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Thresh in need of mechanical nerfs

Meserion··19 votes·1,326 views

Whether its normal queue or ranked, in almost every match hes either picked or banned because mechanically hes way too powerful. He is a cross between Blitzcrank and Leona with a grab mechanic and way too much engage power. However unlike the aforementioned two, he has everything in his kit. He also has free scaling both in Armor and Ability power that cost no gold, only time. While this means he has no base armor, it does means hes like the defensive version of veigar and nasus, though, in that its both AP and armor is absurd.

Then their is the weirdness of his auto attacks which are not ranged but have a ton of range on them and because they're not projectiles champions like braum and yasuo can't block them. Enough of my rant I suppose, let me propose some nerfs that aren't unreasonable and should make the support pick pool a bit more diverse than Thresh, Thresh , Thresh, Thresh, Sona, Thresh, Leona , Thresh.

Consider all these changes to be independant of each other and should not be considered all part of one big nerf; pick one but not all of them.

Let me repeat the message...

Consider all these changes to be independant of each other and should not be considered all part of one big nerf; pick one but not all of them.

~~ His passive Damnation no longer gives ability power with each soul.

Comments: Considering he functions like Veigar and Nasus in that he has a infinitely scaling attribute giving both AP and armor is too much, either one or the other and armor will serve him better and AP is already taken :3. Also since his abilities, in particular his ult, have an AP ratio, free damage from consuming souls is pretty unfair.

~~ _ His Q Death Sentence_ Stun Duration reduced to 1.5 second 1 second and now the stun has to travel a minimum of 500 units to apply. Also that secondary effect Death Leap will now properly break the stun and allow the player to move away rather than just immobilize them. Mana cost increased to 80 mana 110 mana at all ranks, but refunds 55 mana on successful hit of enemy champion. _ Comments:_ This is a big one, his Q forces a defensive play on the part of the enemies in lane because he can spam it non-stop, with this change thresh now has to actually land the stun at long range instead of "face-stunning" players who are standing right next to him. it allows him to engage already so lowering the stun duration is reasonable because this move is an opener to the rest of his kit. The mana cost is increaed to encourage intelligent use of his Q and punish those who mindlessly spam it all day; it also rewards those who successfully land his Q on players. The Death Leap change is a bug that needs to be fixed.

~~ Dark Passage no longer can be used to consume souls that are out of range

Comments: His lantern is a defining skill of his and honestly its ok even if those escapes can be infuriating. The fact he can suck up souls with it is too useful, it allow him to safely gather souls from up to almost 1000 units away (950 cast range) and considering what those souls do its a tad unfair. Also I'd rather our friendly chain warden doesn't safely snowball 950 units away, and instead have to take risks like everyone else in lane; this mechanic makes him too safe.

~~ Thresh's Flay active effect no longer applies a slow effect

Comments: knockbacks/knockups/knockaround skills are basically stuns with movement thrown in. You cannot stop them from happening and in many cases these effects send you a long way out of position. Considering the utility of directional knockbacks from Flay that the player can choose where EVERY 9 SECONDS or 5 seconds with 40% cooldown reduction, having a 1 second slow tacked on to what is effectively a spammable AoE stun is a bit excessive.

~~ The Box is now an actual box, 4 sides not 5, and slow amount reduced to 80%.

Comments: a 99% slow is crazy you're moving at 1% movement speed you might as well be stunned (notice how thats a common theme in this post?), the reduction makes it so escape can plausible if you play your cards right, also the thing about 4 sides instead of 5 is a pet-peeve of mine because when have you EVER seen a box with 5 sides?

~~

Let me reiterate something I said earlier in the post:

Consider all these changes to be independant of each other and should not be considered all part of one big nerf; pick one but not all of them.

TL:DR There is no "too long didn't read", go away. Also:

Consider all these changes to be independant of each other and should not be considered all part of one big nerf; pick one but not all of them.

Thoughts? Comments?

28 Comments

qetzel11 votes

http://lumberjocks.com/assets/pictures/projects/113039.jpg

Meserion1 votes

{quoted}

http://lumberjocks.com/assets/pictures/projects/113039.jpg

ok fair point, but still that box not very practical...

DeathToHeretics5 votes

I think that says enough.

Also, you're seriously thinking of denying his lantern the ability to pick up souls? That's the thing he houses them in. Thematically and logically it just makes sense for Thresh to be able to use his W to collect souls. It also looks pretty damn cool when he tosses it backwards to collect, while walking away.

You say you want Thresh to have to take risks like everyone else, what about Katarina Heimerdinger Leblanc Zed ? Thresh has to rely on another person to get himself souls and strength. That's a pretty damn big risk, placing his entire success or failure on someone else. Nerfing a champion mechanically is rarely the right answer. Why nerf the skill it takes to play a champion?

