Rito loves Counterplay

Proelium·Feb 23, 2015·23 votes·2,408 views

Ever had to lane as top against ?

Maybe the worst experience ever.

48 Comments

GloriousKaiserFeb 23, 201510 votes

Rito loves Counterplay

Is that why they keep nerfing it?

ScurvyNaveFeb 23, 201510 votes

Yeah the entire mobility creep has screwed over most top lanes with the exception of super tanks like Maokai and Mundo. It seems like everyone else such as Trundle and Shyvana can rot for all that riot cares.

YorukinFeb 24, 20151 votes

Not every supertank works there, even. Malphite has to contend with nasty mana problems, Nautilus is pretty much guaranteed to lose lane against any kind of AD champion, and Sejuani has next to nothing in the way of harass. But hey, at least they all have mobility, right? ...Right?

ScurvyNaveFeb 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Not every supertank works there, even. Malphite has to contend with nasty mana problems, Nautilus is pretty much guaranteed to lose lane against any kind of AD champion, and Sejuani has next to nothing in the way of harass. But hey, at least they all have mobility, right? ...Right?

LoL. League of Legends 2014-2015: If you don't have a dash and use mana get out of the game.

ZmuecatFeb 24, 20159 votes

Yeah, but you obiously could have out played her. Every time she attacks you could have flash onto her so you could keep beating on her.

...

What, champions don't have flash built into their passive?

Ulquiorra995Feb 24, 20157 votes

Unfortunately we'll have to deal with it until the fighter rework comes around in 2030 or so.

Sad, but it's how low-mobility champions stand in this game. Remove Kalista from the equation, it'll accomplish nothing. It'd just be Vayne, Quinn and Lissandra all over again.

TerffFeb 23, 20156 votes

oh lord... I'm sorry for your loss ;_;

ProeliumFeb 23, 201518 votes

That was like two weeks ago so I'm not upset with it anymore.

However, it was horrible in that no matter what I did she had every advantage. My pillar? Hop hop hop...

"just wait for ganks!" Yes, because that's what I want to do, get no creep and sit under my tower waiting for my jungler who may or may not suck anyway to come top and lose valuable objectives like Dragon.

If Riot is all about there being counterplay and no true hard counters than they've way overlooked this.lol

SouL1essFeb 24, 201514 votes

Riot only considered champion-champion interactions based on expected lane-match-up or roles.

They never considered interaction outside of bot lane vs. bot lane, top lane vs. top lane, etc...so if champions from one lane goes into another Riot is suddenly as a loss for options...

ProeliumFeb 24, 201517 votes

That makes Riot sound pretty ignorant of their own game...

SouL1essFeb 24, 20154 votes

Well from my observations, every time someone from one lane goes to another, especially ranged with some distinct advantage that counter melee initiation (Quinn vs. Gapcloser Bruiser, for example), the laning phase becomes ridiculously difficult for the melee, which isn't particularly supposed to happen.

I think Riot is expecting jungle presence to make up for that difference in lane presence...but overall, I feel that champions are balanced based on how well they fare against expected matchups, not based on their position in the global champion pool OR champion-item interactions.

SlaaneshineFeb 24, 20152 votes

I never really thought about this. Goes to show how much Riot is pushing meta building in the end of it all. And the real issue with this is that this kind of match up doesn't work the other way around in most cases. Trundle versus Kalista , Kalista wins. No matter what lane you go to. So essentially as the mobility creep worsens, it will make champions like Trundle weak just because they exist, not because Trundle himself is weak (which in reality he isn't at all).

SammystormFeb 24, 20152 votes

Kinda inaccurate. Trundle is worse then ranged top laners because he isn't ranged yes. However kalista hasn't added to that problem and even if she sees play top won't make trundle any worse then he already is. The game is so saturated with mobility that trundle can have a hard time regardless of what ranged top laner fights him.

