Really hope that Riot doesn't add a "shield breaker/reducer" item or ability into the game

Salron·Aug 25, 2017·87 votes·4,053 views

Because if they do, then shields will end up in the same binary state that healing is in, which means:

Either you buy the counter item, and the enemy shields become either bearable, or nearly worthless or You don't buy the counter item, and they're too much to handle

This is the exact state of healing in the game atm since you are FORCED into buying executioners to deal with healing, and if you don't then you're probably going to lose, and it feels shitty for the one on the receiving end too since there is nothing you can do to avoid having executioners applied the debuff onto you

Shields need to be balanced some other way that doesn't repeat the exact same thing over

98 Comments

Bladerunner7777Aug 25, 201755 votes

Janna mains trembling in fear of their freelo

MelledoneusAug 25, 201745 votes

Shen mains contemplating whether existence is slowly becoming torment

An Undead bratAug 26, 20175 votes

I would have an actual unpopular opinion here, but I will rather not bother just for being downvoted and shamed.

BlitzidiousAug 26, 20173 votes

Gimme the details. I want to know your opinion.

An Undead bratAug 26, 20175 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/tw1zMQrM2IhC8/giphy.gif

LightIsMyPathAug 26, 20174 votes

Opinion or downvote 😈 what now?

An Undead bratAug 26, 20174 votes

You think you can blackmail me? [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

LightIsMyPathAug 26, 20173 votes

To satisfy curiosity? Hell yes

An Undead bratAug 26, 20172 votes

You are going to need to come up with something better, because you made me use only 99.9% of my power!

(Yes I suck)

SpecterVonBarenAug 26, 20172 votes

I'll give you a cookie if you tell us.

An Undead bratAug 26, 20172 votes

Damn, you're starting to get pretty hard on me... [zombie-nunu-hearts]

Forhonor321Aug 26, 201721 votes

{quoted}

existence is slowly becoming torment

existence is ... torment

Urgot approves

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 26, 201723 votes

So then what should be the counter?

Heals are binary because the heal is permanent. The health you restore doesn't go away. Not to mention heals are applied a lot faster because of stuff like lifesteal, regeneration or otherwise. Shields, however, are a massive albeit temporary boost to your HP pool. The only counter to shields at this time is "Deal about 1.5x the damage you expected to do" or just don't fight when the shield is up. It puts the onus entirely on the shielding character. I don't feel smart because I outplayed Janna's shield, I feel like she fucked up and that's why I won.

A shield remove/debuff would be fine, so long as it's an active or a debuff item (ala what DFG used to be) rather than an outright "Reduces all shields on this target for the next <x> seconds."

Mister SupportAug 26, 20173 votes

Similar to how movespeed bonuses give diminishing returns, could make it where shield totals above x% of the targets max hp gives diminishing returns. Or just in general rework the shield system to work off of %HP of targets so the effectiveness helps characters overall.

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 26, 201712 votes

The problem there is that once again, move speed is usually a permanent fixture with things like zeal items, trinity, boots and otherwise. Temporary speed boosts feel amazing because a 100% MS boost has very small diminishing returns in comparison to how much you're getting.

As for the % HP, it could work. That said, it also makes shielding better on high HP targets, making shielding supports worse in bot lane ADC situations but better in melee/tanky situa-

Yeah actually let's do that S-tier idea my dude. Make brusiers go bot. 100%. Fuckin' let's GO.

I Main SwainAug 26, 20172 votes

part of it though is that grievous wounds is 50% reduced healing and it lasts a rather long time, imo it should be brief so you cant just love tap mundo with an aa and make his ult heal super low

ArbiterOfTruthAug 26, 20171 votes

GW reduces healing by 40% and the duration changes based on source. For example, Morellonomicon inflicts GW for 8 secs on enemies with 35% health or lower where as Thornmail and Executioner's inflict it for 1 second. The only way a Mundo is keeping GW on himself is if he's the target of the ADC and the keep applying GW to him or he got ignited.

ahferroin7Aug 27, 20171 votes

OK, let's take a look at each of the GW options:

