Can we please make Ahri's kit focus on landing charm again?

Ahri Body Pillow·Mar 29, 2017·18 votes·1,435 views

I don't understand what the issue was with requiring Ahri to land her charm to burst people. As far as I'm concerned, it added a bit more skill to her playstyle, making picking off the ADC in a teamfight much more skillful. As an Ahri main myself, I find that late game being full build I really only need R Q W to burst squishies, totally negating the need for my charm. In fact, I think Riot has taken every step possible to move her kit away from the "Kiss of Death" fantasy. They even made it so it didn't interrupt dashes. If I recall correctly, they said that it was "uhealthy" to have her whole kit revolve around hitting a single skillshot ( ). I don't remember exactly, so please don't quote me.

What are your thoughts?

33 Comments

Lucian WaifuMar 29, 20175 votes

It still is, without her hitting charm it is very hard for her to get a kill without help. She just has good tools to get into range to do it: Her ult, her Q if you have to, Flash, and Protobelt.

SuperMacNasty69Mar 29, 20171 votes

Honestly i just use charm as a kill secure. When in lane by 6 i know i can kill the enemy mid laner with a good rwq and ignite. Nd just to make it look like it took some skill throw out that e after they flashes

Asayake 5150glowMar 29, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZigZag N IT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXOXzK3m,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-03-29T20:56:10.628+0000)

Honestly i just use charm as a kill secure. When in lane by 6 i know i can kill the enemy mid laner with a good rwq and ignite. Nd just to make it look like it took some skill throw out that e after they flashes

Does that not feel like bullshit what

There's almost no counterplay to that.

Lucian WaifuMar 30, 20173 votes

No, he is playing her wrongly using charm as a kill secure but getting away with it because his opponents are playing badly enough to allow that to happen in the first place.

Lucian WaifuMar 29, 20175 votes

I play ziggs against Ahri often and never have a problem like that unless she roams and gets fed that way. I just bring exhaust and she is done for enough time for me to scare her off from trying more, killing her, or to get away from her burst. Even though Ahri is suppose to counter ziggs good positioning with ziggs beats Ahri pretty easily.

KeevalroyMar 29, 20175 votes

That would mean that Riot has to admit they were wrong for two entire seasons and revert the rework clearly causing issues. If they do anything, they'll hit everything but the problem (the Q speed) and do everything in their power to keep that movement speed buff in the game.

Yuzuki YukarinMar 30, 20174 votes

Yep, typical Rito right there. They've done exactly that to countless other champions already. Look at Lucian, "We're going to keep shaving off damage, ranges, scalings, yatta yatta, because we don't want to nerf the dash reset we just put on him, even though it's clearly the problem."

Rito is so fucking afraid of admitting failure, it becomes all the worse when they have to admit it after lying to themselves for literally years. They would rather repeatedly nerf around a problem until they run out of options. Then, when they finally address the issue directly as they should have in the first place, they refuse to revert any of the countless unjustified nerfs and the champ ends up OVERNERFED. It must have happened dozens of times already, Rito refuses to learn from their fucking mistakes.

GayFluffyUnicornMar 30, 20172 votes

You mean like ekko having way too much utility in his kit for an assassin and rito just keeps nerfing his numbers until his ratios are so busted he instadeletes anyone with lich bane xD

AhristocatsMar 29, 20175 votes

that makes me remember how they did the same with fizz ult damage amplification

TyrekGoldenspearMar 29, 20175 votes

My pillows can't make internet forums and talk to people... Where can I get one?

More to the point of your post, I haven't seen the "land charm to win" Ahri, but imo it seems to make her more skill-intensive to lock her damage behind a skillshot.

RákãñMar 30, 20173 votes

Well, they wanted to change her style into a mobile kite mage over a typical assassin. So basically a small rework to change her play style from deleting people to use mobility to dodge skills while attacking back in order to win fights. Basically for skill and outplay. Personally, I like the mobile kite mage playstyle over the assassin style myself.

Miku Hime samaMar 30, 20174 votes

Too bad it's less effective and apparently much less healthier overall. She went from being viable at all elos to only being decent in low elo. The rework turned her into just a mid-lane Garen.

RákãñMar 30, 20173 votes

I don't know what you talking about, she been in the LCS like every year if you look at all the LCS, and not just one region. Ahri been viable at all elos due to the mobility and cc she brings to the team.

