Ad Champs in general just have better itemization...

GigglesO·Jul 22, 2017·51 votes·1,937 views

How about we do something to fix that, and then we see if adc's are still considered op?

87 Comments

KyninJul 22, 201722 votes

Instead of giving ad champions worse itemization why not give tanks and mages better? Tanks and mages seem to have so few options with so few worthwhile choices.

Devilreaper XIIIJul 22, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Admiral Walls,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YKGEULge,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-22T08:14:52.707+0000)

Instead of giving ad champions worse itemization why not give tanks and mages better? Tanks and mages seem to have so few options with so few worthwhile choices.

are you nuts ? its still tank meta, and now riot has added lethality meta to it :/ tanks are still op .-.

Evil YasuoJul 22, 20173 votes

Tanks are definitely broken, but I do agree mages should get some better gear for situations.

GigglesOJul 22, 20175 votes

The issue is only some tanks are broken. In s1-2 if you wanted to play tank, you could literally take anyone and just build tank. Now unless you are one of 5 champions, there is no point in playing tank. To top it off if you build damage, you get nuked almost instantly... so there is a whole group of champions that are left almost unplayable unless you are literally a OTP.

AirKingNeoJul 22, 201717 votes

This is not a lethality meta.

This is a "Duskblade is fucking broken" meta.

RyrynounetJul 22, 20173 votes

This is a "Opblade of Brokendarr" meta.

FIFY

chipndip1Jul 23, 20175 votes

Only in solo queue, where no one plays tanks that makes building into lethality useless by 30 minutes.

9Wly9oMl02Jul 27, 20171 votes

My top laner says, "can i jg, im not good at top". Now, I like to play top. But I said, which jg you going? He said Noc. I said, nope, you're not jg.

GigglesOJul 22, 20174 votes

I never actually suggested giving them worse itemization, I just would really like to see something actually done about itemization in general. They have had this same issue since season 1-2 when they had the meta golem build

http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/1458923_700b.jpg

Oh look damage items that also offer defense. They removed atmas for a reason, and then all they did was re-add the items in the form of black cleaver titanic and etc etc etc....

ZT XperimentorJul 22, 20173 votes

Some others they removed without a valid reason, like zephyr. Loved getting that with ninja tabi when there wasn't much magic damage to worry about.

GigglesOJul 22, 20173 votes

Oh yea, but never forget actual meaningful tank items like 1500 hp (s1) 1200 hp (s2-3) warmogs, or force of nature, the list goes on...

ZT XperimentorJul 22, 20173 votes

Indeed, though it would be nice if they brought back some meaningful choice. Like getting force of nature for boosted regeneration, or warmogs for massive health; not one item that does a little of both but neither incredibly well, as that often leads to balance problems.

Ahri Body PillowJul 22, 20175 votes

GIVE US DEATHFIRE GRASP

Arsenic SulfurJul 23, 20171 votes

Rather not have burst mages shove everyone else out again.

Ahri Body PillowJul 23, 20171 votes

In this meta of percent damage/shield stacking, I think they'll be just fine

Arsenic SulfurJul 23, 20172 votes

But what about when this meta passes over into anything else due to nerfs, direct or not. It'd feel incredibly wrong if they just deleted the item again after the meta passes. Also reintroducing it kinda leaves Luden's Echo without a job.

Ahri Body PillowJul 23, 20173 votes

Luden's echo was never really meant for assassins. Champions like Vel'Koz and Orianna will still build Luden's. Even before, assassins were pretty garbage.

Arsenic SulfurJul 23, 20171 votes

OKay, fair points.

SnowplosionJul 23, 20172 votes

It would be a Deathfire vs lethality meta and the end goal is still the same thing: one shot everything.

Cryo00Jul 22, 20175 votes

Yeah, mages need better itemization. They have like one item for every situation while ADC's have three.

5050BSJul 22, 20174 votes

By a long shot.

Asayake 5150glowJul 22, 20174 votes

{quoted}

How about we do something to fix that, and then we see if adc's are still considered op?

Sad thing is Mages are still better than Assassins whenever there isn't a broken AD item like current Duskblade or Cleaver in the past.

FilDaFunkJul 22, 20173 votes

An AP item to build out of item 3024 would be a great addition.

