I find it hilarious Ashe can't crit Yi or Olaf while they are ulting.

The Taco Kat·Aug 29, 2015·113 votes·15,564 views

"Can't be slowed."

"When asked if characters who are immune to disables or slows (such as Master Yi and Olaf under effect so of their R will also be immune to Ashe's bonus damage against slowed targets, he noted: 'Currently, yes, these characters could not be crit by Ashe.'"- http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/04/red-post-collection-discussion-on-Bs

for the people unaware of this, Ashe is still able to ult Yi... He doesn't go invulnerable to cc. And it isn't just Ashe who gets countered by this; Nautilus vs Olaf is never fun.

110 Comments

The Yetii RiderAug 29, 201539 votes

O Not Rekt O Rekt X Tyrannosaurus Rekt

idokiAug 29, 201535 votes

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 30, 201519 votes

Yep, still can't crit these guys under these conditions.

Solidair3Aug 30, 201514 votes

Is there no way for them to be affected by Frost Shots while not being slowed?

If memory serves, something was done to separate GP's old poison and slow. Could the same be done for Ashe? I feel damage reduction because they can't be slowed is kind of lame.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 30, 201514 votes

There is definitely a way to make it happen. Currently she doesn't crit because the expectation for the opposing player is that if I'm not slowed by her, I don't take extra damage, and I've been operating under the assumption that there's value in preserving that.

Neutral monsters are special cased still be crit because there is no player on the other end whose expectations are being mismanaged, and because bringing a damage penalty to Baron/Dragon seemed inappropriate for a marksman generally.

Shadow WalkAug 30, 20157 votes

{quoted}

and I've been operating under the assumption that there's value in preserving that.

Is there also value in literally not being able to do anything to either of them either? Might as well add a tag to the ult that says "removes Ashe from the game".

Other ADCs can focus him down while he's barreling at them, she can't even do that.

And as much as I HATE ASHE, there shouldn't be such an ultimatum against a champion.

KougaAug 30, 20155 votes

I mean they still take damage. And Olaf's ult lasts for all of 6 seconds. I don't think "deals base damage to Olaf for 6 seconds" is quite the same as "removed from game."

Besides, just because another Champion does have regular Crit Chance doesn't mean they're going to crit in that time frame.

LankPantsAug 30, 20154 votes

Besides, just because another Champion does have regular Crit Chance doesn't mean they're going to crit in that time frame.

It means in that frame their damage is increased by their crit chance plus the IE multiplier on average over the duration.

Ashe's damage is increased by 0%, which is a huge deal.

Violet MiracleAug 30, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shadow Walk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y1Pd4XLP,comment-id=0013000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-30T07:43:38.126+0000)

Is there also value in literally not being able to do anything to either of them either? Might as well add a tag to the ult that says "removes Ashe from the game".

Other ADCs can focus him down while he's barreling at them, she can't even do that.

And as much as I HATE ASHE, there shouldn't be such an ultimatum against a champion.

You speak as if Riot should apply logic to their decisions and not release anti-Ashe items like new Randuins.

LankPantsAug 30, 201511 votes

There is definitely a way to make it happen. Currently she doesn't crit because the expectation for the opposing player is that if I'm not slowed by her, I don't take extra damage, and I've been operating under the assumption that there's value in preserving that.

The problem I have with this is that Yi and Olaf are hard matchups for Ashe even when she can crit them. They already make your CC useless, having them make your damage useless too seems over the top.

Photos of GhostsAug 30, 20152 votes

If anything, being a utility/kite based ADC, she should get a damage bonus against unkitable poops.

Sona PingAug 30, 201510 votes

There is currently a pretty large expectation for ADC players that some of their stats don't suddenly stop working as well.

LeeDarkAug 30, 201513 votes

Do you not realize how broken it would be if, for example, Silver Bolts just DID NOT WORK AT ALL on a few champions? Same thing.

What about Ashe's expectation that if she builds crit, she does more damage? Oh, whoops... forgot there was an Olaf top running at me. I thought I could kill him fast enough, but I don't do any damage against him! It's penalty enough that she can't kite them; they shouldn't get what is essentially a huge damage reduction that they didn't build against her.

LankPantsAug 30, 201524 votes

Silver Bolts just DID NOT WORK AT ALL on a few champions?

How do I sign up?