Tieria ErdeFeb 24, 20151 votes

With Kalista top I wonder what the rest of the team comp was. In my experience as a Garen player I see this mismatch quite often because there is no concept of teamwork in the mtches I am in. Players are tired of trying to play jungle or support in this environment dominated by toxic ADCs. Against Kalista top I have had no problems winning the match with a proper team on my side that can work together. Yes it is horrible and discouraging to spend the early game hiding under turret, but the oppsoing team suffers in the end trying to survive without a tanky top champion.

I do agree the mobility creep is dangerous with champions like gnar, but the frustration seeing Kalista top is in my opinion a low ELO symptom of how difficult players find the jungle and support roles inder the shadow of high burst damage and high mobility champions.

lojicianFeb 24, 20152 votes

Tanky top champions (unless they're some mao-esque tank with tons of cc and a huge defensive steriod) aren't even good lategame let alone important. They get shredded by adcs and can't do as much in a teamfight as ranged aps.

Basically the role of fighters right now is to suck horribly in lane, be good for a few midgame teamfights where the opposing adc hasn't bought last whisper and started laughing at you yet, then suck again.

MinrogFeb 24, 20151 votes

It could be a lane swap like what you see in competitive play. Where the ADC takes the solo lane and the support roams/leeches off of everyone until late laning phase. The other side lane would have their top laner faced off against the opposing team's ADC.

Lane swaps are why you don't see Trundle in the LCS anymore, because unlike Lissandra/Maokai/Irelia he's completely ouclassed in a 1v2 or when facing a 1v1 vs ranged.

Edit:

I do believe that Kalista's passive is too strong, but only during the mid-game and team fights. A rival ADC can smoke Kalista if they end up in a duel but that condition doesn't happen because they spend their post 10-minute spikes chewing up enemy assassins/tanks and doing cleanup. Kalista is pretty bad at seiging towers, but awesome at putting baron/dragon on lock.

YOU BEEN WARNEDFeb 24, 20155 votes

not necessarily, Vayne Lissandra Karma were signaled to be viable top lane on release ( not sure about vayne, but definitely karma and liss. )

Playing against them toplane ( someone who plays them correctly, mind you. )

Is one of the worst experiences in life as a whole, provided this is a fucking video game where you're supposed to have fun.

Knight SoIaire Feb 24, 20151 votes

teamfights ?

lojicianFeb 24, 20153 votes

Nah. Ranged tops have been there for ages and have always been a pain in the ass, and post doran's shield gutting have always been straight up broken. Riot just refuses to balance ranged vs melee laning. It's not some general "some champions going to other lanes might be imbalanced". It's specifically ranged champions going to the lane where people try to play melees.

SouL1essFeb 24, 20151 votes

Riot just refuses to balance ranged vs melee laning

But that's exactly what I'm saying.

Top champions are balanced based on the interaction of champions by expected match-ups. Ryze was fine as a mid champion but the moment he became a top laner in the meta he "needed" nerfs, because Riot never considered how ranged champions can crush top lane meta, a place where Riot intended melee bruisers to be, until the ranged champions started going top.

Same thing with Kalista. In the ADC/Support bot lane meta, she is more or less bearable: there's no one that she can hilariously kite because ADC/supports either have ranged attacks/poke or have good duration CC. However at top, no bruiser can trade properly with Kalista (unless your name is Jax and you are above level 6) because they are intended to deal damage over time but Kalista denies champions that can fight but has no way to stick (with roots/stuns).

lojicianFeb 24, 20151 votes

My point was it's specifically a top lane problem when you made it sound more general. Take an adc mid and they'll be strong but not necessarily broken. Take a double mage kill lane bot and it might be ok but definitely not broken. Other classes don't have the massive balance problem being incapable of dealing with champions from other lanes, just fighters.

RavenKouhaiFeb 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot only considered champion-champion interactions based on expected lane-match-up or roles.

