Could have sworn he specifically stated he will start up a follow-up thread about further changes, how he isn't done with her Passive and other issues...
The next Patch is about to come out, we haven't heard a peep from him ever since 4.21 came out. The Patch where he succeeded by winning over a few people by throwing lots of shiny numbers into her until she reached a level of viability/OP.
Tapu Fini9 votesThe Patch where he succeeded by winning over a few people by throwing lots of shiny numbers into her until she reached a level of viability/OP.
This was the goal in the first place. I gave up on Cassiopeia ever reaching a position I could find fun again. While I hope it happens, I really don't know what else we can do to get the ball rolling again. Most people are content with the kit because it has tons of damage, which of course means not enough support to actually her reworked out of her miserable state.
Grand Eleven7 votesI fear we may be in the minority on this one Ginga: we both trumpeted early and loud that we had little doubt number tweaks could make her viable and to focus on that was missing the point of our dissatisfaction... but yeah keyword: minority.
I think enough people are OK with her adjusted power-levels to be OK with her new role as a single target hyper-carry that worships the holy "E" button.
Bummer ... for awhile there I felt we might be getting traction.
Oh and I feel you forgot your customary image, so here's one.
5G8Nri0B545 votesAs far as I can tell, the majority who like the current Cassiopeia are Spikes. In other words, those who would be content with a Blue Rectangle shooting Red Squares as long as it has large shiny numbers that lets them win.
The saddest part is, these same people can just as easily be satisfied by a legitimate POISON MAGE as long as Stashu loads that with tons of large numbers too.
Grand Eleven2 votesBack in the D&D days we called them munchkins. They used whatever gave them the most pluses. It even eventually became a card game.
OK I feel old.
5G8Nri0B545 votes...the little midgets from Wizard of Oz? I wonder if there are a disproportionate amount of munchkins who are clerics.
MTG players call them Spikes. While I harbor Spikes no ill-will, they...don't exactly see past numbers and that's hurting Cassiopeia.
And I'm pretty certain Stashu is a hardcore Spike.
Just look around, "certain people" are still bringing up her increasing winrate and bullshit like that. I won't name names, but...just look around the thread.
SmokingPuffin6 votesI suspect we'll see Cassiopeia changes in 5.2.
I don't think they are going to be big direction changes though. I expect some tuning to happen where the smooth out the rough patches in her gameplay, maybe tune the power curve a bit more, work on the passive some. I don't think they're likely to put as much emphasis on poison damage as you'd like though.
Personally, I'm having more fun with 4.21 Cass than I had with Cass for years. She could still feel better, in particular I'd enjoy being able to play a Q max build like I used to play sometimes, but I do enjoy the facemelting power and E feels so much more reliable and responsive.
One example: last night I had a half health ADC on my team and I knew LeBlanc was going to walljump a QW combo for the kill. I put Miasma on the carry and got two Es off before LeBlanc was out of range. She died and I was happy.
5G8Nri0B544 votesI'm not saying she's weak or anything, in fact I suspect she might even be OP, only to become fotm once a pro plays her in a tourney or stream, and get knee-jerk nerfed until nobody plays her anymore if I know Riot.
Anyways for your example. Is this possible BECAUSE it's specifically this 4.21 Cassiopeia or do you think anyone with sufficiently large numbers in their kit could have achieved it?
(I say this because I distinctly remember doing just that as Cassiopeia years back...only instead of LB and an ADC it was Ahri and MY blue Buff...slight differences)
SmokingPuffin2 votesI'm not saying she's weak or anything, in fact I suspect she might even be OP, only to become fotm once a pro plays her in a tourney or stream, and get knee-jerk nerfed until nobody plays her anymore if I know Riot.
I think she's probably overtuned on live. In that game I was reliably outtrading the opposing LeBlanc, and while some of that is outplay most of it is raw kit power.
Anyways for your example. Is this possible BECAUSE it's specifically this 4.21 Cassiopeia or do you think anyone with sufficiently large numbers in their kit could have achieved it?
Obviously anyone with sufficiently large numbers could do it. If I were Veigar, LeBlanc would have died even more reliably, for example.
I pointed it out because it felt awesome and was a cool way to use the kit. Mostly the new E reset mechanism is much more reliable, so you don't have to worry about landing the thing too early.
5G8Nri0B544 votesah...okay. Although as I said before, the old Cass could do that too since she had AP ratios on her poisons. Admittedly likely not as good as the current Cass against a single target.
Anyways have fun with the Cassiopeia you like, don't let my disdain over her as LoL's only Poison Mage dissuade you from enjoying her.