Meserion1 votes

{quoted}

Thresh has to rely on another person to get himself souls and strength. That's a pretty damn big risk, placing his entire success or failure on someone else.

ADCs do the exact same thing that is why supports exist. anyway because of his weird melee attack range he can be played as an ADC and still get souls.

Meserion1 votes

{quoted}

I think that says enough.

Also, you're seriously thinking of denying his lantern the ability to pick up souls? That's the thing he houses them in. Thematically and logically it just makes sense for Thresh to be able to use his W to collect souls. It also looks pretty damn cool when he tosses it backwards to collect, while walking away.

You say you want Thresh to have to take risks like everyone else, what about Katarina Heimerdinger Leblanc Zed ? Thresh has to rely on another person to get himself souls and strength. That's a pretty damn big risk, placing his entire success or failure on someone else. Nerfing a champion mechanically is rarely the right answer. Why nerf the skill it takes to play a champion?

I'd be ok with it too if it didn't have 950 unit cast range, do you know who else has 950 unit of cast range? quite a few actually cast ranges, but all those abilities don't allow them to pull people out of danger or give them free stats like armor and AP.

DeathToHeretics2 votes

I'll reply to both of your posts in one.

{quoted}

ADCs do the exact same thing that is why supports exist. anyway because of his weird melee attack range he can be played as an ADC and still get souls.

Just because someone can be played somewhere, doesn't mean they should or are best there. You want to play Soraka Jungle? By all means. Nocturne mid lane? Go right ahead! But again, just because you can doesn't mean you should. You may have fun, but generally your team will feel weighted down. You don't usually play Thresh for the upgraded AA. You play Thresh for the CC and utility he brings to a team. Also, eventually an ADC can survive on their own. ADC's are weak at the beginning, as are supports. However, supports are the only class that consistently end the game lower leveled and with less gold than every single member of their team, and sometimes even the opposing team.

The difference with Thresh's W and the abilities listed there, is that his doesn't do damage. Nami's listed ability damages, slows, and even knocks up. Rumble's slows and heavily damages, and easily turns a teamfight in the midgame. Orianna's shields and gives free stats.

The thing is, Thresh's "free stats" aren't free. They cost him his passive, and he has no scaling armor nor magic resist. That is a huuuge trade off, despite being some "free stats like armor and ap." Not to mention, he has to kill things or be near dead things just to get it to activate. His passive is very situational. The spell itself doesn't just give him free stats, he has to think about using it for souls or saving a teammate.

iM Uranium2 votes

His passive Damnation no longer gives ability power with each soul.

Comments: Considering he functions like and in that he has a infinitely scaling attribute giving both AP and armor is too much, either one or the other and armor will serve him better and AP is already taken :3. Also since his abilities, in particular his ult, have an AP ratio, free damage from consuming souls is pretty unfair.

~~That would basically make him no longer what he is. THRESH. He is all about Consuming souls to get stronger.

His Q Death Sentence Stun Duration reduced to 1.5 second 1 second and now the stun has to travel a minimum of 500 units to apply. Also that secondary effect Death Leap will now properly break the stun and allow the player to move away rather than just immobilize them. Mana cost increased to 80 mana 110 mana at all ranks, but refunds 55 mana on successful hit of enemy champion.

Comments: This is a big one, his Q forces a defensive play on the part of the enemies in lane because he can spam it non-stop, with this change thresh now has to actually land the stun at long range instead of "face-stunning" players who are standing right next to him. it allows him to engage already so lowering the stun duration is reasonable because this move is an opener to the rest of his kit. The mana cost is increaed to encourage intelligent use of his Q and punish those who mindlessly spam it all day; it also rewards those who successfully land his Q on players. The Death Leap change is a bug that needs to be fixed.

~~Not all players are defensive. What about offensive players or playing against champs like alistar. Your basically countered hard or Morgana, or Sivir. You are rendered useless. You can't spam it as much as you can late game, but again you MUST land it in order to get the CD bonus, early game that can be a long time when you are in a clutch.

Dark Passage no longer can be used to consume souls that are out of range

Comments: His lantern is a defining skill of his and honestly its ok even if those escapes can be infuriating. The fact he can suck up souls with it is too useful, it allow him to safely gather souls from up to almost 1000 units away (950 cast range) and considering what those souls do its a tad unfair. Also I'd rather our friendly chain warden doesn't safely snowball 950 units away, and instead have to take risks like everyone else in lane; this mechanic makes him too safe.

~~The light that come off lantern is what looks for souls that it can bring it. I just feel that is not bad at all. He has to go in EVERYTIME he wants to grab souls himself, W can't be spammed that much honestly. ESPECIALLY early game. I rather walk up and take the abuse to get soul so I can use W for disengages or engages for ganks, etc...