They never considered interaction outside of bot lane vs. bot lane, top lane vs. top lane, etc...so if champions from one lane goes into another Riot is suddenly as a loss for options...

It's odd how perfectly this describes a lot of champs that were/are considered op. Ryze was supposed to go mid. Went top and wrecked. Lulu was supposed to be mid/support. Went top, wrecked. Etc, etc

destiny fanFeb 23, 20153 votes

My biggest complaint is when she ults the jungler and sudently you have a 1v2 lane past 6

Athenes LuluFeb 24, 20153 votes

Counterplay doesn't exist when it comes to Rito's beloved Princess Kalista.

N3mO06Feb 24, 20152 votes

Oh man, it was terrible when I'm using renekton, I don't wonna know how it was with Trundle. Anyway they should increase tower range for ranged, so some champs can PLAY, even with a vayne, kalista, quinn, gnar in lane

SEKAIFeb 24, 20152 votes

Counterplay is a slogan, it's no longer a policy.

CockatooFeb 24, 20152 votes

I feel your pain. I recently played a match where I was Urgot against Caitlyn .

Marinaras TrenchFeb 24, 20151 votes

its called a counter pick.... yes it sucks, but its the same as laning as Zed vs. someone like Xerath not fun,

Focus TeemoFeb 24, 201513 votes

{quoted}

its called a counter pick.... yes it sucks, but its the same as laning as vs. someone like not fun,

NO it is not the same!

Xerath vs. Zed is a disadvantge Trundle vs. Kalista is suicide

You see the problem is there is no possible way for Trundle to ever actually defeat Kalista. Trundle is melee and has no hard CC, nor does he have outlandish enough mobility to keep up. Meaning there is nothing he can do about Kalista kiting him to oblivion. Xerath can defeat Zed if played properly that IS A POSSIBILITY. Trundle defeating Kalista IS NOT. See the difference? In one of these you will probably lose, in the other you will ALWAYS lose.

This is why Riot has already stated they are working on nerfing or changing Kalista's passive. It doesn't just give her little counterplay, it gives her NO counterplay at all against certain champions like Trundle Garen etc.

Kensai07Feb 24, 20155 votes

Don't rework my Trundle please! I prefer the low mobility fighter, rather than having a "new improved" skill shot on 3 abilities...

I honestly prefer they leave some of my old favorites alone.. Trundle,Taric, Mao, Nasus..

I don't enjoy hopping around and flinging skill shots everywhere... but I'm not a twitch finger plat 1 player by any means.. Mao is the closest thing to a skill shot champion I enjoy..

I figure soon, my play style will be gone - but for now i'm still holding on!

Focus TeemoFeb 24, 20152 votes

I wouldn't want him reworked either. I happen to like immobile melee champs, and Garen happens to be my favorite champion to this day. Of course i also happen to like twitch oriented skillshot types. To bad Kalista makes both of those style of champions pretty useless.

Tieria ErdeFeb 24, 20151 votes

I only main Garen and still enjoy playing when I can survive past level 12 without either team surrendering. Yes the early game has become a nightmare this season but mostly due to how hard the jungle and support role can be at the level I play. I love the fact that I can still play Garen and have fun and fear changes that would require more keyboard dexterity. How about fixing the jungle so I can get some teamwork there.

MigrañaboyFeb 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ever had to lane as top against ?

Maybe the worst experience ever.

You just needed to answer with another lane swap, seems that Kalista nor rito the ones with fault. :^)

Demented LemurFeb 24, 20151 votes

and then the other team answers with a lane swap of there own back to the drawing board

MigrañaboyFeb 25, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Demented Lemur,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YR0w9sZm,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-02-24T21:23:44.903+0000)

and then the other team answers with a lane swap of there own back to the drawing board

Seems that it worked pretty well with them, but hey, stay in the lane! :)

StephenizgodFeb 24, 20151 votes

Little secret that i learned about laning against Kalista: Use the bushes.

