WARNING: Monster post contained within @*AnyRed*

BetweenSkill··150 votes·15,545 views

NEW THANK YOU THREAD: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/gaqH4Jyv-thank-you-riot-repertoir

EDIT: Riot I was using those examples as examples. I'm not using this post to bash you about that. I just want to know why our connection with you guys has gotten smaller and smaller with good points from entire fanbases being ignored. I've made three posts about this, on three different accounts, and each time it's reached the top of the boards, but not one response from you guys (Even when I see Meddler responding to other posts at the same time).

Edit 2: I apologize for my non-productive tone when addressing some of the Red's directly. I got caught up in this post and overlooked them when rereading this monstrosity I've created. And so I've now become one of the toxic assholes here I hate, just by simply not thinking about how I was talking. Sorry Rito :/

I'm no longer addressing my complaint as player to developer. Person to person. _** Andrei "Meddler" van Roon, Hi my name is Aidan and I'm a freshman in college who has spent the past 4-5 years of his life loving this game and putting close to 8000 total games across all accounts (i just recounted). I'm in a Game Design & Development program and I love discussing the finer aspects of game design and game theory. I also love fishing and rugby. This game inspired me to become a developer, to create a game as good maybe even better than this (that would be nigh impossible).

I am a person, and so is everyone else on here. So are you. Except Canustus. He's a sneky snek. Don't ignore 98% of us. We want to be heard because we care, because we are people like you. We don't want essays to every single post made, but Red Responses being the exception specifically on Gameplay boards is a bit insulting which is why many people inappropriately turn to toxicity and venom. We just want to talk.

Months ago I made a post about communication between the Gameplay/balance/update team and the boards, and more specifically, the profound lack of it.

The recent post about listening to player feedback about updates (regarding the visual changes to Fiora) came across to a lot of people I know as basically a giant slap in the face. Not only did Riot state that they listened and cared about player feedback and how they FEEL about a champion, but they are stated how they learned a lot from it and how they respect player opinion highly. That if it didn't feel like a huge gain to the game/champion etc as a whole then it was a failed update.

The story and lore team basically butchered what many original players loved about League's unique backstory and setting and have basically given almost nothing back. So many champions are left with a few sentences of "lore" (I hesitate to call it that, it's a sad excuse for it) and I have not found a single person who isn't confused/upset about it.

HOWEVER, I still see the art team and story/lore team responding relatively frequently to the boards, About half of the posts in Red Tracker usually show up in that board (for me at least). People at least feel they are being acknowledged there.

The rare few times I see a Red respond in a Gameplay and Balance discussion is to pop in and make a funny joke or agree with someone's funny anecdotal but so rarely among the rare responses are they to a post actually discussing GAMEPLAY AND BALANCE.

Months ago I was one of a few people that made fairly noticeable posts about this exact topic, and Rioter's posts increased dramatically (from almost nothing to at least 1/5 of the discussions posted which is fairly reasonable). They were simple or they were detailed responses, but they made us feel heard. Yeah, the boards population is smaller than the entire game population, but most of the people who post and frequent the boards are here because they are the extremely passionate ones who want to see this game continue to be the (most of the time) amazing ride it has been for a long time to come.

But after a week or two the Red posts died down, and now they are even less than they were before that. And now I'm more pissed, and less understanding than I was before.

If Riot cares about player feedback and how updates feel to the players then I have some questions that I hope will actually warrant responses.

Riot Repertoir (mispelled sorry): Why is Kog'Maw still been basically shafted? Put his W on his passive like you did with Graves' autos, and make his W a unique steroid (like make his attacks unblockable or ramping damage like MF's used to be). His damage is way too low for someone who has an incredible amount of risk and reliance on his team to output any of it.

Riot Stashu: What the hell happened to Cassiopeia? We were promised updates on her and on the progress of the updates and nothing. Who she was as a champion was demolished lore-wise and gameplay-wise, and now after all her nerfs her gameplay pattern is just downright unfun for everyone involved and boring and just plain bad.

Riot CertainlyT: I know you get a lot of hate on these boards, most of it unjustified. You make really cool champions, and unique kits. Some may be unfun to play against and sometimes feel unfair, but for the most part they are relatively balanced. WHAT THE HELL happened with Mordekaiser's update? I did not see ONE post supporting Mordekaiser's rework, not ONE. EVERYONE said it would be either terribly trashy or terribly toxic. And look what happened. Mordekaiser mains have either quit or downright are miserable, his solo lane is detroyed. Old Lore: stomps across the land unstoppable and unkillable by himself, not with a frigging support. He is the definition of feast or famine, and is incredibly more toxic for everyone to play since his rework than before. i have not seen this much universal hate for a rework, well, ever. Even Karma's/Cass' reowork had less hate spewed back at Riot

Marksmen update: ADC's now all build the exact same items. diversity is WORSE than before the itemization changes. It's nothing but crit on everything and I have not seen a single phantom dancer in any game I have played. Maybe I missed one, or it danced out of sight. What used to be the quintessential ADC damage amplifying item is now virtually gone.