Thresh's Flay active effect no longer applies a slow effect

Comments: knockbacks/knockups/knockaround skills are basically stuns with movement thrown in. You cannot stop them from happening and in many cases these effects send you a long way out of position. Considering the utility of directional knockbacks from Flay that the player can choose where EVERY 9 SECONDS or 5 seconds with 40% cooldown reduction, having a 1 second slow tacked on to what is effectively a spammable AoE stun is a bit excessive.

~~I would be ok with that ONLY if they would flay them further back or forward depending on direction he is flaying only for fact they aren't really flayed that far. The slow makes it to where it gives a little more window to keep engaging or escaping.

The Box is now an actual box, 4 sides not 5, and slow amount reduced to 80%.

Comments: a 99% slow is crazy you're moving at 1% movement speed you might as well be stunned (notice how thats a common theme in this post?), the reduction makes it so escape can plausible if you play your cards right, also the thing about 4 sides instead of 5 is a pet-peeve of mine because when have you EVER seen a box with 5 sides?

~~NO I never seen a box with 4 sides. I seen a box with 6 SIDES. That's right buddy! 6 SIDED BOX. TOP, BOTTOM, AND SIDES. So Let's add another wall in to be more accurate not take a wall away. In that case.....Call it THE SQUARE. If you rather have a stun that I am ok with that. That would actually be a lot more op than the slow honestly.

My 2 Cents.

P.S. Thresh has taken quite a few nerfs in past ESPECIALLY with his Auto attack range that made him a nice OUT-OF-META ADC. But I feel TOP lane is still viable because I still do it. Problem is makes him more of a MID-Late Game Champ with Insane Speed Damage. (IE. Static, Tri, BT, Zephyr,Phantom) WURF!

shadowstorm325 votes

His passive gives AP and armor because he has no armor scaling per level, less armor to start with, and so he has to collect souls constantly throughout game to keep up with others for armor. basically, it gives AP because otherwise his passive would be nothing more than telling you he has crappy armor scaling. Also, its quite easy to harass/punish thresh for grabbing souls.

I agree that something should be done about the lack of diversity in support right now, but this is not the way to go about it. Thresh should be nerfed, to a degree, not this much. I'd rather see other supports buffed rather than busting out ye olde nerfbat.

my humble opinion

DomainSpecific2 votes

Just give Thresh scaling MR and make him melee.

Seriously, he has longer range than Urgot.

Apollocliptic2 votes

Something I like to say about Thresh that many people seem to overlook. He is exceptionally powerful in the laning phase, but his skillset is particularly lackluster in late game team fights. If you rush in and cluster up his CC can be Annoying "ANNOYING" but compared to leona for example, he doesn't perform so well in larger fights, where his skills are design for 2v2 combat. He can't heal, his Ulti got nerfed to the point it's more for the slow than damage, and can be ignored or have one tank soak up the walls creating a path for carries. Or it can be ignored altogether. He is a strong champ, but he can be outplayed and outmatched completely. He is not overpowered, he is just VERY strong in SOME circumstances, take him out of his comfort zone and you can walk all over him. Or communicate as a team (which is why he is stronger in soloQ) because unlike bard, it's easy to tell what Thresh wants you to do, but it's hard to get players to work around him. Don't chase a low hp vayne on your own if Thresh is gonna peel for her, stay in the team and he becomes overwhelmed. poke him down after a failed engage, he has no escapes like Leona, just don't chase or focus him if the adc comes back to help.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Something I like to say about Thresh that many people seem to overlook. He is exceptionally powerful in the laning phase, but his skillset is particularly lackluster in late game team fights. If you rush in and cluster up his CC can be Annoying "ANNOYING" but compared to leona for example, he doesn't perform so well in larger fights, where his skills are design for 2v2 combat. He can't heal, his Ulti got nerfed to the point it's more for the slow than damage, and can be ignored or have one tank soak up the walls creating a path for carries. Or it can be ignored altogether. He is a strong champ, but he can be outplayed and outmatched completely. He is not overpowered, he is just VERY strong in SOME circumstances, take him out of his comfort zone and you can walk all over him. Or communicate as a team (which is why he is stronger in soloQ) because unlike bard, it's easy to tell what Thresh wants you to do, but it's hard to get players to work around him. Don't chase a low hp vayne on your own if Thresh is gonna peel for her, stay in the team and he becomes overwhelmed. poke him down after a failed engage, he has no escapes like Leona, just don't chase or focus him if the adc comes back to help.

Thresh is stronger in solo q, really? He's the best support in competitive play by far (most popular champion at MSI, no other support came close), I would say he's actually quite a bit worse in solo q.

Still think he's too strong in solo q (37% pick rate while still having a not-totally-awful winrate is ridiculous for a supposedly difficult champion) but I don't think he's a case of "better in solo q because nobody knows how to communicate" at all. He has always done best in competitive play.