LordGeovanniAug 31, 20151 votes

the fact that they used their ults in the right time to nullify what is a op bs 100% crit chance on second hit system they shouldnt be punished because of it 100% crit chance takes the chance right out of it makeing it 100% crit

LeeDarkAug 31, 20151 votes

I'm sorry, but if you think Ashe's passive is OP, you're just an idiot and not worth even the amount of time it is taking to type this sentence. Goodbye.

The Taco KatSep 1, 20151 votes

It's one of the 3 things that make her strong. (it is not op though)

Her pick potential off of her ultimate.
Her Q HURTS. A LOT. (Esp. with Black Cleaver)
Her passive is a constant slow on autos. Free Frozen Mallet passive, and after the first auto, she gets bonus damage. Keep in mind she is REALLY strong late game due to Infinity Edge and new Zeke's, as well as Phantom Dancer.

LeeDarkSep 1, 20151 votes

Strong, sure, and her win rate is 4th best among ADC's, even. But she still lacks mobility/escapes of her own.

Her passive is not, however, a free Frozen Mallet. At level 16, she gets more slow from her passive than she would from Frozen Mallet, but no ranged builds Frozen Mallet, and her slow still doesn't match the melee slow of the Mallet. Hell, for most of the game her passive doesn't even come close to a melee Mallet. And the passive is the focus of this discussion.

The Taco KatSep 1, 20151 votes

I'm not saying it's exactly better, but yes, it is a weaker version of FM passive. Her escapes are replaced by utility, but it's difficult for me to find every little thing I am and am not fine with, as I hate fighting Ashe. But yeah, in comparison to Vayne and her Silver Bolts, Ashe is a 100% perfectly fine champion from that aspect.

maikokkAug 30, 20154 votes

most players actually dont have that expectation. most players game knowledge is that ashe deals more damage the more she attacks you (if that) the only true expectation they have regarding slow resistance is that they will not be slowed. im sure this changes at high level play, but the mechanic is even more horrific there.... if ashe cant kite these champions under these effects, her only counterplay outside her ult and flash (neither of which will do more than delay her death vs yi during an ult) is sustain. if she cannot crit, she cannot sustain. the difference between yi 2 shotting you, and yi 3 shotting you is the difference between your ult having a chance at saving your life, and not bothering to do anything but stand there and die because its a waste.

MasterVidallisAug 31, 20151 votes

But it doesn't even make sense, her autos should apply two separate debuffs. One that causes the crit for X amount of time and another that slows. In most cases, it won't matter since they overlap. But in fringe cases where a champion is immune to the slow part, it should still get the crit debuff part.

Those ults are already really powerful and seem to me were not designed to reduce damage on top of it. In a match where Ashe has to deal with them, it just makes it really frustrating for the player.

Sniper 0Aug 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There is definitely a way to make it happen. Currently she doesn't crit because the expectation for the opposing player is that if I'm not slowed by her, I don't take extra damage, and I've been operating under the assumption that there's value in preserving that.

Neutral monsters are special cased still be crit because there is no player on the other end whose expectations are being mismanaged, and because bringing a damage penalty to Baron/Dragon seemed inappropriate for a marksman generally.

Honestly this is really cool. I mean it gives her more counterplay.

Morgana "ohhh darn, my adc is going to be pelted by ashe spellshield, ahhhh that's better" She might not need that counter play. (I mean she is really really sticky at times) It was probably also unintentional counterplay. Correct me if I'm wrong.

NebuulAug 30, 20158 votes

This should be handled like dragon/baron, where ashe can still debuff and damage them even though they cannot be slowed.

LankPantsAug 30, 20156 votes

Maybe it's just me but it kind of feels bad that these characters who are already good counters to Ashe because they can ignore her CC also get to ignore her damage.

AMYS GRAVEAug 30, 20155 votes

Pretty lame feeling for the ashe player.

IcyPepperAug 30, 20155 votes

It's kind of... not fair.

An ulting assassin or ulting bruiser is already a nightmare when it's rampaging right for you. Having your damage basically gimped on top of that? These guys already have some sort of sustain, hell Master Yi could basically ignore all of Ashe's damage by healing after killing her.

maikokkAug 30, 20158 votes

its gut-wrenching to see a red-post regarding this that doesn't end with "but we have plans to fix this"

Comrade NapoleonAug 30, 20154 votes

Especially from RiotRepertoir :(

Comrade NapoleonAug 30, 20152 votes

Do you think you guys went too harsh on her in the latest nerf?

She went from being able to get full stacks from a single W to only one, i think it was a bit too much. right now in case of a sudden fight you need to land W+R+3AA to be able to use q and that really tricky with all these assassins coming back to the game. Add this threads topic to what i said and i think you would find a really awesome ADC a bit under tuned.

