-rework Sion full AP, does that make him an AP champion?

qetzel1 votes

Well, he wasn't a bruiser when built that way.

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