It is simple Tanks need to be Tanks. This means they should do extremely low amounts of damage and be able to take a big beating while being able to disrupt the enemy with crowd control. So tanks need their damage to champions reduced and their health and resistances raised and their crowd control effects raised. Tanks are not supposed to win by themselves they need teammates, they are a team oriented role in video games.
Moody P6 votesTanks should do less percent damage in exchange for better survivability
Death by Glamour1 votes^this really
as I said in your thread, has to be a trade off for all the utility/damage soak they bring
Nyarlathοtep5 votesThey deal % dmg so that they can remain a threat to their enemy laners (usually other tanks or fighters) while dealing low dmg on squishy targets.
Ralanr3 votesIMO the problem with %health damage on tanks is when it’s used too often in their combo. Ornn is my biggest issue, as his primary damage is basically spamming his W at enemies. At least with Poppy she has to land a wall stun to guarantee both procs of her Q since a smart player will find ways to avoid the second proc. Imo, we should remove the %health damage on the first proc, and compensate by doubling the %health damage on the second proc so people don’t keep taking a % of their health automatically in every trade.
Sion’s W is the healthiest of tank %health damage as it has clear counterplay and can even be prevented from hitting people.
Frosted Tips1 votesI agree with what you are saying. I will try to simplify it. So %health damage should be way less reliable and reward good players that use it properly and have obvious counter play to it. Does that sound about right?
Ralanr2 votesBingo.
Frosted Tips1 votesThat is completely reasonable and I would be 100% for this as a way to change Tanks.
IMO the problem with %health damage on tanks is when it’s used too often in their combo.
But its not. Here are the tanks that can deal % hp dmg. Mini gnar (every 3rd hit on the same target) Gragas (5 sec cd) Maokai (11 sec cd) Ornn (17-9 sec cd) Sejuani Sion (11 sec cd) Zac (5 sec cd) Galio (11-8 sec cd) Poppy (8-4 sec cd) Shen (8-5 sec cd for 3 aa) And kench (28-16 sec cd)
Ignoring sej's (because its bound on her allies how fast she can apply her stun) about half of them have their dmg on a cd lower than 5 sec. The rest have to wait for a good amount of time in order to use them again. (yes i know all of them buy cdr. But in my opinion this a discussion for another thread)
MrFawknSunshine1 votesBut its not. Here are the tanks that can deal % hp dmg. Mini gnar (every 3rd hit on the same target) Gragas (5 sec cd) Maokai (11 sec cd) Ornn (17-9 sec cd) Sejuani Sion (11 sec cd) Zac (5 sec cd) Galio (11-8 sec cd) Poppy (8-4 sec cd) Shen (8-5 sec cd for 3 aa) And kench (28-16 sec cd)
Ignoring sej's (because its bound on her allies how fast she can apply her stun) about half of them have their dmg on a cd lower than 5 sec. The rest have to wait for a good amount of time in order to use them again. (yes i know all of them buy cdr. But in my opinion this a discussion for another thread)
well since maokai's % hp damage has been moved from W to E he cant target or use it reliably to do damage in all reality the changes to his E was to help his camp clear when he is a jungler. it does nothing for him in fighting for the most part
Moody P1 votes% damage isn't relevant enough in laning phase to be significant, and a tank's job isn't to continue to be a relevant damage threat to anyone in front of them. (Most tanks, anyway). Squishy champions should be the most at risk of eating a tank's rotation because they'll usually be the hardest for the tank to hit, and yet it's the champions who are guaranteed to have to brush up with them that will be taking the most flat damage, since fighters stack health and not resists.
Destello Azul4 voteshttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Leopard_2_A5_der_Bundeswehr.jpg This is a Modern Tank. A big vehicle with a lot of armor and fire power. Well, imo Riot follow the same rules, they think tanks must do a lot of damage, and resist a lot. So yeah, for Riot, Tanks are "Modern" Tanks.
Frosted Tips2 votesTanks in video games are defined differently than real life tanks. Real life tanks are more like Juggernauts.
Pika Fox3 votesAnd tanks in different genres of videogames are defined differently as well. Tanks in LoL literally cannot do little damage else youd have no reason to attack the tank.
Players arent dumb world bosses with enmity meters. They arent going to attack the big beefy thing doing 0 damage.
Frosted Tips1 votesAgain add more CC then they can't ignore them.
