The Yasuo Balancing that we need, but Rito won't give us

Meserion··3 votes·723 views

The proposed change to Yasuo would not affect his damage values at all or impair his durability, rather it would address his early game's dominant presence. Surprisingly the wiki does not say he has any carry roles like Caitlyn or Tristana, rather he is a Fighter/Assassin. Neither role mentioned on the wiki says that Fighter/Assassins have a sustainable resource system, kind of what Yasuo has at the present. Often one of the big weaknesses for Assassins is a very mana hungry champion and fighters tend to build tanky so they don't have a lot of mana to play with. The simple solution to Yasuo would be to give him a mana bar. A mana bar is a finite resource that one has to itemize for which can slow down damage, however focusing on pure damage makes it more likely that the champion will be caught with no mana. Yasuo would still be able to itemize for it with item 3004 and item 3508, but buying either item slows his damage down a bit or gives him potentially wasted stats (like too much crit). The mana costs would be as follows:

Flow: this would be a graphic that would orbit Yasuo on the ground similar to targets affected by Vayne 's silver bolts, it would exist as 3 "tiers" with each tier representing how much flow he has, with full tiers he would have a full bar effectively.

[Q] Steel Tempest: Mana cost would be 60/70/80/90/100 and each rank would now reduce the cooldown of it by 0.2/0.3/0.4/0.5/0.6 for every 1% of attack speed instead of a flat 0.6% for every 1% attack speed.

[W] Windwall: Mana cost would be 100 at all ranks but would refund 50 mana if it absorbs an enemy spell.

[E] Sweepng Blade: Mana cost would be 50 at all ranks but each successive use of sweeping blade would double the mana cost up to a max of 400 mana per cast.

**[ult] Last Breath: **Mana cost would be 100/150/200 mana and would refund the total mana cost if Yasuo manages to kill an enemy champion with the initial damage.

So the scaling was changed on his Q so there would be a reason to max it first to consider, however if the player wants a more bursty mode they can max later and maybe max his E 1st for extra damage. Sweeping blade is essentially a non ultimate version of Kassadin ultimate with a lower cooldown and being tied to minions; this change parallels with how Kassadin functions who is ALSO an Assassin. The mana refund on his W highlights the point of using his W to block actual spells and not just deny last hits.

Make no mistake Yasuo can out-scale this but it makes his "complete" build require more than 2 items to function. item 3508 is a great fit for him because of his crit passive so rushing it early would give him sustained mana, but he would not have the extra damage from item 3031 . So more decision would be required but his output would be mostly unchanged.

As an example his mana bar could be the same as Master Yi's (251 – 965)

15 Comments

IronwallJackson4 votes

There's so much wrong with this.... Yo, straight up, Yasuo was made to spam abilities at-will. That's why the base damages on his Q and E are fairly low when compares to other melee-range abilities. Mana works as a gating mechanism to prevent some champions from spamming their more impactful abilities.

You can't have Yasuo be yasuo with a resource. It would either change the way he plays entirely or have costs low enough to be inconsequential. Whether a champion has a resource to manage or not is based on their individual needs; don't just add or remove a resource haphazardly.

Meserion1 votes

If you understand how item 3508 works with him every melee and Q would restore 3% of his max mana pool every-time they hit with 100% crit. with the proposed mana pool shown: it would restore 7.53-28.95 on every melee, this coupled with his semi-permanent crit means he gets mana back almost constantly. He would have to pool his mana just like any Assassin has to.

Also on the base damage of his Q his can can crit so that acts like free AD of 100 at max rank, so yeah that is a lot and it can hit multiple targets. the lowered attack speed scaling is to avoid the situation where you get 1 point in his Q and max last with no downsides.

If you read about Assassins and Fighters in the wiki, it does not say a champion is spammy, rather they have to be planful as an Assassin, or do very little burst but it adds up over time as a Fighter. Spamming is a side effect of having no mana pool to worry about.

IronwallJackson1 votes

I don't need to read the wiki to know what Essence Reaver does, nor how assassins or melee carries play.

Ability spam is a result of both low cooldowns and lacking concerns about resource management. Ziggs can throw out Qs every 3 seconds or so by the end or the game and rarely thinks about mana by that point. Gnar throws out his Q constantly, but not his E, because the former has a low cooldown and the latter does not.