AD Assassin item: Really? AP mages and even assassins are hugely nerfed because of how much more AP items cost now relative to AD casters/assassins, and you're giving AD assassins yet another way to deal even more damage earlier? I don't think even Anivia will work against Zed now lol.

This is everything I've seen. From my point of view and from other's. Do you see how much hate there is? I've played this game since it first came out, and I truly have never seen a preseason more dysfunctional than this. More counter-productive to what players are asking for than this. it hasn't lasted this long with the same issues being ignored or changed FURTHER away from players want.

You value player feedback? You dare say that an update has failed if it doesn't feel like a large gain and then continue to spit in our faces? I've supported Rioters, I've helped pay your paychecks and I've helped defend you guys when everyone is raging and calling you guys "stupid pieces of shit". You aren't stupid pieces of shit, but you are acting more and more arrogantly.

We just want to be heard. We want to be listened to like you like to make a big deal about how you do. Respond to us, give us feedback. Tell us how our ideas are stupid or bad (cause most of them are). But stop ignoring us.

When Jagex ignored its large playerbase (yet again) and went ahead with a big update (EOC) because they wanted to, look what happened. Their damage control was literally going back in time 7 YEARS to avoid losing more than half their players.

I want to be told that my ideas are bad, why they are wrong, what you guys are planning on doing. It takes 30 seconds-15 minutes to make a decent informed post (probably even shorter for you guys, you have all the information at your fingertips). That's almost nothing, even in the middle of a workday. Because it should be part of your work. It IS part of your job.

Yeah the boards are a toxic place, but you're being paid from OUR wallet's to keep this game running. And when you show up and start posting, almost all of the toxicity evaporates quickly because it's mostly the build up of months of being ignored.

And if you come on to these boards and make a post, and it gets overwhelmingly downvoted and/or there's a huge outcry, maybe there's something wrong with what you are proposing. From your own words, if player's don't feel like they are gaining something big, the change is a failure.

"Now that the new year is upon us, we’ll be pushing for more communication and transparency in the coming months." Give us some basic interaction and that will be Leagues above what we are receiving now.

TL;DR:

I've seen companies start acting like this towards their customer's, and I've watched every single one of their games wither and die when they refused to change directions. I want this game to succeed like any of us, Red or player alike. But this is a partnership of trust between the two groups, and right now we feel like we are being cheated. If you want us to be happy and enjoy these changes, then listen to our feedback and/or at least give us shoutouts to know we are being heard.

Rather than upvoting or downvoting, I want to hear what you guys think!

Thank you.

317 Comments

Pasta Help Desk98 votes

Riot has read your comment and asked me to relay this message.

Patch 6.0 Zed and Lee Sin are getting buffs. Swain and Karthus are getting nerfed again and we found another bug in Azirs kit so we fixed that as well. Talk to you again in 6 months.

BetweenSkill29 votes

Dang least it's something right? If I buy another Chroma will Phreak at least drop by to leave me a pun?

Pasta Help Desk46 votes

He said he was busy and didn't want to Phreak you out with his punny skills!

BetweenSkill32 votes

I needed that

RottedApples15 votes

i find it strange that a sandwich and pasta are having a conversation.

can i join? i'm food too.

BetweenSkill18 votes

No, this is carbohydrates only

BetaDude4013 votes

Wow, that's foodist

Just because he's in a different food family, that automatically makes him ineligible to join in the conversation?

BetweenSkill15 votes

Yeah, dirty fruit scum

RottedApples13 votes

it's probably cause i'm rotten. the sugar in an apple just isn't there anymore

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

Dank Sloth2 votes

Good thing there is no “patch 6.0“

BetweenSkill18 votes

It'd be interesting what champion would get fucked on 6.9

RiotRiotRepertoir53 votes

Riot Repertoir (mispelled sorry): Why is Kog'Maw still been basically shafted?

It can be difficult to have meaningful conversation with people when their opening statements toward you are immediately negative, accusatory, or passive aggressive. I go in and out of spending a good amount of time on Boards when I'm not crunching hard on projects (as I am currently with Taric and immobile mages), but even when I'm looking for meaningful conversation to have, a large number of threads are quickly filtered because they come off as hostile. I personally am not looking for sugar coated questions, but I do think a topic like "Hey RiotRepertoir, Kog'Maw seems to be performing poorly in xyz category. What are your plans with Kog'Maw moving forward?" probably has a more meaningful conversation behind it than "Why is Kog'Maw still basically shafted?" The latter is pretty passive aggressive and doesn't really even begin to describe the conversation you want to have about Kog'Maw. Questions like these usually just come off as someone being angry and not actually seeking discussion.