Woulda been nice had Stashu worked to appeal to both sides but for now, the best one can do is constantly fling out ideas, reminders, and suggestions until Cassiopeia is something...enjoyable...again.
SmokingPuffin2 votesah...okay. Although as I said before, the old Cass could do that too since she had AP ratios on her poisons. Admittedly likely not as good as the current Cass against a single target.
The main problem with Old Cass in this space isn't so much the E damage. It's that the E reset detection was super brittle and you often wouldn't be able to get that E reset in a case where the target was moving into or out of Miasma.
The new poison detection code is a dramatic improvement here, and the reset is also more responsive because it's 0.5 seconds from cast, rather than 0.7 seconds from land. This is a particularly big deal on annoying mobile champs like LeBlanc; I am reliably getting two Es off on every WQ combo she tries, and sometimes 3. With the Old Cass coding, I'd get one and who knows if I'd even get the reset.
Although this is one of the sour points of the rework in that she lost the effectiveness of spreading poison gas around, focusing on gunning down a single schmuck with an AK-47.
Right. For what it's worth, I'm totally open to shifting some power from E to Q, or exploring a passive that feels more debilitating.
5G8Nri0B544 votesThe new poison detection code is a dramatic improvement here, and the reset is also more responsive because it's 0.5 seconds from cast, rather than 0.7 seconds from land. This is a particularly big deal on annoying mobile champs like LeBlanc; I am reliably getting two Es off on every WQ combo she tries, and sometimes 3. With the Old Cass coding, I'd get one and who knows if I'd even get the reset.
These QoL changes were oft requested features from pretty much all Cass players before the rework. In some small way it's nice that they went with it. Of course NOBODY expected Stashu to also bring it attached to...this.
It's kinda manipulative in a way, to tape the requested QoL changes with all this crap. It puts an extra hoop for you to jump through if you want to criticize Stashu's rework. Even now I suspect a good deal of people think I'm arguing AGAINST the QoL fixes that has her E detect poison upon cast.
Brings out the "you oppose the rework, then you oppose these popular much requested QoL changes too!"-mindset.
Auryiel5 votesI mean... did you REALLY think he was being truthful?
Really?
5G8Nri0B543 votesEh, disbelieving solves less than taking his word.
You can bring it up (like now!) if you take his word for it. Achieves little in the end, but it's that or just settling with hoping they make an actual poison mage replacement in the future...Riot and their new amazingly sparse champion release schedule...
New champion release has become more sparse in favour of new reworks, reworks like...this one...
xl Kirito lx4 votesShe does damage, and at some point becomes a hyper carry. As long as the masses are happy, they'll ignore her. I completely agree, we'll be back to the rework stage soon, as soon as she gets nerfed to oblivion because of some pro player.
5G8Nri0B542 votesAnd after that happens, the sheeps who picked her up only because she has tons of numbers will flock to the next fotm...
As a Vel'koz and Swain main, nothing scares me more than sheep-mentality.
Unedible4 votesHe lied. Maybe.
Probably.
yellowbricks4 votesEvery time I play this game (not nearly as much lately because fuck this rework) I just see a gaping hole in my champ roster where Cass used to be, she doesn't exist to me anymore. She is no longer the champ I found fun to play and paid money for, god willing I'd refund her in a heartbeat, but riot doesn't allow any extra refunds for when they demolish what was fun about a champ (they'd go broke if they did, or god forbid, they'd have to think about what they do before they go and mangle a champ for funsies). Seeing Stashu's attitude, as well as the enabling attitude of all the fotm bandwagoners who only look at winrate and pro streams, I have no hope that anything will get done about Cass other than the inevitable nerf when riot remembers she's not part of the elite cool kids club of LCSBIGPLAYS.
Like seriously, the big complaint was that the poisons do hardly any damage, so what does oh so wise stashu do? He fucking puts more garbage on her E to amp the poisons, you know, because that counts as buffing the poisons and making her E less important, oh wait no it doesn't.
Tabs4 votesI feel like her skills (besides E) need something more to them. They feel extremely weak in comparison, all her power seems to be shoved into E. Besides that she is fun to play IMO
5G8Nri0B545 votesHer E then will need to have a good chunk of it's power siphoned out...and I'm totally fine with that.
A champion should be more than just a single ability...especially if that one single ability is the least fitting ability in her kit.
X8ViEhkPS03 votesI actually remember him saying something on the lines of.
"Yeah our data does show that Cass does not have the tools in her kit to deal with (I think mobile champs) or give her the ability to go around her weaknesses. Example Twitch overcoming his short range with stealth ambushes."