Pika Fox4 votesNo, you can. Why would you ever spend 10 seconds killing the guy with CC who will CC you anyway because you cant kill them fast over smacking the backline for 2 seconds to kill all the damage.
It doesnt matter how much utility you bring if everyone else is dead. The only reason people focus janna is because she dies instantly. Same with soraka.
Frosted Tips1 votesIf you don't either kill or disengage someone who has tons of CC than you will die to the rest of their team while the Tank has you consistently under a CC effect.
Pika Fox2 votesAnd what are people going to do; target the guy that takes 10+ seconds to kill that deals 0 damage and will be CCing you the entire time anyway because, again, it takes 10+s to kill, or target litterally anyone else?
Pika Fox3 votesSo what youre saying is.... Tanks need to be useless and unpickable? And that you have no idea what a tank is?
MrFawknSunshine2 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XgaVG5wj,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-08-27T15:06:37.090+0000)
So what youre saying is.... Tanks need to be useless and unpickable? And that you have no idea what a tank is?
the Op dont , they make these post over and over about tanks and how they should be balanced and has zero clue
Frosted Tips2 votesTanks need to absorb a lot of damage and be a disrupter with a lot of cc and should not do much damage. I'm suggesting to add more durability and more cc while taking away damage because Tanks are not supposed to do much damage.
MrFawknSunshine4 votesi guess you are downvoting me and pika fox cuz we are disagreeing and proving how youre wrong ?
Frosted Tips3 votesI'm downvoting you because you are adding nothing to the discussion and do not want to participate in a civil descussion. I have not downvoted Pika Fox because many people don't read the post and/or don't think about how I'm also suggesting buffs too.
MrFawknSunshine2 votesI'm downvoting you because you are adding nothing to the discussion and do not want to participate in a civil descussion. I have not downvoted Pika Fox because many people don't read the post and/or don't think about how I'm also suggesting buffs too.
no i asked for u to provide stats and names of champs that do too much damage as a tank and you didnt , you just downvoted
Pika Fox5 votesThen no one would ever attack the tank. It would make no sense to kill a massive, beefy target that takes forever to kill over literally any other target that dies faster. The reward for investment for attacking the tank jist isnt there.
MrFawknSunshine3 votesok so im gonna go through top lane (lane most native to tanks) via tier ranking according to lolalytics.com
TOP Sion 54% win rate 5.3 % pick rate 0.8% ban rate Jax 52.4 win rate 10% pick rate 17.8% ban rate Camilee 51.3 % win rate 5.7% pick rate 16.5 % ban rate Rengar 51.4% win rate 1.7% pick rate 6.5% ban rate Pantheon 52.8% win rate 3.0% pick rate 6.0% ban rate Talon 52.5% win rate 0.5% pick rate 12.4 % ban rate Donger 53.1 % win rate 1.0 % pick rate 1.0 % ban rate Zed 51.8% win rate 0.6 % pick rate 60.9% ban rate Darius 50.5 % win rate 10.2% pick rate 52.1% ban rate Riven 51.0% win rate 8.0% pick rate 2.2% ban rate Kled 53.2 % win rate 3.7% pick rate 1.9% ban rate Garen 53.7 % win rate 11.2 % pick rate 21.7% ban rate Karthus 53.3 % win rate 0.6% pick rate 0.4% ban rate Poppy 51.6% win rate 4.5% pick rate 1.5% ban rate
thats 14 champs there is two tanks listed
Sion and Poppy.
so plz tell me what tanks are broken doing too much damage?
Frosted Tips1 votesI am not talking about being too strong I am talking about being unhealthy. Being strong or being unhealthy are extremely different things. Win rates, Play rates, and Ban rates do not tell a whole story either but that doesn't relate to the post I was just being nice and letting you know.
Boatwhistle2 votesI agree to an extent. The problem with balancing tanks comes down to the way resource allocation is along with prioritization in team fights.
A non support tank at the very least needs effective wave clear damage to not get pushed under turret. This isn't as simple as have items that only dmg minions or have intentionally tanks champs deal more dmg to minions. For one is the items are really effective it will probably be bought by champs that already have effective wave clear for no other purpose then to insta-wave clear for pushing or make situations for the enemy that much more unfavorable. Giving intentionally tanky champs the bonus damage does the same thing allowing them to insta clear with few dmg items that would still be handy for them in fights.