I'm off to work. I can try to pop back later if I get a few minutes.

slippykitten15 votes

{quoted}

It can be difficult to have meaningful conversation with people when their opening statements toward you are immediately negative, accusatory, or passive aggressive. I go in and out of spending a good amount of time on Boards when I'm not crunching hard on projects (as I am currently with Taric and immobile mages), but even when I'm looking for meaningful conversation to have, a large number of threads are quickly filtered because they come off as hostile. I personally am not looking for sugar coated questions, but I do think a topic like "Hey RiotRepertoir, Kog'Maw seems to be performing poorly in xyz category. What are your plans with Kog'Maw moving forward?" probably has a more meaningful conversation behind it than "Why is Kog'Maw still basically shafted?" The latter is pretty passive aggressive and doesn't really even begin to describe the conversation you want to have about Kog'Maw. Questions like these usually just come off as someone being angry and not actually seeking discussion.

I'm off to work. I can try to pop back later if I get a few minutes.

As a company, Riot get's to dictate the conversations it has, that's for sure. In one sense, you guys have the power to communicate on your terms. However, your response, which illustrates a mindset riot has, seems to forget one thing about business - "the customer is always right"

That phrase doesn't mean that the customer is actually always right, it means that if you're in a business who's paycheck gets written because a customer purchased a product or service, then you better treat them like their opinions are valuable. If I walk into a retail store angry about a defective product, they don't say "Your comments seem passive aggressive sir, I think I'm just going to walk away and not deal with you". That would be unheard of and asinine, because that isn't how you treat a customer.

Riot, and judging from your comment you as well, simply doesn't understand this. Sometimes customers are going to be passionate or upset about a product or service that you messed up, and if you want people to continue being customers, you should address their concerns anyway politely. You have the right to treat your customers like they are beneath you having to speak to their concerns, but don't be surprised if your customers hate you in return, or take their business elsewhere. You guys might be so cocky that you think you can treat your customers however you want and they will keep playing, but remember that with great pride comes a great fall.

Before you say "but league is free!" to justify you treating customers like they are beneficiaries of charity, lets all put the cards on the table. League is free as a business model, not as a charity. League chose to be ftp with microtransactions as a means to make money, not to be charitable, and they have made a butt load of money doing it. These players are who pay your salary, regardless of your companies business model, don't ever forget that.

You probably won't read this, but if you do, understand that it's time to start treating the players like they matter to you instead of acting like you are doing them a favor by having a game.

BetweenSkill6 votes

let's not jump on the I hate Rito bandwagon, that wasn't my intent with this post. My tone there was unjustifiably rude, and I've acknowledged that.

RiotRepertoir is one of the few that have routinely made an effort to be on this board, so let's not start trashing him. My bad.

slippykitten7 votes

[{quoted}](name=HIMM Sandwich,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y4sgQ4zT,comment-id=003000050000,timestamp=2016-01-07T19:04:28.063+0000)

let's not jump on the I hate Rito bandwagon, that wasn't my intent with this post. My tone there was unjustifiably rude, and I've acknowledged that.

RiotRepertoir is one of the few that have routinely made an effort to be on this board, so let's not start trashing him. My bad.

It was an attitude of "You're lucky if i respond because i dont have to talk to you at all" that i wanted to address. RiotRepertoir is one of the best, if not the best, that I've seen on the boards. That doesn't mean Riots attitude towards its customers hasn't conformed him as well though. It was an attitude that was perfectly illustrated by his response, and it needed to be addressed. No hate for him, or any other employee of Riot, just the truth of business.

RiotRiotRepertoir27 votes

I agree with the "customer is always right" sentiment, but generally I'd say that my decisions about which posts I respond to are the ones where I personally can provide the biggest value to players in a way that involves meaningful discussion, since having a meaningful discussion takes a fair amount of time.

Maybe we should have people on Boards hired specifically to put out fires on a regular basis or specifically addressing complaints, but most (if not all) of the Reds you find here aren't exactly retail salespersons trying to placate angry customers. When players are angry, I think we have a good sense of that (Boards helps with this), but popping into a bunch of threads and saying "we understand you are upset" doesn't really seem to be an efficient way to begin fixing problems. On many issues, it's a matter of first understanding the issue that exists, and then figuring out and implementing a way to fix it, and that part can take a lot of time that I think is incredibly frustrating to both players and developers.

Retillin16 votes

How much time does Riot need to understand that the Morde push to bottom was a mistake? Or that Cass "rework" was not successful? Or that the new Masteries are just extra power that mean all champions need to be balanced around them instead of "cool new add ons"?

The "Friora" story about how Riot didn't understand the player base was a perfect example of this all. Riot doesn't take feed back. They may say "oh the players are upset", but they don't understand/acknowledge where the players are right or why they are upset.