Thornmail and Bramble Vest: Apply GW for 1 second to people who auto-attack you. This is only an issue for lifesteal, unless your teammate is braindead and doesn't disengage when they are low.
Executioner's Calling: Applies GW for 3 seconds when dealing physical damage. Not all that powerful unless you're dealing damage continuously or your target is stupid. At most, this is only significant during combat.
Mortal Reminder: Same as EC, but for 5 seconds. This can be an issue if you're being kited, but other than that, it's pretty much the same as for EC, only a significant issue during combat. For the record, this is the only item source I have issue with, but the reason I take issue with it is the duration relative to other sources (it's arguably a far superior way to apply GW than Morello's or Thornmail except in very specific circumstances).
Morellonomicon: Applies GW for 8 seconds when dealing magic damage to a target below 35% HP. This applies for a long time, but it also is only possible to apply in cases where you're essentially dead anyway. If you've been hit by this, you should be running regardless because you're liable to get jumped and killed, even if you do have a healer near by.
Katarina's ult: Applies a 3 second GW to all targets it hits. Same argument as for EC, it's not very significant once you disengage, and it arguably is part of what makes Kat's ult powerful (people who are stupid enough to stay in can't be saved reliably).
Varus' E: Creates an area that gives GW to people inside it. GW duration is exactly as long as you remain in the debuff area, so if this is an issue, you're playing wrong.
Ignite: Applies GW for the 5 second duration of the spell. This is about the only source that's a significant issue, but the issue is mostly because of the other effects of the spell (true damage DoT and reveal). It's also got a longer CD than most ults, so it too isn't much of an issue in most cases.

Overall, it's irritating, but from a balance perspective, I don't feel that it's all that much of an issue, except maybe on ARAM (where it is reduced healing on top of the reduced healing from allies).

I Main SwainAug 28, 20171 votes

my biggest problem is honestly the fact that it feels like riot is trying to push it onto important items like morello, so its essentially guaranteed to be in every game on at least 1 person, not to mention the fact that with executioners calling its stupid easy to get. imo grievous wounds should require an investment, it shouldnt just be this cheap accessory or be a nice add on to something you already have to get anyways. it makes it feel like crap to play healing based champs. tbh thats 90% of my complaint

SalronAug 26, 20173 votes

But then the shields would have to balanced around that item, instead of balancing them as is Shields have only become an issue since Riot introduced the "shielding/healing power" stat to support items

Some tuning needs to be done around that, perhaps a nerf to shield stacking in particular since thats where things get truly egregious

General Esdeath Aug 26, 20178 votes

I still don't get why AD champs can buy item 3123 for 800g and apply GW on any auto but mages have to get item 3165 for 2900g and it only applies at <35% HP on spells only.

I Main SwainAug 26, 20172 votes

imo grievous wounds shouldnt just be super easy to ruin someones day with either. as is with executioners you can just hit someone with it with any amount of hp and the gw stays for a long af time.

SpecterVonBarenAug 26, 20173 votes

GW should be on an active, not a passive, you should have to think about when you want to use it and the enemy should have a window when you can't apply it to them.

General Esdeath Aug 26, 20171 votes

Only reason I say no to this is because champs like Mordekaiser Vladimir Morgana Soraka Fiora Illaoi Kayn (as Rhaast) Nasus Swain have a constant source of healing. They don't really have windows (some do but their windows are for about 4 seconds and already the "weak time" for them).

I Main SwainAug 26, 20171 votes

what does that have anything to do with it? btw, of those most of them dont have a constant source of healing, they have windows. fiora's is only when she gets all 4 hits on her ult, morgana while she does have spell vamp has cooldowns on her abilities, all of them have windowed healing at specific times be it on certain abilities or for nasus on his auto attacks. honestly based on what your definition of constant healing is, literally anyone who heals has constant healing. besides, its not like gw is supposed to be a permanent debuff, its only meant to be for a brief time typically while youre fighting them. yes they can turn it back on but you shouldnt be able to make a champions core aspect that makes them strong, such as mundo, entirely negated just because you hit them with 1 aa when they started healing.

General Esdeath Aug 26, 20171 votes

Mordekaiser ult is a heal over the time it ticks Vladimir heals from his Q and ult Morgana passive Fiora passive Soraka Q W R Illaoi passive Nasus passive Swain ult Kayn Rhaast passive

I Main SwainAug 26, 20171 votes

youre naming healing abilities, not explaining how theyre constant and not windows. there is exactly 1 kind of constant healing and thats constant health regen. everything else is more or less windowed, even if it is relatively frequent or a heal over time.