Another issue isn't the damage a tank does over time but instead the damage they do relative to the rate they are damaged. It doesn't matter if the tank does very little damage over a long period of time, if the rate of damage beats the relative percentage they take then they are still going to be too strong ad favored thusly. Making the damage rate to low only makes their lane before items that much harder being bullied way more.
What league could do to satisfy the players desire is to make a tank that does damage to minions based on items how ever all AD and AP values are converted to HP or Resistances vs champions. Longer CC isn't a good idea as the long lengths that already exist are pretty devastating as it is. However having A passive that results in and additional 5.5% of CDR as additional CDR per level going beyond cap could achieve the same end while giving enemies a window early that closes in over the games duration: level 1 with 40% CDR= 42% CDR, at level 18 and 40% CDR would equal 80% CDR. With cosmic insight this would become 90% at level 18. The abilities, base dmg, and cc durations could be balanced to mid to late game. This would make for a champion that struggles in lane without to much to do about it. They want to pack on levels, CDR, and Tankiness as quickly as possible. When mid game hits this champion could still have an issue getting onto targets without help but when they get to enemies they would become a menace to everything they want to do. This champion could be really hard to get away from, get off someone, or kill conveniently enough under the context of a team fight. Even when they start becoming powerful in what they provide for their team their dmg could still be extraordinarily low being beaten by supports even. Pretty much if one catches you when its alone you having nothing to worry about at all at it will probably run out of mana before it can come close to killing you, if anything you will fear he is buying his allies time to come over and kill you. This champion could be skill oriented still so long as the cc effects depend on how you combo abilities which each individual ability providing only soft cc and various combos providing all kinds of different hard ccs. Q-slow W-root E-knockdown/disarm.
Q-W=stun Q-E=Knock up W-Q=displacement away W-E=displacement towards E-Q=Sleep E-W=Entangle
Q-W-E=longer stun duration Q-E-W= Knock up multiple targets W-Q-E=Displace way further W-E-Q= Pull in multiple targets E-Q-W= AOE sleep E-W-Q= Entangle for a longer duration
R could be and AOE from the champion that cements it as the ultimate undisputed cc specialist by interrupting all targetable enemies abilities and attacks instantly within an AOE range around this champion including Malphite R. This ability could be on a significantly long CD at the start but after some points and 90% cdr at level 18 and 45% cdr be up with considerable frequency enough to become one of the best late game abilities there is.
Well any way I trailed off the point. League has done a good job at inventive ways to deal dmg but has fallen short of ways to makes playing tanks feel good and rewarding without making their dmg excessive on top of everything else they have going for them.
Nyarlathοtep1 votesThat is hard to implement on a pvp game like lol. Tanks currently deal dmg (low compared to other classes) because there is no aggro here. They have to be a threat otherwise they would be ignored in teamfights. Not only that but, if a tank deals, as you call it, and extremely low amounts of dmg (again you cant just reduce more their dmg) then they wont be able to lane. In order for someone to lane he needs (or rather one of the things) to be able to damage his opponent. Even i that i adore and enjoy playing tanks, wont be able to play a tank if i deal non existent dmg.
You could argue that riot could for compensation buff their cc or utility, but yeah. Its riot we are talking about. There are only two things riot knows how to adjust. By buffing and nerfing dmg. Unfortunately riot lately has been a little to the buff side .
Frosted Tips1 votesThey should suffer in lane and need to be helped out by their team if the worry is wave clear then add extra damage to minions.
Nyarlathοtep3 votesImplying they arent having a hard time in lane (when they arent fighting something like riven). Send a tank (with an exception to rammus and malp) to face a darius, garen, fiora, urgot, renekton, camille, mundo, trundle, nasus, voli, and see how much fun he will have in the lane.
And no. Sending extra teammate just to waveclear is extremely stupid. And the one that will have most likely to go top (in addition to jungler) is the midlaner. Midlaners usually are either mages or assassins. If they are mages, the prefer to either level up as fast as possible or help bot. Assassin prefer to either keep their enemy laner in the ground through their snowball or help bot. No way they can go top to help their tank when he has fallen behind. Most midlaners also cant stand against something like garen or fiora.
Frosted Tips2 votesRiven is trash and unless you main her and can do all of her animation cancels consistently you will lose most lane. Mundo is a tank. Trundle, Darius, and Urgot were designed as tank counters so yes it should suck super bad to face them. Garen is overtuned.