He then proceeds to flat line the MS boost on Q.
DarkenedSoul4203 votesYeah people really underestimate how much that helps her gameplay in general. Especially for harassing in lane
DarkenedSoul4203 votesWell you see, after reading all those shiny numbers, I actually played her and owned with her. Since then she is my go to mid laner, I'm just hoping they dont do what they did to Skarner and nerf her now that she is playable. My advice is rush roa before anything else and rylais as a second or third item, then you are a beefy mage with lots of burst.
However I will say..her w needs some love, the dot is a joke
5G8Nri0B541 votesAsides from her poison being shit, you kinda just described pre-rework...
Of course old Cass was a bit more flexible, for instance, you could sometimes see a Liandries first instead of RoA, but eventually she'd have to get something for her mana because even old Cass with her Passive chugged a lot of mana.
MrBuffington2 votesIt did take him a gap-patch last time to get Cassio changes out; I wouldn't jump the gun just yet
5G8Nri0B542 votesStill, a thread or atleast a tiny bit of presence like he said he would might be nice.
In some ways he's better than a lot of Rioters in that he did discuss Cassiopeia more than say...whoever 
ed did
On the other hand, dayum that's one helluva trainwreck. I mean, I usually enjoy watching trainwrecks, but it's often as an observer rather than someone who enjoyed the train. Then there is the fear that Stashu will just be content and kick-back after throwing more numbers at her.
I do remember a Rioter saying he'd continue to improve and work on Olaf until he is completely fixed up. But people grew complacent and just accepted he will never be fixed and he's just like this since then. I fear this will happen for league's only Poison Mage.
MrBuffington2 votesWell, compared to Olaf, at least Cassio is strong, even if it's just overtuned numbers.
5G8Nri0B543 votesRather she be weak tbh.
She's strong, then you have sheeps flocking in playing her specifically because she's strong, assume people who are complaining are just QQ-ing that she isn't stronger, and muddles the message.
The worst part about making shitty champions strong is that people who play champions solely because they are OP kinda drowns out those who were with the champion from the beginning, the ones who actually like the champion beyond being an easy win. These same people will literally play a blue rectangle shooting red squares if it's numbers are high enough.
Hence why I rather the champion is weak. If the champion is weak, those who like the champion for what it is may still find enjoyment in it, while those who don't will voice their displeasure.
Once Riot can get enough people to like the champion for it's fantasy and gameplay, they know they have a working kit, THEN they can start throwing in shiny numbers so the sheeps can flock in too.
Tapu Fini4 votesWe haven't seem him at all though, not a word. Given his track record, I'd bet he's moved on to the next stacking nightmare rework.
MrBuffington1 votesWe haven't seem him at all though, not a word. Given his track record, I'd bet he's moved on to the next stacking nightmare rework.
lol this happens after every update; he goes off radar for a while and then comes back with a new thread and new changes. So, given his track record, he's actually more likely to come back in like a week or two with a new thread.
Grand Eleven2 votesIt has happened yes ... but at the same time his last post was before the Christmas break (Riot locks up 2 weeks for the holiday) making this the longest lapse in reply for the entire process.
I'd also like to state his last update had ZERO changes ... just reassurance as there were delays on getting things onto the PBE. Cass has actually gone untouched from a design perspective for nearly 2 months (aka skip the minor pbe nerf she got, the poison burn was her last change).
5G8Nri0B542 votesWell there is a bright spot in that he did express a tinge of dissatisfaction over her Passive.
He's very defensive about turning a Poison Mage into Rambo though. :/
Captain Aishi2 votesi like the new E poison amp interaction in matchups where you can't all-in too easily, but yeah the passive still sucks... especially the 1100 AP late game vs veigar X(
ChargeItDownMid2 votes[deleted]
Grand Eleven2 votesWhen dfg is removed combined with the new cass tending to favor tanky builds (rushing early roa) her sustained damage will hit a spotlight and expect nerfs shortly after.
Which will be ironic because I called this potential problem months ago: her design exists outside the meta and thus will always either be UP or OP depending on if she can abuse that position.
Really I might be OK with it if I thought Riot might release more "outside the meta champs" and eventually entertain and encourage variance in team composition ... but that implies allowing hard counters which Riot is firmly against .... so just expect a cass nerf after DFG departs.
Fluppets2 votesI do agree it is time for a follow-up thread, or even just a post, something.