And you down-voted my comment on why the change happen? You think I'm lying or what?

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-52-notes

"Fantastic Ms. Ahri's success as a support-killing, pick-making assassin has always been tied very closely with Deathfire Grasp. With the item gone, however, it became obvious that Ahri's unique role in the game was losing focus, so we set out with the goal of moving her back to her original vision as an ultra-mobile kite mage. Technical improvements and updates to Fox-Fire and Spirit Rush should make her feel smoother to play, while Orb of Deception's new mobility effect allows her to both outwit opponents in close duels or remain elusive as she repositions in a fight."

RákãñMar 30, 20174 votes

Pro players has been playing her. So where is you proof that she is only good in low elo?

2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKr-71DJbXo 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLoeByy5ylE 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjFDSlpTC4o 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeUkrzMYfn8

Emmy Cha0sMar 30, 20172 votes

Congratz, you posted videos. That's actually kinda sad and there are several problems with this:

Posting a single use in each year proves literally nothing more than that she was viable at at least one point within an entire 12 months. Season 3, Ahri was broken up through Worlds and then got gutted afterwards. She wasn't picked again until multiple QoL buffs in season 4. The removal of Charm Amp in season 5 had no impact on tank-utility Ahri, which is the style Froggen played her as & thusly he would continue playing her exactly that way regardless. Hell, what do I even need to say about season 6 other than it's TWELVE WHOLE MONTHS LONG. That's a very long time for any team to play her at least once and literally all you provided was one instance each. That's literally all I had to say about any one of those seasons, but I felt like adding more context anyways.

Heck, a champ doesn't even have to viable to be picked at least once. Betsy made the mistake of picking Sona and ended 0-8-3 as a result. Ahri at least is a safe pick and won't intentionally feed like when picking Sona. That alone makes it easier for her team to have at least a decent shot at winning.

RákãñMar 30, 20171 votes

I just did each year just to show that she was in it. Its not hard to find videos. All I did was google search Ahri in LCS and found these and just randomly picked a few. Its not like these are the only videos existed in each year. Things rise and go, but she still still played at all elos unlike the statement "only being decent in low elo" which I was referring to.

Another thing your counter argument is with the Sona pick is just plain stupid. You can take any champs single losing score and call them terrible. Ahri in the video's I shown did quite pretty good regardless the 2014 one I posted which was a lost. You could take that single score and call her terrible while ignoring everything else. And I asked for proof on why she is terrible in high elo and you give me a very poor excuse.

Sure, not feeding will help, but what makes a decent shot at winning is making successful plays. Sure, you can go 12-0 in a game and lose. You lose because you lacked the ability to make plays that actually make a turning point in the game. You're not going to win if you just stand next to your tower and never push or group.

SalronMar 30, 20173 votes

That gives her a very binary playstyle though

Her kill pattern would then be Hit Charm = Possible kill Miss Charm = Guaranteed not to kill

Do you want this

Miku Hime samaMar 30, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXOXzK3m,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-03-30T06:19:39.276+0000)

Do you want this

Yes.

She was a balanced champion with this on her kit for a very long time. She was competitively viable with this. She has BARELY been picked by pros with her current kit, it took every other mid laner getting nerfed for her to be played even once.

How much more inherent proof do you need to the facts that A) her current kit is a failure and B) her previous iteration was a success?

SalronMar 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXOXzK3m,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-03-30T06:41:36.794+0000)

Yes.

She was a balanced champion with this on her kit for a very long time. She was competitively viable with this. She has BARELY been picked by pros with her current kit, it took every other mid laner getting nerfed for her to be played even once.

How much more inherent proof do you need to the facts that A) her current kit is a failure and B) her previous iteration was a success?

How about the fact that she functioned well before getting the damage amp on her E to begin with? It's not like she always had it

The only real problem with her current kit that wasn't present in previous iterations was Q's MS Don't act as if making her reliant on landing E is the only available solution

Miku Hime samaMar 30, 20174 votes

How about the fact that she was nerfed into the ground because she was overpowered without the skillfloor that Charm-amp gave her? She was left unplayable for a long time, until she got the amp to allow her to be conditionally strong. Enough so that she was actually viable without bronze-stomping low elo due to said skillfloor.