Please consider reverting that to something in the middle, something like

"her W gives a stack on each enemy hit with a max of 3 stacks"

OR..

"W gives a stack on each enemy champ hit"

This way she couldn't pull off more that 3 stacks per W in lane and it would be rewarding for her to use it optimally and hit as much champs as possible in team fights. Thanks

Sett up 4my gankAug 29, 201510 votes

Didn't even think of that, if thats actually the case they should probably allow her Q to leave a buff on targets who cant be slowed allowing her to crit them.

The Taco KatAug 29, 20158 votes

I am NOT suggesting a buff. Hence why I said this is "funny." She is still a bit powerful right now.

NarasimhaAug 29, 20153 votes

I.. think you misread what he said. What he was implying was that Ashe's attacks should leave some sort of effect on the targets other than the slow, so that she can still 'crit' them even if they are cc immune at the time.

ModAcademy KaynAug 29, 20151 votes

They do, the frost shot debuff. It normally slows, but when Yi ults, the debuff remains allowing for them to be crit.

The Taco KatAug 29, 20151 votes

I'm gonna be completely honest, I didn't look into this to see if there is a debuff or not. I'm not entirely sure if this actually is the case, but it seems likely to be this way.

Edit: I have searched more into this and it does crit, link in the main topic.

ModAcademy KaynAug 29, 20152 votes

Riot has answered this before, and confirmed, that the debuff is there on -Cant be slowed- targets. It would've been a sloppy job on Riots part otherwise.

7ha7guy777Aug 29, 20158 votes

Morgana 's black shield should stop her crits if Olaf and Yi stop them

spavinedAug 29, 20155 votes

it does

hashinshinAug 29, 20153 votes

This seems fair to me.

Want other examples? Olaf is immune to Yasuo ult for 6 seconds. Master Yi's ult makes him ignore Frozen Heart. Jax dodge doesn't dodge special attacks. Viktor gravity field can't stun Yi.

I could think of more, but this isn't some anti-Ashe conspiracy. Your ability needs to slow people to work, and it doesn't slow. So it doesn't work.

5000000000000000Aug 29, 20152 votes

I'm pretty sure Ashe crit works on anyone who has "Frost Shots" debuff, which can be applied by AA, Volley, and Enchanted Crystal Arrow. So even though they are slowed, the crits should work.

junglerboy16Aug 29, 20158 votes

Olaf can't be debuffed during his ult, so he is fully immune to her crit while ulting, and Yi may or may not be (haven't actually tested it out, but on PBE riot said it didn't crit him).

5000000000000000Aug 29, 20153 votes

Olaf can't be CC'd, but can be debuffed (revealed, for example). Same with Yi. Can't be slowed, but can be debuffed.

CrazedPorcupineAug 29, 201512 votes

Frost Shots is considered A Slow Debuff, which means anyone immune to slows (Which makes them immune to slowing debuffs) immune to ashe's Crits.

5000000000000000Aug 29, 20152 votes

Does it work as something like "slowing/disabling debuff cannot be applied on this champion" or "slowing/disabling effect is ignored?" Because if it's the latter, it would allow Ashe to crit Olaf/Yi/Morgana shielded enemy. I haven't tested it yet, and the wiki doesn't specify. Maybe she really can't crit them.

Z46Aug 29, 20153 votes

The associated debuff is removed entirely, and can't be applied thereon until Ragnarok, Black Shield or Highlander are no longer in effect.

DorkunedAurasAug 30, 20153 votes

I'd think it would work like you're saying, that they should be able to be crit. Certainly if I was Rito, then I'd program the indicator for crits to happen as a different thing as the actual slow, and just give them the same duration and activation sources, so they seem the same. Riot might wanna check on that, unless they like it.

The Taco KatAug 29, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Frost Shots is considered A Slow Debuff, which means anyone immune to slows (Which makes them immune to slowing debuffs) immune to ashe's Crits.

IMPORTANT I believe this is the case, and thus Yi, Olaf, and [possibly] Black Shielded enemies cannot be critically struck.

DarkwindAug 29, 20152 votes

On another note, Anivia has the same problem. Rito pls.

Lady HammerlockAug 30, 20152 votes

that is so bull because ashe can't crit otherwise

JedenVojakAug 30, 20151 votes

Ashe can't crit ever, actually. She just has a passive which gives her bonus damage to enemies that she has slowed, based on her crit chance and damage.

I find her to be incredibly boring now.