AquariusGine2 votesI'm only concerned about 1 thing, is this really the direction Riot wants to take with her? Her passive is a ball of stats that lets you make a comeback lategame if you fail, but does not really reward you for making plays/ snowballing. What it does do is it allows Riot to control her power spikes. (500 stacks at 33minutes every game lol)
Cass cannot splitpush, roam or make flashy plays, damage is all she has. And permanent slow with Rylai but you can't rush it every game :P
I love playing the current Live Cass because I love machine gun.. E's, but I also want her to be healthy champion. Forgive me Riot but I have a feeling you overtuned her to shut people up. And that she needs to stay overtuned to be viable, because her passive .. is independent of the player's progress. I really hope I am wrong.
CaptnJakSparrow2 votesI honestly wish there was a melee snake poison character :( It'd be so much fun.
5G8Nri0B542 votesMelee Twin Fangs, but rather giant torso-sized fangs, it's really loud and forceful sounding punches with loud strained grunting noises with each punch.
You want.......THIS!
CaptnJakSparrow2 votesMelee Twin Fangs, but rather giant torso-sized fangs, it's really loud and forceful sounding punches with loud strained grunting noises with each punch.
You want.......THIS!
No. I mean a http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/redwall/images/6/6f/Asmodeus_TVseries.png/revision/latest?cb=20100209005206
Or, http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/101/2/f/the_snake_by_highdarktemplar-d4gl9a1.jpg
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/243/e/e/giant_snake_by_juanico_el_muertes-d48f2lo.jpg
I'm assuming you're getting the general idea. A legitimate snake that actually hunts down its prey and bites the hell out of people, maybe even constricts ((even though poisonous snakes rarely if ever constrict.)) I think it'd be a really cool concept.
5G8Nri0B542 votesOh, so a literal actual snake like:
http://images.forwallpaper.com/files/images/4/4285/428595c4/513640/attack.jpg
Rather than:
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs42/i/2009/107/1/1/Snake_Muscle_by_ripped_saurian.jpg
Yeah I can get behind that. Probably not for Cassiopeia though, but another champion.
CaptnJakSparrow1 votesOh, so a literal actual snake like:
http://images.forwallpaper.com/files/images/4/4285/428595c4/513640/attack.jpg
Rather than:
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs42/i/2009/107/1/1/Snake_Muscle_by_ripped_saurian.jpg
Yeah I can get behind that. Probably not for Cassiopeia though, but another champion.
Yes, a literal, actual snake. And no, not for Cass's rework. I'm just saying that I would like an ACTUAL snake character. There's so many things they could do with it @_@. I mean, sadly it'd have to be a jungler, or maybe some weird mid lane character.'m thinking definitely jungle . . . but as I was saying, there's huge potential there.
warpenguin5551 voteshes probably working on it. just because nothing comes out 1 patch, doesnt mean he stopped
5G8Nri0B542 votesIf 5.2's preview has anything to say, it might be 2 patches. The previous patch she had an update consisted of "throwing lots of shiny numbers at her" and "load even more into her E"
And even then, a thread or an update like he said he would would sure be nice.
Rinky Dinky1 votesShe is fun. She just isnt the champion we want her to be.
Its an identity crisis, not a Gameplay or Fun crisis.
5G8Nri0B543 votesObvious issue here is this...
Why screw her identity? Having a fitting identity should not excluded from a champion being fun or balanced.
How hard is it to have her fit her identity...while also being balanced and fun?
Rinky Dinky1 votesThat's what I said.
The champion Riot has turned Cassiopeia into is fine. The fact that it's Cassiopeia is not.
They turned her from a poison DoT mage to an AP marksmen.
The Red Warden1 votesI have the feeling that they are reworking the passive so that it adds more mechanics to her (faster ult activation, q and w being changed, removing some of the 4+ effects that are put on her e). He did say that he would try to make it less of a stat boost and to do that takes time. With how the passive is set up, the stat boost will either be reached too early and let her snowball (like old Kass could) or take too long to fully stack and she stays useless for most of the entire match.
Passive stat boosts that never go off once activated are near-impossible to balance, and they probably realized that.
5G8Nri0B542 votesI thought they realized that years ago, how did such a passive like this come to fruition now?
BlackTh0ughtz1 votesI love the new cass. She's very unforgiving to play but when u get it right it feels satisfying to get that double, triple, etc.
My only issues are that her poisons are useless. They don't have much usefulness other than getting stacks and the slow on miasma
5G8Nri0B544 votesOkay, you just described the old Cass...only with useless poison.
There is a misconception that old Cass was strong poison with weak E, but that's wrong. She's always been strong poison and strong fangs rather than right now, where it's shit poison and overloaded fangs.