RyrynounetJul 22, 20173 votes

Honeslty i'd rather get some item with a lot of raw ap and one for ap assassins, i don't think my ekko want to build item 3151 to get some pene, meantime tanks are allowed to get more mr items item 3194 item 3001

AnhartaminJul 22, 20172 votes

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An Undead bratJul 22, 201711 votes

Syndra was pretty bad before MYMU for a long time tho...

CatastropJul 23, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YKGEULge,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-07-22T16:58:17.038+0000)

Syndra was pretty bad before MYMU for a long time tho...

And she's bad now too.

AnhartaminJul 23, 20172 votes

[deleted]

LightIsMyPathJul 23, 20173 votes

47% winrate really OP

AnhartaminJul 23, 20171 votes

[deleted]

yoshi2790Jul 23, 20172 votes

but 98% pick/banrate just stop talking.

GigglesOJul 22, 20173 votes

It isn't just about buffing itemization, its about allowing a larger variety to give them the same playing field. Its like playing DnD at level 20. While the warrior is still swinging his sword, mages are playing with rockets and hand grenades.

WoonStruckJul 23, 20174 votes

Real talk, fuck casters in D&D.

Resistant to late game threats, which are primarily mind-affecting.

More utility than anyone else.

Invalidates rogue's skillchecks with specific spells for any situation.

More AoE+damage than anyone else.

Basically no cost has to be put towards gear.

Landing spells isn't an issue in the large majority of cases, unlike attacks.

Positioning literally doesn't matter at all. Just have line of sight and you're golden.

DR NEEDLEDlCKJul 22, 20172 votes

It's simple, nerf Orianna and Syndra while buffing some mage items! Or nerf overbearing ones like Morellonomicon.

The LexerJul 22, 20176 votes

And while we're at it, lets nerf lethality so adc's aren't all building duskblade, then buff some of the assassins that need it (Talon, Zed),

I mean, lethality was made for assassins, and since duskblade has become popular, I have actually seen more ADCs mid lane than Zed. I actually saw a Duskblade Graves mid once... yet I still don't see assassins

El Sexo GoatoJul 23, 20172 votes

Maybe adding a tier of items that provide relatively little ap (40 to 60), but more in terms of defense or utility. My only issue is that I don't want to see mages building 5 defense focused items and still one shotting people. I've had enough tank ekko for my lifetime. I don't need tank ekko with 400-500 AP riding my ass. And maybe adding another 100 ap item that is just AP and some defense stats.

GrReaper96Jul 23, 20174 votes

item 3170 is a pretty good start tbh

CatastropJul 23, 20172 votes

Riot could have fixed this in the MYMU, instead they added a bunch of niche items and reworked a handful.

Compared to the Marksman update, where basically all their items got repurposed/buffed, ap itemization updates we got was a bad joke.

AD champs onlyJul 23, 20172 votes

Hey , someone called me ?

Mecha IncognitoJul 23, 20172 votes

Wait this is a little off. I'm sure it's not ADC items that are causing problems (except deaths dance), but rather the fact that they can use assassin items without any real punishment.

Leaf on BushJul 24, 20172 votes

What is the point of this thread? AD is used for auto attacks as well as scaling for spells, obviously there is a bigger item pool.

GigglesOJul 24, 20173 votes

Because non-Ad champions can't get what they need to play properly...

Leaf on BushJul 24, 20172 votes

I don't see you making suggestions for new AP items. Looks more like a "the grass is greener on the other side" kind of comment. And as sparse as your original post is I wonder how you are even getting upvoted, this is spam level. There is no actual substance.

GigglesOJul 25, 20171 votes

or the minimalist post design was to allow people to comment more freely. It fosters discussion when you don't try and force people to do something a certain way. I feel like thats why you see a lot of s1-s2 players make posts that they are leaving the game because it is a different game.

I remember being able to build any champ any way you wanted in s1. s2 rolled around and they removed itemization options. In fact they have even removed ad itemization options. The issues were that they never allowed all of the classes access to the same stat benefits or slot efficiency. Look at dodge. You had the highest dodge stat on phantom dancer... so it was the squishy adc's that had the best chance of survival due to auto attacks from a tank. I do also remember doing 100% dodge builds... people would even stack 4 phantom dancers on rammus for the dodge stat alone.

