What if Annie E increased range but delays as a rework?

TeCoolMage··11 votes·916 views

Read below for explanation

E: Playtime - Instead of giving her damage reduction, her next ability gains range and damage (leaning towards AP scaling increase, no base damage increase, to avoid abusing the support role or any tank builds with obscene base damage). On the downside, W has a long travel time to the edge (still near instant at the start), R needs to be thrown, Q becomes a skillshot. She glows with an aura of flame like some DBZ animu character. Instantly goes on a 15-20 second

If it's too weak - she still gets bonus damage but can cast the normal version of an ability if she's in default range for it. Only using the bonus range make sure her need to aim. I think this is unnecessary though. If it's too strong, maybe she gets slowed like rammus/Xerath and she does a skipping animation for her walk

R Tibbers has the least increase of damage on summon (but still noticeable), but the highest total damage by auto attack damage increase

W has the second highest damage increase, most noticeable AOE increase in that the cone extends outwards as well as forwards.

Q has the most dramatic damage increase towards the first champion hit, turns into a linear skillshot like brand Q or Shyvana, stops on first champion hit, deals damage to minions as an AOE and refunds mana per minion kill

Tibbers burn aura removed, increased auto attack damage scaling with AP and AS scaling with CDR (more explanation later). Slightly decreased AOE damage on cast. Q (?) decreased damage but has 'deals x% bonus to minions' to compensate for CSing W changes to make it worth picking over Q occasionally to max, probably % AP scaling per rank but reduced at rank 1. Deals less damage to minions.

alternative solution: lower bonus damage, if it stuns, duration is current annie's stun duration. Base stun duration is nerfed. I don't know which is better so either works.


Explanation: Annie needs more counterplay and more engage tools, while her identity has never been to be a mobile mage like Ahri. By giving her gated range she can't become a poke champion, and by giving her drawbacks for using E she gets the counterplay she needs and the power she needs to nerf her flash ult engage playstyle

Also, it turns her E into an ability that requires skill to use, rather than just an extra passive stack. The reason is that there's equal power in all 3 upgrades but they're all situational. R has the most sustained damage and will be useful against fed bruisers and tanks as well as having one of the shorter delays allowing it to be a better engage, W has the most AOE damage on a big delay and will let her engage on a very badly positioned enemy team, or a very immobile team caught out, and Q will be good waveclear, but in teamfights leaving a backline carry exposed or being caught out in the jungle alone will mean a quick end, due to the extreme damage.

By going full AP she's similar to old Annie as an engage mage but with CDR she can fill (suboptimally) the role of a DPS by having E empowered tibbers out longer, and that CDR increases its sustained damage.

The best part is that she doesn't have any difficult mechanics like yas E management, riven animation cancelling, and remains simple in lower elos and newer players

A big downside is that a lot of people have anti-annie sentiment and hate the idea of giving her range, and may point out that E flash would have so much range but I'd rather dodge something as counterplay rather than constantly be out of range - isn't that why a lot of auto attacks ults are frustrating to play against?

EDIT: to clear up some confusion

Her abilities are still point and click or instant when unempowered but weaker in damage (or CC by the alternative) so she can't flash RWQ and kill you regardless of whether you're mobile or not. But if the jungler is close by you're likely dead.

She's heavily rewarded by using EQ in a 1v1 when it's dodged most easily because it has the largest gains in damage, but she can still point and click Q but won't really get a kill due to lower damage. She can QERW vs a mobile enemy, leading with Q stun. She can't really burst to 0 health with flash tibbers but she can burst to 50% at least and the entire team will follow up in teamfights

27 Comments

The Yetii Rider6 votes

Annie does not need more counterplay. Riot has already stated that Annie's instant burst that is largely undodgeable is necessary to deal with the large amount of mobility in mid lane. Same with Veigar and Syndra and their point and click ults. How is Annie supposed to burst people down if they can dodge her more easily?