General Esdeath Aug 27, 20171 votes

You said "they don't have constant healing" but I'm telling you where it comes from, and you can clearly see these aren't small windows on some.

I Main SwainAug 28, 20171 votes

only a few of those have the possibility of constant enough healing for their healing to be considered not windowed in any way (even though nasus is the only one of those who isnt), and even most of those are either smaller frequent heals, decent frequent heals on champs for whom thats their core identity, or a potentially sizable heal with a heavy cost/cooldown like swains ult. and even if you did consider them all to be "constant" heals, why would it matter? do you think grievous wounds should be this potentially permanent debuff? i dont see an issue with it being an active with a relatively short cd that lasts for somewhere in the 5-10 second range.

SpecterVonBarenAug 27, 20172 votes

Morde, Illaoi, Fiora and Swain have very clear windows when they can heal in their base kit. Swain's ult has a CD, Morde's W and ult are his only source of healing and his W is hardly a huge heal and his ult has a clear cd, most of his "sustain" is through his shield, and Illaoi's healing only really comes into play when she goes all in and needs it to survive being in the middle of a teamfight since she has no tank steroids. Fiora has extremely low flat healing outside of her ult, her big healing being on her ult means that there is a clear window when activating GW would be optimal.

Morganna's spellvamp exists yes, but don't try to bullshit this argument by making that out to be a big aspect of her kit, it can help her survive but comparing it to someone like Vlad is ridiculous, no one buys EC or Thornmail because Morgana is on the enemy team. There's a reason that Hourglass has always been such a core item on her and that's because she'd die instantly 9 times out of 10 if she just ran into the enemy team, her spellvamp doesn't save her from being burst down due to her long cd's. The same goes for Nasus, while he has lifesteal on his passive, the main thing that keeps him alive in a teamfight is the health on his ult and the tank items he buys, the lifesteal is mainly there to make his lanning phase a little easier.

Vlad's entire thing is supposed to be healing, everything else should be balanced around that but even then I think he's an aberation that should have been changed more significantly rather than removing an entire stat from items (Spellvamp).

Soraka is a monster and should be treated like old Poppy until they can rework her (again).

I Main SwainAug 28, 20171 votes

thank you this is exactly my point

GayFluffyUnicornAug 26, 20176 votes

Because morellos GW also applies for digustingly long 8 secs?

LauchmelderAug 26, 20173 votes

I'd rather have a short duration GW that applies on each skill than the current GW we have on Morellos.

When do mages primarily want GW? When laning against champions like Vlad or Swain.

On whom will they never proc GW on their own thanks to the 35% HP limitation? Vlad and Swain (and any other tank for that matter)

If I need GW as a mage I rather waste 800g on EC, it's how shit it is on Morellos.

The Yetii RiderAug 26, 20171 votes

Mages have Ignite. Mages can apply Grievous Wounds to multiple champions at a time. Mages can apply Grievous Wounds from much longer ranges than Executioners. Morellonomicon is good on every champion with AP ratios (that includes manaless champions) while Executioners has the opportunity cost of not being crit/AS/Lifesteal.

General Esdeath Aug 26, 20171 votes

Anyone can use ignite. item 3123 is based on physical damage, not AA, so yeah you can apply it to an entire team with a Darius Q, Gangplank E, Draven R, Irelia R, Garen E, Gnar R, Twitch R, etc. Not all mages can apply it at longer ranges. Are you trolling? Go build Morello on Mordekaiser and get back to me on that one. item 3123 builds into item 3033 applying the armor pen almost every adc needs in every game with a tank.

The Yetii RiderAug 26, 20171 votes

Mordekaiser is a juggernaut, not a mage.

Syndra has giant range on her E, Ziggs can hit champions from afar with Q/R, Ahri has a decent range on Q/E and can automatically throw out her W if she Rs close enough, Viktor can send his R chasing after you, Annie has a decent range and usually will Flash to engage, Veigar has long range, Anivia has a giant area of effect, Corki can fire missiles from across the lane, Taliyah Q fires several times and can proc Thunderlord's on its own, along with Morello.