Xonra7 votes

{quoted}

I agree with the "customer is always right" sentiment, but generally I'd say that my decisions about which posts I respond to are the ones where I personally can provide the biggest value to players in a way that involves meaningful discussion, since having a meaningful discussion takes a fair amount of time.

Maybe we should have people on Boards hired specifically to put out fires on a regular basis or specifically addressing complaints, but most (if not all) of the Reds you find here aren't exactly retail salespersons trying to placate angry customers. When players are angry, I think we have a good sense of that (Boards helps with this), but popping into a bunch of threads and saying "we understand you are upset" doesn't really seem to be an efficient way to begin fixing problems. On many issues, it's a matter of first understanding the issue that exists, and then figuring out and implementing a way to fix it, and that part can take a lot of time that I think is incredibly frustrating to both players and developers.

You still aren't actually addressing any of the issues brought up. We understand you don't like us being upset, but we just want you guys to understand why we are upset, and address that specifically. There was a great opportunity for discussion within that state of the league thread/announcement...thing, that seemed to be Riot patting itself on the back (sorry to word it that way, but it was a "we feel we did good" when that sentiment isn't shared as widely as you might believe). There were plenty of concerns brought up there in less...aggressive manners and still no real responses there.

Why are you guys at Riot so afraid to have someone tell you that you are wrong or something isn't working? If that isn't the case, then good (though the actions and sometimes lack thereof paint a different picture), but we've never been shown anything different. The outright refusal to revert bad reworks/nerfs/buffs (outside of small outlier cases if we can both be honest), going quiet after quite a few not very good reworks, but only ever addressing that by saying how you feel x,y, and z were good, but not commenting on the frustrations brought up by ignoring Cass for example (coming back to her in 6 months, I'm sorry to say, isn't actually addressing the now long standing issue).

I've been around for nearly 6 years, and active for almost all 6, and I am losing faith in Riot in large chunks every 3 months it feels. I just want to be able to talk to my friends about this game again (even the ones playing it) without feeling like I should defend it to them because of all the randomness that goes on, or just flat out act like I don't play it sometimes so I won't have people mock me. I love this game, but I really don't like how it is run anymore, and that makes me pretty bummed. At some point you guys over at Riot gotta remember, you guys run and make the game, but we are here too, and should be just as big a part of it, not boxed out and ignored unless we show up with flowers kissing your feet from start to finish of a post (or more so, on Reddit, because as we all said when this board was created, Reddit is where most of the discussion is had and longer responses given, despite it being Reddit, and not your own forums <_< but just beating a dead horse on that one).

Xonra11 votes

This is an understandable excuse, but an excuse nonetheless. If the other threads were responded to it would be one thing, but even the positive threads are disregarded.

People get tired of asking and frustrated from being ignored and it turns to what you see as hostile. It is the hostile threads people latch onto as they feel similar frustrations and they garner more attention.

You may not like the angry posts, but when the nuetral ones are ignored just as much, then this is what you are left with. You have no one to blame but yourselves and you've created a big circle of frustration that you refuse to even attempt to placate anymore. Then you ahow up with nothing but a response saying you dont like responding to these threads; then why respond? Only further frustrates people with that kind of response.

Nagoh Shan20 votes

The problem I have, and I think is shared by many other people, is that it's never given us real meaningful conversation. My biggest frustration with this game is the champion updates. There is zero consideration for what already exists when something is updated. When you guys mess up, you say how sorry you are and how much you learned (I.E Fiora, Trundle, Karma, Cass) then keep doing the exact same thing, because there's a refusal to consider the merits of what already exists and player investment to what exists when changing it.

I literally dread reworks despite having loved the Sion rework (at first before repeated changes) and the mechanical side of the Fiora rework.

When Cass was reworked, Stashu communicated and talked and posted, then buffed her into massive OPness. When people took to her he disappeared then nerfed her to a point where she's still mechanically frustrating and dramatically underpowered.

When Morde was reworked, zero communication was had, regardless of the method used to try and start conversation. It ended terribly, and there's still no communication. All we've heard is that there's basically a "**** it" approach being taken to Morde.

Sona's was a rework that changed a playstyle that riot didn't like but admitted wasn't unbalanced, despite the fact that players enjoyed using her, and turned her into and unbalanceable nightmare that can never be allowed to be strong. Ever. And no type of discussion has ever led anywhere regarding her place since the rework.

It definitely feels like being nice nothing happens, being mean or passive aggressive nothing happens, but when we're not nice we can at least blow off some steam.

LF Annie9 votes

they've already ran through 6/10 of my favorite champs with reworks, and my exp with the game hasn't gotten better for it.