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Because he isn't necessarily required to burst people down. OP said that Tibbers would be doing much more damage if empowered and I would ASSUME the Movespeed steroid would still be in affect. Also Tibbers has always been able to apply Rylai's passively so saying she needs these things for "mobility creep" is silly when she can already keep mobile champions in check with an actual permanent 20% slow while mauling them. With the aura on tibbers he actually does a teamwide perma slow, but it isn't "worth" buying Rylais on her currently because it doesn't give her enough AP to "outplay" entire teams when she has flash up.

Also I would really like to know what sort of mid lanes you are getting where there is "a lot of mobility" since damn near every match up I have seen in the past few games has been mage vs mage with Ahri being the most mobile thing.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Champions that have mobility creep have it regardless of itemization. Annie needing to sink 2600 gold into countering it makes her worse at doing so.

The current meta is irrelevant. Mobility exists in the game and Annie is a safeguard against it. Changing it because it doesn't affect the game now doesn't mean it won't affect the game as a whole.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Easy: use the point and click Q stun, ER and chase them down with tibbers. She still has point and click, and instantaneous AOE stuns if she needs it. It does less damage though

KyojiTakajo1 votes

No one is going to be in range of Annie's Q when she has her stun up.

KyojiTakajo1 votes

No one is going to be in range of Annie's Q when she has her stun up.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Then she's still Flash stunning people. She's not getting any additional counterplay, you would just be changing her rotation and lowering the burst for no reason.

Edge of Daybreak2 votes

So basically never press E when you want to actually kill someone. That sounds terrible and extremely situational.

TeCoolMage1 votes

I'm pretty sure killing the enemy team is the goal when using any damage ability.

Also any Annie who would use this E as a finisher and not as an engage is probably bad at the game.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

Any annie who would use your version of e to engage is an idiot lol. Why would i give up instant aoe stun for delayed aoe stun because it has slightly more range. it's 800 range already wtf would i use a skill that makes it less reliable?

TeCoolMage1 votes

It gives more damage and lets Annie do it from a safe range. That's enough of a reason.

No point using it as a finisher if you were already in QW range to do the first burst of damage

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Annie really does not seem like an upgrade character. Not too mention this would make her a lot harder to play, when she's supposed to be a low-skill floor champion.

Her weakness is her short range, if you take that away she's going to become pretty oppressive. Besides, except for her Flash+Tibbers combo Annie has counterplay.

TeCoolMage1 votes

WW is still considered easy despite his rework, this change introduces much less - a new Annie can still be successful if all she does is ER or EW whenever she can. It's also more intuitive than flash tibbers (a lot of new Annie players who don't read about her combos just walk up and QWER)

Her weakness is still range to compensate for her ability speed, and this swaps the two around for only a single ability and it's still definitely a weakness. If Annie stuns with a max range Q, how will she W now that her E buff has been used up?

Warhammer Titan1 votes

sounds cool

NotCounter1 votes

not playing the game (sitting out of annie's flash range) is the type of "counterplay" that needs to be phased out of the game. you should feel a sense of being outplayed when you die, and stepping up a bit too close when you don't have flash up isn't my idea of that

Stars Shaper1 votes

Yes please, I'm tired to have her survive at more than half hp a full combo from some1 supposed to counter her (Xerath) but if I make the mistake to stay in her Tibbers range for more than 0.5 seconds I'm dead meat (and my tower too).

The Yetii Rider1 votes

To your edit: Why exactly should she not be able to Flash RQW kill you? She's a burst mage. There is no reason her ability to burst someone down instantly should be less than Syndra or Veigar or Malzahar.

"She can't really burst to 0 health with Flash Tibbers" - then what is the point of picking Annie?

TeCoolMage1 votes

Except Syndra has delays in her Q, Veigar is either super late game or has to land E, and Malzahar is a single target threat?

