Black Cleaver shouldn't trigger off of Physical DOT effects.

Bârd·Mar 19, 2019·2 votes·3,515 views

That way, Riot can make physical DOT effects and not need to balance them around being a spell that will stack BC fully by itself.

21 Comments

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20196 votes

if youre referring to darius passive and garens spin, then thats the entire point of the item.

the current cleaver was literally made for these champions. infact its actually too weak since they nerfed the arnor shred passive.

they should probably buff the rage passive in some form, if they dont want to increase the armor shred again. maybe the full 60 ms bonus could additionally trigger upon gaining 5 cleaver stacks on a target, and not just takedowns.

BârdMar 19, 20191 votes

The point of the item is to have bruisers shred through tanks (and each other) the further they get into a fight. That's fine. What's not fine is that, because Black Cleaver exists, Riot is extremely reluctant to add Physical DOT effects. Multi-hit abilities (Wukong Cyclone, Garen Judgement, MF Bullet Time) are fine and can keep using Cleaver as they do now. I'm talking specifically about things like Darius Hemorrhage.

DOT's are great in theory.

They let you give a champion solid damage output without giving them too much burst or spammability. Great.

The only problem is that Riot has ruined DOT effects in league.

Magic Damage DOT's are ruined by item 3151 , Physical Damage DOT's are ruined by item 3071 , and both are further made harder to balance by the existence of Aery. Because of those, they HAVE to be kept weak.

Not a fan of that.

Moody PMar 19, 20191 votes

BC isn't kept weak because its intended original audience uses it well lol

Darius losing bleed procs would basically turn him away from the item permanently

The thigh guyMar 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XiNYAq1v,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-19T13:49:20.221+0000)

BC isn't kept weak because its intended original audience uses it well lol

Darius losing bleed procs would basically turn him away from the item permanently

Black cleaver isn’t even that weak. Lol

OleandervineMar 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The point of the item is to have bruisers shred through tanks (and each other) the further they get into a fight. That's fine. What's not fine is that, because Black Cleaver exists, Riot is extremely reluctant to add Physical DOT effects. Multi-hit abilities (Wukong Cyclone, Garen Judgement, MF Bullet Time) are fine and can keep using Cleaver as they do now. I'm talking specifically about things like Darius Hemorrhage.

DOT's are great in theory.

They let you give a champion solid damage output without giving them too much burst or spammability. Great.

The only problem is that Riot has ruined DOT effects in league.

Magic Damage DOT's are ruined by , Physical Damage DOT's are ruined by , and both are further made harder to balance by the existence of Aery. Because of those, they HAVE to be kept weak.

Not a fan of that.

The thing is, Riot has PROVEN they understand how to functionally separate these effects from DoTs, most notably via Electrocute, so it's very possible for Riot to code things like Black Cleaver to trigger once per DoT instead of every time it deals damage. Things like poisons and such will NOT trigger Electrocute by themselves, so effects like Black Cleaver could easily be shifted to fit into this type of trigger.

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

The thing is, Riot has PROVEN they understand how to functionally separate these effects from DoTs, most notably via Electrocute, so it's very possible for Riot to code things like Black Cleaver to trigger once per DoT instead of every time it deals damage. Things like poisons and such will NOT trigger Electrocute by themselves, so effects like Black Cleaver could easily be shifted to fit into this type of trigger.

ok, lets say for a second they did what you propose.

who the fuck would buy this item if it only triggered once on a spell cast? even darius and garen go for trinity force over cleaver already since they nerfed the armor shred passive. if youd nerf this item in any shape or form, then nobody would touch it anymore.

who would this be made for? what reason would such an item have to exist in this game?

kingDeDeDariusMar 19, 20191 votes

I agree

OleandervineMar 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XiNYAq1v,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-19T16:09:59.945+0000)

ok, lets say for a second they did what you propose.

who the fuck would buy this item if it only triggered once on a spell cast? even darius and garen go for trinity force over cleaver already since they nerfed the armor shred passive. if youd nerf this item in any shape or form, then nobody would touch it anymore.

who would this be made for? what reason would such an item have to exist in this game?

The item would require you to actually continually damage the enemy with attacks, your rotation, etcetera, like everyone else who isn't Garen or Darius. It's not unheard of that champions should have to work to stack effects, and when an effect can lead to a hefty armor shred, I'm of the mindset that it shouldn't be something you earn by pressing one button.

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The item would require you to actually continually damage the enemy with attacks, your rotation, etcetera, like everyone else who isn't Garen or Darius. It's not unheard of that champions should have to work to stack effects, and when an effect can lead to a hefty armor shred, I'm of the mindset that it shouldn't be something you earn by pressing one button.

brother do you understand that literally nobody would buy such an item? there is no target audience for it.

it works on idividual instances of physical damage on purpose, so its exactly good on those champions. and even now, its not even good enough, considering that the champions the item is targeted at tend to avoid it when possible.

OleandervineMar 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XiNYAq1v,comment-id=000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-19T18:24:46.457+0000)

brother do you understand that literally nobody would buy such an item? there is no target audience for it.

I mean, if you claim as much. But I see the item on quite a lot of champions who don't have physical DOTs, so your intense support of this aspect of it's stacking isn't on the most solid ground.

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I mean, if you claim as much. But I see the item on quite a lot of champions who don't have physical DOTs, so your intense support of this aspect of it's stacking isn't on the most solid ground.

so you want to make the ad caster juggernaut focused item just trash on champions who are already bad and want to keep it the same on the few champions like, i dont know. olaf? kled? riven? who might pick it up?

which champions who arent relying on multi hits to stack cleaver but are buying the item are you talking about?

kingDeDeDariusMar 19, 20191 votes

Actually Lucian and MF ruined cleaver, and neither had a dot. It had nothing to do with Darius bleed

The bad YasuoMar 19, 20192 votes

They don't have DOT but bother of their ults stack if faster than a DOT ability. Each tick or wave in their ult will trigger the cleaver incredibly fast.

Warlord RhinarkMar 19, 20192 votes

This is assuming that the lack of physical DOTs in newer champions is in fact caused by them being able to stack Black Cleaver, instead of Riot just not making champions with physical DOTs because they don't want to.

iDarkWindMar 19, 20192 votes

As much you say that, it's quite ironic that item 3071 was never nerfed because of the intended users being strong with that item (AKA Darius and Garen for example).

Pierce The VealMar 19, 20191 votes

https://giphy.com/gifs/amnZC37fDEuoE/html5

The thigh guyMar 19, 20191 votes

Black cleaver should be removed from the game. (Unpopular opinion but eh)

Daddy AntsMar 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XiNYAq1v,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-03-19T09:38:28.968+0000)

Black cleaver should be removed from the game. (Unpopular opinion but eh)

Uhm.

No.

The thigh guyMar 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Uhm.

No.

Um yeah. It’s ruining an entire class. And it’s in every game by default almost.

kingDeDeDariusMar 19, 20191 votes

Lol for what reason? SoS, Death's Dance, Duskblafe, and I.E. first then if you wanna go this route

The thigh guyMar 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Lol for what reason? SoS, Death's Dance, Duskblafe, and I.E. first then if you wanna go this route

Making an entire class irrelevant isn’t a good enough reason? Also yeah. Duskblade and sos need to go as well. The others aren’t as bad because they take longer to get going and deaths dance actually makes you take more damage overall. Maybe throw ludens on the block as well, bs item that rewards you for missing skills.