Mr Vulcanator7 votes

{quoted}

It can be difficult to have meaningful conversation with people when their opening statements toward you are immediately negative, accusatory, or passive aggressive. I go in and out of spending a good amount of time on Boards when I'm not crunching hard on projects (as I am currently with Taric and immobile mages), but even when I'm looking for meaningful conversation to have, a large number of threads are quickly filtered because they come off as hostile. I personally am not looking for sugar coated questions, but I do think a topic like "Hey RiotRepertoir, Kog'Maw seems to be performing poorly in xyz category. What are your plans with Kog'Maw moving forward?" probably has a more meaningful conversation behind it than "Why is Kog'Maw still basically shafted?" The latter is pretty passive aggressive and doesn't really even begin to describe the conversation you want to have about Kog'Maw. Questions like these usually just come off as someone being angry and not actually seeking discussion.

I'm off to work. I can try to pop back later if I get a few minutes.

I understand frustration about the community not saying things in the nicest way, but you still need to listen to your customers and respond and in some cases actually do something instead of "we'll rework them in about 5 months". You wasted an opportunity to go past the OP's phrasing and have the meaningful conversation you seek.

RiotRiotRepertoir8 votes

I'm not too worried about people being nice, really. It's players' right to be upset and let us know.

Kysteria4 votes

{quoted}

It can be difficult to have meaningful conversation with people when their opening statements toward you are immediately negative, accusatory, or passive aggressive. I go in and out of spending a good amount of time on Boards when I'm not crunching hard on projects (as I am currently with Taric and immobile mages), but even when I'm looking for meaningful conversation to have, a large number of threads are quickly filtered because they come off as hostile. I personally am not looking for sugar coated questions, but I do think a topic like "Hey RiotRepertoir, Kog'Maw seems to be performing poorly in xyz category. What are your plans with Kog'Maw moving forward?" probably has a more meaningful conversation behind it than "Why is Kog'Maw still basically shafted?" The latter is pretty passive aggressive and doesn't really even begin to describe the conversation you want to have about Kog'Maw. Questions like these usually just come off as someone being angry and not actually seeking discussion.

I'm off to work. I can try to pop back later if I get a few minutes.

I can understand not wanting to speak in a hostile environment, but a big issue also stems from no Rioters really responding to forum posts that are just legitimately trying to ask what went wrong, what is going on, or what your mindset was for certain choices. However, whether they were being outright aggressive, passive-aggressive, or just downright polite it is extremely hard to find answers given anywhere.

Even if you find yourself unwilling to answer him/her particularly, why not answer some of those individuals posting in the thread who look for the same answers? We love these champs, these stories, and this game. I just implore more Rioters to say anything because being kept in the dark really sucks.

Vistha Kai5 votes

So that's the excuse? "Just because some threads are less than positive I will post once in a blue moon if ever."

Does it look better if a question is polite? Yes, of course. Does it mean you should only ever read and respond to those polite questions? Hell no.

I believe Rioters said in the past that even people who seem angry should be heard, because that anger is a sign we care. I'm also sure that it was said lack of communication on your part causes way more harm than improper communication on our part.

People are negative, because they feel they aren't being heard. That's a normal human response. And frankly, they are not.

One time you listened to the community was Skarner re-re-rework. Obviously that particular feedback failed. Can happen to anybody. The question is, "Why you completely decided to ignore community because of one mistake?".

To be honest, I don't play this game anymore. Servers in EUNE are utter garbage - You asked to not behave like that. Sadly, but it can only be worded more vulgarly. Having 25-50% packet loss every 10 seconds on the last hop before the server is... a great feeling. - and most game changes completely miss the mark (There is only so much fun from matches that are decided in 10 minutes). Regardless, I still frequent Boards daily and I always check threads with the white fist icon next to them.

How I wish at least one of them a week was about actual balancing issues that plague League of Legends since late Season 5 and especially this joke of a pre-season.

Nope, the best you can hope to write are complaints about how we word thread titles.

Am I passive-aggressive or whatever reason you make up? Yes. Most likely yes. This game brought anger to my heart, I could've never believed I was capable of.

Regardless, I still have respect for a bunch of Rioters - Exgeniar, Meddler to name a few, while others - Hi, Lyte - are doing their best to be the opposite.

I feel like this comment is all over the place, let's put it like this:


TL;DR


If you want things to change, be the change. Be true to your words and promises and people will behave just as you'd want them to (That is: neutral-positive).

Don't shy from taking on seemingly hard issues, just because you think of yourself as a delicate flower. Not doing so will get you nothing, but dislike from people.


Dis lookz way bigger than I imagined it will.

Rhodaan10 votes

Here, you again just deflected giving a legitimate answer, or insight with saying that "being passive aggressive and negative doesn't facilitate healthy discussions". The problems are:

  1. You only respond to serious questions like this if people are essentially throwing them into your face directly, just how OP did.