The fact Rito went back on a mechanic that CLEARLY made her a healthy character, just proves Rito's current staff are stupider and less-qualified than their old employees which have probably been "promoted" out of gameplay into other divisions. Or quit, like Shurelia did, for various reasons.

Rock MDMar 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXOXzK3m,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-30T06:56:15.293+0000)

How about the fact that she was nerfed into the ground because she was overpowered without the skillfloor that Charm-amp gave her? She was left unplayable for a long time, until she got the amp to allow her to be conditionally strong. Enough so that she was actually viable without bronze-stomping low elo due to said skillfloor.

The fact Rito went back on a mechanic that CLEARLY made her a healthy character, just proves Rito's current staff are stupider and less-qualified than their old employees which have probably been "promoted" out of gameplay into other divisions. Or quit, like Shurelia did, for various reasons.

uh...? She got the charm changes at the same time she was nerfed, and she wasn't unplayable. She was at a 5% pickrate and a 49% winrate, and that same season I went from Silver to Diamond playing Ahri.

I can tell you from experience she wasn't unviable.

BisaknospMar 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Body Pillow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXOXzK3m,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-29T20:26:16.542+0000)

it was "uhealthy" to have her whole kit revolve around hitting a single skillshot

ahhh missed charm now i have to wait 7 seconds to be useful again and maybe kill someone

100% not especially with edge of night around it was a cool fantasy but if she loses damage somewhere else i think it wouldnt be worth it

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 30, 20172 votes

I found the argument to be hilarious. I'm a Lux main and her entire kit is just based on hitting Q. But apparently Ahri's kit being based on E isn't healthy?

SuperMacNasty69Mar 29, 20171 votes

Ahri's whole kit is just highly unbalanced. Dash, hard cc, movement speed, range, healing, lock on, true damage. Even if they moved her back to her old kit (20% increased damage when charmed, increased healing, increased ult range, decreased w damage) she would still be able to burst any adc or mid lane in a good full combo even without the 20% increased damage or the true damage. She's just a bitch and thats why i love her. Hahaha talking about being a bitch bounty hunter on a 8/0 ahri by 12 mins is extreme damage Oh and remember the days of the DFG? Ahri used to melt 4k hp tanks in one e, dfg, rwq burst. So in reality ahri is good where she is. Ya she is a bit over powered right now but she always has been. She a mobile assassin mage

ArakadiaMar 30, 20175 votes

You say lock on like her entire kit is lock on.

GayFluffyUnicornMar 30, 20171 votes

Well half her kit. And her Q and E are basically lock on as well thanks to her ult.

ArakadiaMar 30, 20171 votes

Yep. Illaoi's entire kit is basically all lock on because she doesn't even need to aim her tentacles and she's in melee range or very close up.

ArakadiaMar 30, 20171 votes

They didn't like the Kiss of Death because it felt similar to a Blitz E, if it hits once your screwed. Too much power was put into her E i guess.

Yuzuki YukarinMar 30, 20174 votes

Yet they thought it was A-Ok for Fizz to have it. They literally ripped it off of Ahri and handed it over to Fizz all in the same patch. That inherently disproves your hypothesis.

ArakadiaMar 30, 20171 votes

It doesn't disprove my hypothesis, your just not thinking about other possibilities.

First, Fizz's ult is an ULT. Not a basic ability.

Second, Fizz's ult knockup is delayed.

And third, Ahri is ranged, so her having a blitzcrank-hook-esque type of "death sentence" ability is alot more cancerous because she can do it from afar.

Ahri is so different from Fizz, their not comparable here. And her charm is excessively different from Fizz's. They just implemented the "Kiss of Death" type of mechanic into Fizz's ult, in a healthier way.

The DeckownerMar 30, 20171 votes

IIRC they made Ahri E not inturrupt dashes because the coding can only make it stop some and not all dashes.

BLACK REALM GODMar 30, 20171 votes

honestly i wish they'd focus her kit more on sidestepping skillshots and counter attacking. her Q grants movement speed, but personally i think it would be awesome to see ahri blink or dash in the direction of the cursor and then send out a shorter ranged version of her current spells perpendicular from her dashes start point based on which way she was facing when she used her ability.

so just to be clear all of her abilities essentially grant her the dash that she gets from her R without the foxfires except her foxfires.

they could even just swap her ultimate (without the fox fires) with her charm. that way having her kit be based on the kiss of death wouldnt be so bad.

then they'd just need to put her dash on an ammo count timer.