Apollocliptic1 votes

If he's better in competitive he's better, I won't argue against that, but I've just noticed that teamwork generally defeats thresh, whereas players with their own agenda get caught by him and don't understand why they can't secure that kill.

Maybe I should have said he is stronger in lower elo??? I won't claim it without more knowledge though, I've just never had a hard time against him passed the Lane phase, unless we are already losing and he keeps hooking the squishy carries so we have no way to catch up. In even games I don't worry about Thresh and focus on the champs that ARE getting in the way

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

If he's better in competitive he's better, I won't argue against that, but I've just noticed that teamwork generally defeats thresh, whereas players with their own agenda get caught by him and don't understand why they can't secure that kill.

Maybe I should have said he is stronger in lower elo??? I won't claim it without more knowledge though, I've just never had a hard time against him passed the Lane phase, unless we are already losing and he keeps hooking the squishy carries so we have no way to catch up. In even games I don't worry about Thresh and focus on the champs that ARE getting in the way

I agree with you in some ways but not others. You're really right - Thresh kind of seems to stop doing stuff after the laning phase. He's definitely not the most active member of a team fight, so when it comes to "omg let's group" he seems to fall off. But he has more utility later on than you'd think, mostly in skirmishes (I think you said he's a lot better in small fights, and that's true). He can get people who aren't grouping away from dangerous situations, he can get enemy people into dangerous situations, etc.

And don't forget that his laning phase being so strong means that even though he himself doesn't do much later on, the ADC he's gotten ahead will more than make up for that. His laning phase is great for snowballing because he has such good engage, and he's also good at preventing the enemy snowballing because his kit is also really good at disengage. Thresh is a mediocre team fighter later but the ADC he's likely got ahead isn't and he is still great in skirmishes and other small-scale fights that do occur late.

Apollocliptic1 votes

Yeah, you make a good point on the fact that the adc will now be ahead thanks to his strong early, and since thresh has such a good engage AND disengage it's hard to play agro or safe against him.

And controlling teamfights later to avoid big fights and prefer skirmishes is part of utilising him

Sir Yamazuki1 votes

Would also like to fix the issue with him collecting souls when he's no where near them, if they haven't yet. I never saw a post about this happening even though I saw it happening for months.

EffectFX1 votes

Then their is the weirdness of his auto attacks which are not ranged but have a ton of range on them and because they're not projectiles

Just wanted to mention that it is counted as a ranged basic attack.

Meserion1 votes

{quoted}

Just wanted to mention that it is counted as a ranged basic attack.

that has no projectile, that also triggers relic shield if you use it even though relic shield only triggers from melee attacks...

EffectFX3 votes

Kayle's E doesn't have a projectile and is a ranged attack. Unless they recently changed it, it does not proc relic shield execute.

Edit: Just so you're not confused Relic shield heal/gold does proc on ranged champions, but the execute does not.

Rateth2 votes

The effect of sharing gold is triggered as long as anybody that has a relic shield kills a minion while another teammate is present. Thresh doesn't benefit from the execute portion of the relic shield like a melee champion would because he's classified as ranged.

Marthian2 votes

Being a projectile or not has nothing to do with triggering relic shield. You can trigger Relic shield with any ranged attack (heck any ability), you just do not get the melee bonus of auto-executing if they are below X HP.

The reason some people take Relic Shield on Thresh is because he has a pretty easy time last hitting because his auto attack has very little travel time, his E helps with last hitting, and he benefits from going tanky.

terkmc1 votes

You do know slow have diminishing return so 99% isnt actually that high, which is why everyone is crying abt Zilean new slow q-q

Marthian1 votes

Still, it's very crippling.

Zone of Endless1 votes

Remove his E's passive

Those are just extraneous power he doesn't need. That's all I really care about. 80% slow is the same as 99% slow. There's a cap where your speed can't be lower than 175 or something.

Remove the 3 seconds lowered CD on Q when he lands them too.

Marthian1 votes

My biggest issue with him is just he deals a little too much damage for the insane amount of utility he brings. Removing AP or reducing how much AP he gets from each soul sounds like a good start. Edit: Or just reduce the ratios on everything but his shield.

jjookkeerr1 votes

remove his E passive and slow from know up, also increase the windup from his Q

YossarianSensei1 votes

No, he really doesn't. He's easy to counterplay, has weak base stats, and gets dumpstered in lane if he can't land a hook. Also his souls don't stack like Nasus Q's, you can't actually farm a billion souls - there's a soft limit on how quickly he can stack.

The only thing truly remarkable on him is his Lantern.

Tengrichan1 votes

Ok.Then give him back shielding on every ally on lantern and give back full damage on every wall that hits an enemy champion whether it has been hit by one or not doesn't matter.

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