If you run into the bushes she cant actually dash away from you until you are right on top of her. Of course this only works early game when she doesnt have boots or only has normal boots. Also Thornmail lol infinite stack Rend on me now b*itch.

CooLTanGFeb 24, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Little secret that i learned about laning against Kalista: Use the bushes.

If you run into the bushes she cant actually dash away from you until you are right on top of her. Of course this only works early game when she doesnt have boots or only has normal boots. Also Thornmail lol infinite stack Rend on me now b*itch.

She can still jump with her spear ability.....

StephenizgodFeb 24, 20151 votes

yea once but against someone like Garen, Darius, Riven, Fiora, Gnar, etc. that one dash is going to get her no where... i guess im the only one who knows how to fight Kalista Top...

ZephyrDrakeFeb 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Little secret that i learned about laning against Kalista: Use the bushes.

If you run into the bushes she cant actually dash away from you until you are right on top of her. Of course this only works early game when she doesnt have boots or only has normal boots. Also Thornmail lol infinite stack Rend on me now b*itch.

she can still just as easily jump away from you not really wasting anything unless you have some hard cc in which case you MIGHT get a flash... and thornmail? all she needs to do is build lifesteal... which she pretty much rushes after runnan's... you must have faced really bad kalista's

StephenizgodFeb 24, 20151 votes

At low levels her Dash is nothing. With Garen if i came out of the middle bush and hit her with my Q i could kill her with my E and ignite simply because she could not dash out of my spin (if she flashed i flashed). I bought Thornmail because early game while she is rushing Ruunans it makes it impossible for her to trade with you. Late game no one can deal with Kalista, but early game she is extremely squishy and her jumps aint worth shit if you use the bush to hit her before she can start to dash away. Also Fiora is a great champion to go against Kalista, dashing does her no good, Fiora has 2 dashes, a mov speed boost, her riposte, and her ult which makes her untargetable.

I think someone is jealous because i have never had a problem with Top Kalista...

Demented LemurFeb 24, 20151 votes

Well no one would have a problem with top kalista if they picked the right champions. but the problem is that Kalista hard counters certain champions such as trundle which goes against the idea that riot hates hard counters

StephenizgodFeb 24, 20151 votes

I dont pick the right champions i just beat her with whatever champion i have... cuz she is easy until she hits late game...

TheI3igDaddyFeb 24, 20151 votes

Well if your jungler could play top lane at all, you should've begged him to switch.

Trundle's biggest flaw is that he's kitable (and what makes him balanced), and he's fighting the one chick who can kite for days? Yeah, that's torture. You should've tried to jungle with him that game.

MetalrichdogFeb 24, 20151 votes

Immobile melee vs. Cassiopeia top lane.... Shivers

FuaztinFeb 24, 20151 votes

HOly crap top lane kalista? This is a million times better than top lane quinn. I have to try this shit today.

BetaDude40Feb 24, 20153 votes

No No no no no no no.

For my sanity, PLEASE.

Go back to Quinn.

I will give you my house if you just go back to Quinn and question nothing

JunkοFeb 24, 20151 votes

How can you even lose to Kalista top lane? Her AS is shit early game and she needs to rush AS for her passive to be useful while sacrificing damage. Rush a Wardens Mail to make all AS she builds useful and also negate that 50 AD she had.

Did i mention that 2 of her skills are non existant because of the lack of soulbound?

Quinn or Vayne are WAY worse. Even Urgot top lane is worse because of his bullying potential, permaslow and damage reduction.

BlackRavenFeb 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ever had to lane as top against ?

Maybe the worst experience ever.

ever had to lane vs a gnar? how about playing a melee bruiser vs irelia? welcome to the shithole top lane is now because of cockroaches like gnar and irelia. if ur nto renekton you cant beat these champions. thanks riot!!!!!! please release another gnar, its exactly what we need!