Champions have resources according to their needs. If Ziggs had no mana bar, he'd be impossible to lane against. If Renekton gained rage at a slower pace, it would hit his damage output severely.

Yasuo was not made to use mana. Nothing about his kit would interact well with that kind of gating system, and the fact that he could build Essence Reaver does not change that. Because that's what mana is. It's system made to limit what champions can do, and the fact that Yasuo and several other champions were made resourceless means that they're balanced around that aspect of their kits. They don't require that specific gating mechanism.

Just stop. It's not the execution of your idea are flawed; it's that it's fundamentally misguided. There's so much to say about this that I keep editing this post and hardly know where to stop.

Meserion1 votes

{quoted}

I don't need to read the wiki to know what Essence Reaver does, nor how assassins or melee carries play.

Ability spam is a result of low cooldowns and either abundant or non-existant resources. Ziggs can throw out Qs every 3 seconds or so by the end or the game and rarely concerns himself with mana by that point. Gnar throws out his Q constantly, but not his E, because the former has a low cooldown and the latter does not.

Champions have resources according to their needs. If Ziggs had no mana bar, he'd be impossible to lane against. If Renekton gained rage at a slower pace, it would hit his damage output severely.

Yasuo was not made to use mana. Nothing about his kit would interact well with that kind of gating system, and the fact that he could build Essence Reaver does not change that.

Just stop.

No you see, between the Tornado of his Q, the Windwall-that-blocks-things-it-shouldn't, and the fact he floats in midair with ult indicates to me that there is a lot of magic in his kit; Very potent too if you consider his Windwall. The use of magic cost something in this game, health, life, long cooldowns, mana, SOMETHING. Yasuo has none of these he has a bar of "flow" that only serves to give him a shield and be a excuse to not have a mana bar.

Face it, he uses potent magic that no enchant or armor could give, thus he needs a mana bar to permit that level of power.

You did not read the wiki, so your argument falls flat. I'm using the wiki as a reference, so if you choose to ignore printed evidence, your very argument is in jeopardy of falling through. As for your remark of Ziggs not having a mana bar, Yasuo is basically him without a global ultimate.

Also final note: normally knockups are not a huge deal, but they're basically suppression effects with motion involved. Because his ultimate extends the knockup up time, It also suppresses the affected targets meaning you cannot cleanse his ult, Flash out of it, or do anything while this is going on. This makes his ult very toxic because it takes a semi-annoying idea like knockarounds, and makes it much worse.

I know my opinion is not popular but In my experiences, it is the truth. THe hard painful truth, but the truth nevertheless.

Spicy Rice1 votes
  1. You are mixing thematic issues with balancing issues, which is never a good idea.

  2. Wut? Yasuo = Ziggs without global ult? Is anyone else confused here?

  3. Yasuo's ult is not a knock up, but a suspension, meaning it is reduced by tenacity and can be clensed. Something you would know if you took any time to even look up what his ultimate did on the wiki you so fanatically reference

Meserion1 votes

{quoted}

  1. You are mixing thematic issues with balancing issues, which is never a good idea.

  2. Wut? Yasuo = Ziggs without global ult? Is anyone else confused here?

  3. Yasuo's ult is not a knock up, but a suspension, meaning it is reduced by tenacity and can be clensed. Something you would know if you took any time to even look up what his ultimate did on the wiki you so fanatically reference

.#1 How is it a bad idea? in a world of logic and reason, even a video game world, his theme'ing should obey the rules of the world. Having a guy "bend the wind to his will" by sheer force of will sounds like Magic, or he is some elemental being; But no he is just an average guy that has been made an outcast.

.#2 Both have fairly short cooldowns and provide a lot of zoning built into their kit. Both possess a knockup effect and can choose when to activate it. Ziggs has a global ult which is the only big difference.

.#3 As stated previously, things where misunderstood. There is always more to learn everyday. The wiki is a huge well-spring of knowledge, when you consider there are over 100 champions in League, its easy to overlook minuscule details. His ult still requires a knockup which does have a form of "pseudo- suppression", its understandable then that one would also believe his ult also applies a suppression.

IronwallJackson1 votes

Garen smites his enemies with some sort of Demacian magic light sword. Katarina can teleport. Rek-Sai spits rage magic and void-hops. None of them use mana. Mechanics and appearances ideally complement each other, but neither are slaves to one another. Just because it looks like magic means it needs to use mana.