So then what happens, in my opinion, is that you have to make champions specifically more powerful, or nerf them, because of access to itemization. If you can't access those stats through items you can never be viable without innately having them. Thus the "tanks are op" is (somewhat) true because without items they are inherently stronger. However, that also creates a balance issue because then when itemization does favor tanks they go over the top. Otherwise they are always underwhelming to play.

Leaf on BushJul 25, 20171 votes

the minimalist post design was to allow people to comment more freely.

Ok that's just hilarious.

But anyway you still didn't tell what you think AP champions need to play properly, also is it even true that AP champions can't play properly? Do you have some kind of proof for that?

And then i already told you why there have to be more item options that are focused on AD/attack speed/crit, but you kinda ignored that.

GigglesOJul 26, 20172 votes

It doesn't take alot of thought to see that when you want an ad item that grants lifesteal you have item 3153 item 3812 item 3146 item 3156 item 3139 item 3074 item 3072

Health gain on spell cast item 3027 item 3001 item 3030

Hybrid item 3146

You want to gain hp on a tank... item 3065 item 3083 Good luck getting out of combat (since most champs die too quickly to get out), and base hp regen is a joke of a stat on items lets be real 10hp/5 *900% is still trash hp regen.

Then if you want to talk about things like armor pen you have item 3147 item 3814 item 3036 item 3033 item 3071 item 3142

Mage: item 3020 item 3135 item 3151

You can see from these comparisons that there is just a clear lack of variety of how you can build as an ap. Its the cookie cutter effect were you have almost every ap building identical to the next.

Leaf on BushJul 26, 20171 votes

You are never gonna relate to what I said are you? Well, ok. Just do your arbitrary list of items then, but leave me alone. And no i can't see a comparison, just you jumping to your desired conclusion but not taking the time to explain it.

GigglesOJul 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=D Kayn goes BOOM,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YKGEULge,comment-id=0016000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-26T09:28:50.552+0000)

You are never gonna relate to what I said are you?

Well its pretty obviously stated earlier... to answer your question, they need more itemization... either that or you didn't state clearly enough what I am supposed to "relate to"

How about a black cleaver for ap's? What about actual in combat sustain for tanks? How about we get rylis to be the equivalent of frozen mallet? Why don't we get multiple pen items? How about something like duskblade? GA? Mercurial scimitar? A lot of options are only offered to the ad class. How about all of the tank items also get 10% cdr tacked on for no apparent reason?

Just because you can't state clearly why you are upset with the notion that ad's have better itemization without providing a clear argument why they "don't" have better access doesn't mean that I'm wrong in what I'm saying.

Leaf on BushJul 26, 20171 votes

Void Staff is your instant cleaver. Armor pen on boots, that would be nice. Rylais works on spell, it's cheaper and spells are often AoE and/or damage over time. Duskblade... an item that gives your core stat and bonus damage for more burst? What about Ludens Echo? What about Lichbane? GA/ Merc Scim, life as mage is a lot less dangerous than life as an ADC, mages are often able to peel for themselves or they just poke, ADC's have to dps consistently and then you still have zhonya's and banshee's.

I don't know why I need to tell you all those things you probably know already. Just learn to see both sides.

GigglesOJul 27, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=D Kayn goes BOOM,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YKGEULge,comment-id=001600000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-26T10:29:53.585+0000)

Void Staff is your instant cleaver.

So what about cleaver + last wisperor

Armor pen on boots, that would be nice.

Except that it doesn't replace all the other armor pen items

Rylais works on spell, it's cheaper and spells are often AoE and/or damage over time.

Sure its cheaper, but it isn't slot efficient, and it sure doesn't pack a 40% slow like aa's.

Duskblade... an item that gives your core stat and bonus damage for more burst? What about Ludens Echo? What about Lichbane?

Triforce=lichbane but with more stats. Ludens echo is comparable to static shiv... so where is my duskblade item?

GA/ Merc Scim, life as mage is a lot less dangerous than life as an ADC, mages are often able to peel for themselves or they just poke, ADC's have to dps consistently and then you still have zhonya's and banshee's.

REally? So you are telling me that no adc's have cc, and that mobility isn't a factor, since most mages are slow?