  2. The part when OP stated that Riot became more arrogant is a sad thing, but has it's foundation. It's interesing that EXACTLY you came here first, because you are the only one I can clearly recall having one of those moments. It was in the Quinn PBE feedback thread, back like 2 months ago. I'll paste the relevant part:

"To all the players upset that they cannot turn into Valor and fight anymore, I am sorry that that was so important to you as far as playing the champion goes, but that aspect of these changes is just not going to change. Truly, I'm very sorry if that ruins the champion for you, but I'd prefer to be forthcoming about the fact that it's not going to change than leave you hanging waiting for an answer forever. I hope you can find enjoyment eventually in this new version of the champion, or that there is another champion out there that can give you a similar feeling to the previous version of Quinn, but if not, I understand."

This was something I could instantly recall when I've read this accusation of you guys becoming arrogant. You basically said here that "We will go through with the changes, like it or not. Deal with it.".

You guys have to realize that people love your game, which you are responsible for! You personally are at an especially delicate position considering that you have the really tough task of CHANGING existing things into something (hopefully) better. People get attached to certain things, if you change something significant, people will ask questions why you do that and want real answers. I would if the champ I had several hundred games with suddenly gets changed into something else.

Players want you to change things to get better and they want to help. Or at least want answers. The sincere thing they want here is that you guys make good adjustments/reworks for the "Immobile Mages" project. You were not really listening to the community at the previous 2 updates, despite that there were clear warnings that some of your ideas will not fare good. Later, you guys admitted to those mistakes, but would be much better if in the future, those mistakes would never happen in the first place, IMO. We really respect what you guys are doing, please don't be ignorant. You guys and the community are on the same side.

RiotRiotRepertoir11 votes

This was something I could instantly recall when I've read this accusation of you guys becoming arrogant. You basically said here that "We will go through with the changes, like it or not. Deal with it.".

I also took an extra patch to make significant changes to Quinn's Passive and Q in response to player feedback. A bunch of people got upset about that update I made to Quinn's PBE thread before she released, but I do think in that case being honest and direct with players about what could and could not be changed was the right call. Players want lots of things, and rightfully so. They care about the game and want it to be the best experience possible, as do we. It's nice to be able to pivot and change according to feedback, but it's not going to be the case that feedback results in change. It's a case-by-case thing.

BetweenSkill6 votes

I think the issue he's having is with the fact that there was no explanation as to why it would not be changed back. It seemed akin to a parent saying to their child "It is because I said it's so, so accept it."

At least that's how it seems to come across without any explanation to go along with it.

Vekkna6 votes

The point here is that the bile starts spewing after the good, rational posts are ignored for so long. I can't tell you how many long, excellent Cass posts there have been, but I can tell you how many of them got substantive dev engagement about her state: zero. Red posts about the state of Zyra since her "huge buff" AI tweaks still not following target priorities as stated by a dev: zero.

In general, I feel there's a lack of explanation about problems or balance decisions that feel obviously incorrect to us. For example, it was not hard for players to see that Teemo was being dumpstered, but Riot claimed to be buffing him. That played out exactly as players expected, and there was no follow-up engagement about it at all. Thankfully we at least got reverts on most of the nerfs.

Zyra's plant AI debugging was sold to us as a buff so big it would need to be monitored; a buff so big that buffing the ult knockup after a 2 second delay from 1 second to 1.5 seconds could compromise game balance. Despite many calm, well-reasoned posts requesting clarification and follow-up about the plant behavior (some even my own), all we got was radio silence.

Right now it feels obvious that AP items are too expensive, CDR choices are lacking, and mana regen is too slow for the current pace of the game. There's practically a consensus on this, which is why you're seeing FQC artificially inflating the status of several mages. So when those problems feel obvious to players, it's baffling to see an item in the works for AD assassins who are already thriving or even oppressive.

When I look at my own post history, it's like a chronology of a player's transition from a thoughtful contributor into a bitter, toxic fuck. I think that's a natural byproduct of having champs nerfed out from under you for no reason (see: Teemo, Katarina). Part of it, however, is that the Riot silence is interpreted as complete indifference to the issues, regardless of how patient, rational, frequent, and documented a QQ post may be.

Keevalroy35 votes

Riot CertainlyT: I know you get a lot of hate on these boards, most of it unjustified.

Okay, I was agreeing with everything up until this point. The hostility is completely justified, and for the sake of not continuing to be a broken record, I'll just say I very much disagree with the idea that he's improving the game in any way, shape, or form.

Some may be unfun to play against and sometimes feel unfair,

How about all of them?

When Jagex ignored its large playerbase (yet again) and went ahead with a big update (EOC) because they wanted to, look what happened. Their damage control was literally going back in time 7 YEARS to avoid losing more than half their players.

Blizzard did the same thing when they were developing Cataclysm, in my opinion the worst thing they have ever injected into WoW, and ended up being a terminal disease that began "the end" of their masterpiece. This, what we have right now in League, is Riot's Cataclysm. They need to be extremely careful right now and do what Blizzard never did and actually pay attention to the playerbase that built them up. WoW got too big too fast and Blizz was too busy jacking off to their success that they ignored the community that built them up. I implore you not to follow their example.