You don't need help to farm just sit under turret and have the enemy always pushed and easy to get ganked. Also add bonus damage to minions if you are worried about losing wave clear like I said before.
Nyarlathοtep2 votesI was mostly implying that you buy armour early on and you render riven useless for a while.
Mundo is not a tank. Tanks bring durability and cc. Mundo brings durability and dmg.
And you need help to farm under turret since the enemy most like can turret dive you.
Frosted Tips1 votesIf Riven doesn't snowball tanks destroy her.
What is Mundo then? Can't be a Juggernaut too mobile the only other thing that durable is a tank.
How could the enemy dive you I said to also make tanks more durable and have more cc?
Nyarlathοtep3 votesTanks destroy her because she has no way to dmg them.
Mundo mobile??? I mean sure compared to darius he is. Compared to real mobile champs he isnt. He is a juggernaut.
How? Easy turrets deal low dmg, and the after mentioned picks have ways to ignore the resistances of tanks.
Frosted Tips2 votesDarius is a Juggernaut that is the amount of mobility Mundo should have if he is a Juggernaut.
I said add CC, Resistances, and Health that is more than enough to not get dove 1v1.
Nyarlathοtep1 votesDarius has no mobility whatsoever because he has a pull. Mundo has no such a thing. He has a single target body blocked slow. Nothing else. Mundo has speed buff in order to be able to maneuver around. Darius doesnt need such a thing because he has aoe and with his ulti strong cleaning capabilities.
MrFawknSunshine2 votesDarius has no mobility whatsoever because he has a pull. Mundo has no such a thing. He has a single target body blocked slow. Nothing else. Mundo has speed buff in order to be able to maneuver around. Darius doesnt need such a thing because he has aoe and with his ulti strong cleaning capabilities.
no matter what you say unless you agree with the OP mindset you will be downvoted by them
Frosted Tips1 votesNope I will not downvote what they said because I can see they are trying to be civil and that they have a little bit or validity in their statement so I responded to it with a counter argument.
MrFawknSunshine2 votesNope I will not downvote what they said because I can see they are trying to be civil and that they have a little bit or validity in their statement so I responded to it with a counter argument.
but u did downvote him and his comment is civil and all it does is disagree with your mindset
Frosted Tips1 votesNope someone else did, but keep whining.
Frosted Tips1 votesBesides his insane MS Mundo has built in tenacity and a huge Slow that can pretty much be infinitely applied that is more than enough for a Juggernaut.
MrFawknSunshine2 votesBesides his insane MS Mundo has built in tenacity and a huge Slow that can pretty much be infinitely applied that is more than enough for a Juggernaut.
MUNDO IS A JUGGERNAUT stop arguing he isnt. that is his classification
Done251 votesActually, I would argue than Mundo is a Fighter like Warwick, Nasus, and Trundle. Think about it. He's mostly single target dps with a good mix of physical and magic. This makes it really hard to imemize defence against him. Add in some sustain over time and he makes for a mean 1v1, rather than the 1v5 that Garen, Darius, and Illaoi are known for.
MrFawknSunshine3 votesActually, I would argue than Mundo is a Fighter like Warwick, Nasus, and Trundle. Think about it. He's mostly single target dps with a good mix of physical and magic. This makes it really hard to imemize defence against him. Add in some sustain over time and he makes for a mean 1v1, rather than the 1v5 that Garen, Darius, and Illaoi are known for.
nasus is a juggernaut too.
i understand what you are saying but the classification of juggernauts include darius, garen, skarner , mundo, nasus, illaoi, mord etc
Ralanr2 votesMundo is a juggernaut. His “mobility” is just movement speed, which generally doesn’t count in the mobility category (dashes and blinks do).
Frosted Tips1 votesBut when you get to those extreme MS numbers it starts to be recognized as mobility. Look at Jhin right now and Hecarim E and Rammus Q they break the norm because they are extreme cases and Mundo Ult is up there.
Ralanr2 votesNo.
Rammus, Hecarim, and Jhin are fast but they are not mobile.
As weird as it sounds, mobility is counted more by dashes and blinks than MS.
Pika Fox2 votesMundo is a fighter, not a tank.
Frosted Tips1 votesIf Mundo is to be a fighter than Riot needs to reduce the damage he can do as a full Tank.
Pika Fox2 votesOrrrrr you could get good?