Executioner's Calling is not built every game. Check the stats on that item and compare them to Morellonomicon. Morellonomicon is REQUIRED on mages for the CDR, AP and mana alone, all of which are fantastic stats to receive for the price and the item is incredibly slot efficient with all it offers.

Anyone can use Ignite. ADCs don't. They take Heal.

Most area of effect physical attacks are either melee range or have a giant cooldown like a global ultimate. Almost every mage has access to an AOE magic effect from mid to long range in their basic abilities with a less than 8 second cooldown, which is the total amount of uptime that Grievous Wounds will be up.

General Esdeath Aug 26, 20171 votes

Syndra also has a high CD on her E, Ziggs has to lane his skill shots, same with Ahri . Viktor ult gets slower if he's far away, meaning he needs to stay decently close or land his E. Veigar has delays and skillshots (except his ult which is an execute) Anivia also relies on burst, as opposed to consistent damage. Her ult can, but it eats her mana. Corki Taliyah need to land the skill shots. And don't forget, they also have to hit someone under 35% HP.

I didn't say EC was build, I said it can be used with the armor pen item built almost every game. ADC's can take ignite, especially with the new strat of supports taking heal. Not to mention they can get the cheaper EC for 800g.

The Yetii RiderAug 26, 20172 votes

The price of the item is irrelevant, marksmen are all about their two item power spike and their six item build. Mortal Reminder is often only useful against one, maybe two enemies on the enemy team because plenty of enemy champions will simply not build armor.

In comparison, Morellonomicon is always good, always rushed, gives the best stats, the two items are not and should not be equal.

General Esdeath Aug 26, 20171 votes

The price isn't the main point, the point is that the other 2 have a "builds into" option.

The Yetii RiderAug 27, 20171 votes

Mages don't need Grievous Wounds at the early stages of the game. This is an item you build first, you don't build Executioner's Calling first. Even against Soraka you would still get a BF Sword before you started your Mortal Reminder. You would never build Thornmail first either, you would want to finish Cinderhulk. Morellonomicon is the VERY FIRST item you build on the class that has the highest gold amount in the early game because minions come faster and you have incredibly easy CS. Morellonomicon is a very powerful, very good item. It does not need to be changed in any way, except MAYBE halving the duration of Grievous Wounds on Howling Abyss because 8 seconds is an eternity when you can't base.

General Esdeath Aug 27, 20171 votes

Against a Soraka I would rush EC unless I got a double kill and had 100g less than what I needed to get both items, then I'd get BF sword and back after 100g. Morello doesn't need a change I just think it needs a smaller GW component or a larger HP requirement for the GW to take effect.

Toru ItaiAug 26, 20171 votes

item 3075 should be the only item with grievous wounds.

General Esdeath Aug 26, 20171 votes

Terrible idea. Tanks can't do much vs champs like Vladimir which would mean nobody counters him except a snowballer like Riven

Toru ItaiAug 27, 20171 votes

Perfect!

THE RlVER KlNGAug 26, 20176 votes

You'd also have the adverse effect of completely screwing a champ like Tahm when you're just trying to nerf enchanters or whatever

SolarisCorvusAug 26, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xk7uVQyz,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-08-26T01:58:33.509+0000)

You'd also have the adverse effect of completely screwing a champ like Tahm when you're just trying to nerf enchanters or whatever

Yea if there ever was an item that reduced shields of broke them completely, riot would have to make it that this effect would only apply to shields given from outside sources. This way champs like rakan, malph and shen dont immediately contemplate suicide once that item is built.

LyingOnLineAug 26, 20172 votes

You know what there needs to be?

A shield drain item. Do more damage (or more instances of damage) or maybe even break a shield entirely, and get a portion of that shield in return!

Final Spark LuxAug 26, 20179 votes

It's bad enough we have to deal with people draintanking with one lifesteal item. I'd rather not give them a shield ontop of it

RozzetaAug 26, 20171 votes

Several years ago, people suggested that, if heals were potent due to health replenished being technically increased by armor and MR, then have heals effectivenes be reduced in amount equal to the average of those defenses. Of course, that's not applicable as of now, due to the complete clusterfuck that penetration is with the introduction of lethality.

Luckily, as shields are not permanent the same way healing is, then a more simple solution can be applied: Making shield not apply defense damage reduction at all until after the white extra health is removed.