"Now that the new year is upon us, we’ll be pushing for more communication and transparency in the coming months."

The thing is, we've seen this before, almost word for word verbatim...multiple times. Funny how nothing changes in the long run. These posts and false promises mean absolutely nothing to me at this point. We'll probably get two or three PR driven Q&A posts that answer nothing of value before the devs go back into hiding on Reddit.

There's also more things that you missed,

How about the minion pushing? We hear you guys don't like snowbally games, so we have a system for minions to push faster when you're ahead so you can capitalize on your lead. There were some difficulties with fitting it into the patch so we delayed it, and while you complain about the hopelessness of being behind, we're confident that shoving this change through anyway is the best decision because fuck you. If you want to be ahead and have the stronger minions on your side, git gud lololol.

Or the mastery system...why? Why did a healthy and balanced system need an update like this? This was by no means an improvement. It's not just that they're cookie cutter, in fact, the masteries are the sole reason certain champions were nerfed when they were otherwise completely fine, some of whom (Karthus for example) were healthy and balanced before AND after the mastery update. Then there's champions like Zed, who were annoying, but balanced...the mastery update came, "wow he's strong, let's buff him and introduce AD DFG," and now we wait for the eventual "we've noticed how strong Zed is with the new item. our bad guys - who could have seen this coming?"

We see it coming. You know what else we saw? This disaster of a preseason that you thought was going to be fun for everyone. We shouted from the rooftops what would be broken on launch, and you ignored EVERYHTING. It was only until weeks after that it finally registered with you that there are a lot of problems in the game with this update, but what still hasn't, and judging from your preseason update post probably never will, is that this direction you want to take League in will be a monumental failure in the long run.

Keep ignoring feedback, dismissing criticism, and lying through your teeth when you explain controversial changes while contradicting yourselves, and patting yourselves on the back for the great job you believe you're doing, Blizzard. I'm sure history won't repeat itself.

Awkward Couch1 votes

Can I ask why you have a gripe with Riot CertainlyT? I do not know why people hate him. I mean I can understand why people don't like Meddler or Lyte but I don't know about CertainlyT.

BetweenSkill7 votes

Because he has a history of making overloaded kits that are extremely fun to play as, and extremely unfun to play against and then ignoring all negative feedback.

If he took player feedback more seriously, or at least showed it if he does, and/or if his champions were toned down to Zyra-levels of design (which was interesting, unique and new without being toxic to play against, his best design imo) then there would be no reason for the hate. Sadly since those two things still happen, the good things he's brought to this game will be ignored by many because of of how strongly (justifiably so) they feel about the negatives.

Awkward Couch1 votes

So looking into things, I came across this thread.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/yqioklAk-certainlyt-should-not-be-allowed-to-make-another-champion

It looks like he created Darius, Zyra, Zed, Thresh, Yasou, and Kalista. I started playing around the time that Darius was released, and yeah he was really strong. But after release he fell out of favor. I think the same can be said for a lot if not all of these champions. I think the blame falls more on the balance team rather than CertainlyT. But I guess that's just my opinion.

Keevalroy6 votes

It falls on the balance team to correct the state they're in, but the blame for what put them in that spot to begin with falls on the developer.

Leadpaintchips30 votes

Would like to see a response to this, but not holding my breath.

BetweenSkill15 votes

You could go for a world record :p

3ofGot40ve6 votes

Even if there is it will be some BS response about how they do care and all this other crap. You know it.

Leadpaintchips5 votes

I haven't seen a response to any concerns to this type of thing. The most I've seen recently is not in actual response to a post, but a story that they put up (see the one about Fiora). Not that they don't respond (props go out to all those people who actually respond on the Story, Art & Sound boards), but I would LOVE to see someone from the relevant department actually respond to a post in their purview other than a "Well, thanks for the positive feedback.".

Varnoc21 votes

I think part of the problem is the way the Boards are set up right now as well. It mimics Reddit (did we seriously need a copy of it?) far too closely for my tastes. The up/downvote system is too prone to "circlejerking".

This being said, I've come across better systems, but I don't really have the solution to the problem at my fingertips.

I'd like to see individual "Agree" and "Disagree" buttons that are counted individually that others can only see after voting themselves, in addition to the contribution tally we have right now (which is used in the manner of "agree = upvote, disagree = downvote" more often than naught due to the absence of such a system). This way you can see (hell, even sort by) posts that contribute, and those that are popular/unpopular. I've come across many unpopular opinions that were well argued or had a good point, so even If you disagree, you can still say "He has a point" and get both across.

The Agree/Disagree buttons need to be counted individually so that people can see how others feel about their comments. If 1000 people agree with something and Upvote it, while another 999 downvote it for various reasons, the score remains fairly low, and is thus shoved to the bottom of the Boards, never to be seen again.