You know what? I'll humor you and use an appeal to thematics. Yasuo is is a master of the wind and it bends to his will as a matter of course rather than him having to exert his will over it.

Now, as for the wiki, I never said I didn't read it. I said I don't need to check it to know what I'm talking about because the wiki isn't an absolute font of knowledge and I'm informed enough to not need to reference it to discuss this subject.

Also, you can cleans Yasuo's ult. GP can eat his orange and escape, it can be QSS's and so on. I'm not even sure what to say about the rest, because it's straight up nonsense.

Meserion1 votes

Things where misunderstood, however Garen Katarina and RekSai all have significant cooldowns tied to their abilities, so that is the cost I'm talking about. Yasuo has what a Q with a 4 second lowed by up to 66% or 4 seconds to 1.36 second cooldown, yeah thats not a cooldown. Or a E with a 0.5-0.1 cooldown on it, yeah that isn't a cooldown either; both abilities don't much of any cost, and their cooldowns are so insignificant.

How does Yasuo bend the wind to his will? He not a psychic like Irelia so the only other option is, MAGIC.

IronwallJackson1 votes

Part of our argument basically boiled down to "it looks like magic and thus should use mana." That means that those other champions shouldn't get a free pass just because they have higher cooldowns. Be consistent.

More importantly, magic doesn't need to use mana and mana-using champions don't need to use magic. Mana isn't a thematic gameplay element. It's just a limiter. That's it. Even if Yasuo was a wizard, that wouldn't be a good argument for him using mana

Meserion1 votes

{quoted}

Part of our argument basically boiled down to "it looks like magic and thus should use mana." That means that those other champions shouldn't get a free pass just because they have higher cooldowns. Be consistent.

More importantly, magic doesn't need to use mana and mana-using champions don't need to use magic. Mana isn't a thematic gameplay element. It's just a limiter. That's it. Even if Yasuo was a wizard, that wouldn't be a good argument for him using mana

Thing is, one could say they get their magic from Enchantments on a weapon or Armor. But true magic is very strong, thus it should cost something significant. One could argue for example Garen's ultimate comes from his sword, but it has to recharge, hence the long cooldown. Veigar's Ultimate costs a lot of mana and has quite a cooldown, that is a twofold cost partially because for mages, mana becomes somewhat irrelvant late game, thus the cooldown keeps it relevant.

I'd be prepared to let Yasuo's ult be free, but the fact it can fully refund its mana from kill provides so much followup potential that I chose to give it a mana cost. His Windwall, however, is like an ultimate but costs literally nothing, and the only reason it has a long cooldown, is Yasuo would be broken if it was short.

In fantasy worlds mana is indeed a thematic element, it is the proverbial "life-blood" of magic residing in every living creature. Sometimes it exists naturally in pools and sometimes it refers to a mental reserve of power that is drained as one uses magic. Hell-yes its thematic. It highlights the simple idea that Magic has costs that must be paid in order to use it. The benefits can be very substantial, if you're willing to pay. Even Vladimir pays. He uses blood magic which draws power, or perhaps the 'mana' itself from his blood which fuels the powers he uses.

Mana is not just a LoL theme'ing it has a place in literally every fantasy game and universe out there.

Frost the Reaper2 votes

On his ult i hope you mean 200 and not 2000 as I doubt he'd have 2000 mana to use.

Meserion1 votes

{quoted}

On his ult i hope you mean 200 and not 2000 as I doubt he'd have 2000 mana to use.

thx for that, too many zeros :P

Spicy Rice1 votes

I hope you realuze, for yaauo to function with these costs, either his skills would need somethjng like a 300% ad ratio, or he would something like 700 to 800 base mana, with him having the highest base mana pool in the game at level 18

Meserion1 votes

no his abilities would not need to be changed, note how item 3508 , it scales with 3% of MAX mana. This means getting something like item 3078 would improve your mana regen. Also note that the prroposed mana pool is an example idea, and would not be the CONFIRMED pool size.

Meserion1 votes

Downvoting a Yasuo post means one of two things: You're a Yasuo main and therefore have a bais towards any changes to him that is not a damage buff, or two my post may indeed be flawed; and you are pointing out flaws in a constructive manner while providing other ideas alongside criticisms...

Just saying...

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