Meanwhile Talon, Zed, Kha'zix, Fizz, etc all have huge delays in their kit as well

but apparently when Annie gets a delay to bring a full health enemy to 0 health she's suddenly useless? Save your no counterplay combo for half to third health enemies who misposition? learn to aim? Take advantage of the fact you have AoE burst while Veigar, Syndra and Malzahar have single target ults (in exchange their AoE abilities are more poke/CC oriented)?

Just aim your Q, it's going to be like Shyvanna's human fireball. If you can't aim your Q then empower W and use it point blank. If you can't aim your W point blank, I have no clue how someone can be that bad unless they're at 9k ping.

Annie still counters mobile champs in small skirmishes and teamfights but she can't just walk into the jg and negate an assassin completely by 1v1'ing them and not even baiting out their dash/blink, then do their job better than them in teamfights.

If Annie brings 5 champions to 50% health in 0.5 seconds that's still burst too, not everyone needs to be like Kha'zix 100-0 single target in isolation

The Yetii Rider1 votes

None of what you have said is any justification for Annie needing more counterplay. The fact that so many other mages have counterplay is part of the reason Annie needs to stay as-is, or mobile champions have zero ways to punish them. One is better than zero.

TeCoolMage1 votes

It's extremely stupid to say that mobile champions can't be punished, and even more stupid to say it makes sense that you have to pick a certain champion to do anything vs mobility, and that's somehow okay.

If mobile champions can't be punished by immobile champions, and the only reason they're statistically balanced is because of Annie, then clearly Annie is broken asf and the entire system is broken. Rework every single mobile champion and rework annie who would, in your world, have an 80% winrate because only 40~ champions have no mobility at all.

It's really not that hard to beat a mobile champion. Wait for them to dash in - now they can't dodge. Wait for them to dodge - now they can't dash in. If they have more than one dash, they have to pick, if they just waste them all on getting into range and dodging they won't have enough damage to kill.

It's seriously not that hard to hit something like a lux binding, Syndra Q, shyvana Q, or even a brand W on a mobile champion. Annie having one delayed ability (and mind you she can set this up by stunning them with her point and click Q) isn't the end of the world. There's a reason why no one picks Annie despite Lucian+zac being everywhere, and that immobile champions like Janna and Nami are picked (even though you can just pick 5 mobile champions and ban Annie for a free win every game under your logic)

More importantly, Annie doesn't even specifically counter mobile champions. She just lands all her abilities and kills regardless of whether they're mobile or not.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

If Annie isn't a problem right now why do you think she needs to be reworked?

There's nothing wrong with reliable burst damage. Syndra and Veigar can both press R to nuke as well. Annie has to get a bit closer to do it, that's why she has the guaranteed 100-0.

Annie's just fine the way she is. Mobile champions are a pain in the ass to deal with.

TeCoolMage1 votes

You do know that the enemy has to be at around half health, or they're 2 hours into the game for Veigar R to kill alone?

And again Syndra needs to set up and she's not even likely to kill an ADC with null magic mantle if they're even in gold with just R, she needs to land Q by bare minimum. It's not even physically possible for her to kill a behind ADC with a minimum orb R.

They're nowhere as reliable nukes as Annie's abilities.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Veigar doesn't need to use his R to kill someone by itself. Just like Annie doesn't need to use her R to kill someone by itself. She still needs to Q, W, TLD and maybe Ignite to kill someone from full.

Why would Syndra's R be minimum orb? Yes, if she's just afk and presses R for no reason, she can't do much damage. So what? That's hardly an argument. Syndra can easily throw six orbs at the enemy and burst them to pieces.

Annie trades longer range for reliability. That's totally fine.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

I like this champ, i mean his theme is cool.

I like ur changes... but her stun need to be changed with ur changes, not removed. She need some cc.

TeCoolMage2 votes

I didn't say anything about removing the stun tho

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

XD so its my misunderstood.

BakedLotion1 votes

She's just gonna be a poke mage with E Q spam with 40% cdr lol

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