I'd also like to have a "Thank you" sort of button. Have it expand when you hover over the number to see the people that thanked you for whatever you said/did, but it only shows it to the post/comment's owner, so Reds can thank people while being visible, without needing to comment on it.

BetweenSkill8 votes

YES

Slamurai Jack7 votes

Riot has slowly learned to be careful to say anything in gameplay and balance because they are often viciously attacked when they do so and the more irrational among us immediately latch on to anything they say that could possibly be interpreted negatively and then use it to start a smear campaign against Riot.

BetweenSkill15 votes

Like I said, the 'vicious attacks" subsided within a few days of Red postings and responses on the boards during that 2-3 week period. People that did were downvoted harshly. The toxicity is bred within an environment of neglect.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

most, if not all of your questions can probably be answered with that most rioters were off for the holidays. its not really suprising that there was little activity from riots side during the last couple of weeks.

before that, ive actually seen a lot of experimenting and work being done on the champions you mentioned. there were a bunch of changes on the pbe and a couple of posts. especially about morde.

kog doesnt really need a large buff. his winrate is at 47% which is slightly underperforming but not trash. ive seen a fed kog maw literally 1v3. hes not as weak as most people think.

either way, its to be expected that the pace will pick up again during the coming weeks.

Quepha19 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y4sgQ4zT,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-01-06T17:13:34.356+0000)

most, if not all of your answers can probably be answered with that most rioters were off for the holidays. its not really suprising that there was little activity from riots side during the last couple of weeks.

Riot needs to stop making big changes right before the holidays when they'll be unable to follow up on them. That's what happened to Cassiopeia last year and we were stuck with a massive bug that destroyed her dps for months.

Critmaster Garen8 votes

{quoted}

Riot needs to stop making big changes right before the holidays when they'll be unable to follow up on them. That's what happened to Cassiopeia last year and we were stuck with a massive bug that destroyed her dps for months.

this is also the only time of the year between seasons, were they can do the least damage to the game. Balance got fucked up pretty hard. worse than usual with preseasons yes.

but imo thats mainly the fault of the design direction they went with, rather than the scope of the changes they actually did. the game is always shit for everybody when its focused on marksmen and assassins.

when marksmen are op, nobody is having fun. the marksmen mains are anoyed that they get focused down by hard engage comps and assassinated and everyone else hates it when he gets shredded to shit in seconds by ranged auto attacks, when you dont kill the guy before he can move.

the game will probably even out, once they nerf all these new adc items. mostly essence reaver and pd. which will also make kog maw stronger in relation to other adc, as he scales with as+on hit builds more than with cdr and crit.

its also worth noting that kog was and still is a lategame adc. since games are short right now and end before he actually powerspikes, this contributes to his low winrate.

i feel like its less adc like kog and twitch who need buffs, but lategame hypercarries like vayne or jinx who need nerfs. they bring similar damage to the table as them while being far more self reliant. a hypecarry shouldnt be able to peel for himself imo. there needs to be a drawback for being able to blow up 5 People with aoe rocket crits or absurd amounts of true damage from safe distance.

Sightless6611 votes

the game will probably even out, once they nerf all these new adc items. mostly essence reaver and pd

And then it's awkward because PD sucks so much that it is getting buffed next patch.

BetweenSkill5 votes

It's not even that it sucks, it's actually really good. It's that the "alternatives", shiv and rfc, are so much better and NOTICEABLE in effect.

They feel better to use.

Sightless669 votes

They are more noticeable, but they are just better than PD too in most situations. The effect looks good on paper but in practice it is really easy for that damage reduction to not provide you any meaningful benefit. It can be almost impossible to use it against a burst mage taking you down, and it doesn't help at all for saving you from dying through a CC chain like straight tankiness would (or even like the guaranteed MS from the other zeal upgrades would). It only really works well against assassins, and even then something like a Rengar jumping on you and quick comboing you can put out most of the damage before you can auto him to reduce the damage.

It has the potential to be really good with changes. At current, it's pretty clearly the worst of the 4 options in almost all scenarios.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

And then it's awkward because PD sucks so much that it is getting buffed next patch.

it doesnt suck, and theyre changing the 12% movment speed bonus with enemies nearby to constant 5%.

12% damage reduction for adc on one of their main offensive items is kindof broken.

Sightless6610 votes

theyre changing the 12% movment speed bonus with enemies nearby to constant 5%.

5% + 7% near enemies. Same near enemies, better everytime else. That's a straight buff, which makes sense because it is so mediocre.

12% damage reduction for adc on one of their main offensive items is kindof broken.

Not when the condition attached to it usually gives you the damage reduction A. against the enemy who is not doing the most damage to you and/or B. giving you the damage reduction after the burst of damage. It's really a very limiting problem.

That's not unreasonable. It has the potential to be a powerful effect, so it should be limited. However, right now the limitations clearly outweigh the benefits, so the item is kind of bad. As a result, it is getting buffed, and may be getting more buffs in the future.

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