Mana Items Are At There Worst When You Want Them The Most

Cosnirak·Apr 19, 2015·32 votes·2,999 views

All the % Base Mana Regen items are at their worst on champions with bad mana regen and at lower lvls where mana regen is worse. Just think about that for a moment...

Now can we get more real flat regen options again please? Even d-ring, the mana font passive, and 3 points in meditation don't keep me from running out of mana very easily despite trying to conserve it very hard. Meanwhile manaless champions spam away as if the world will end if they stop hitting Q...

58 Comments

qetzelApr 19, 201516 votes

I think they want to have these things as gates throughout the game, or at least throughout the laning phase. You shouldn't just be able to buy an item to completely remove a weakness.

SolaxoApr 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I think they want to have these things as gates throughout the game, or at least throughout the laning phase. You shouldn't just be able to buy an item to completely remove a weakness.

What's the problem really? It should be like this: You buy mana regen but you have weaker spells, or you buy ap/ad but have weaker mana regen

Silents429Apr 19, 201510 votes

Because 1 mana item before made people even forget about dealing with mana. Now we have to actually try not wasting spells.

Chaotic ReksApr 19, 201514 votes

meanwhile Katarina Zed get to spam regardless

BakedLotionApr 19, 201521 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XUg6HRj4,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-19T19:51:26.135+0000)

meanwhile get to spam regardless

And do more damage with their spells than people who use mana for it.

SammystormApr 21, 20151 votes

and have 0 utility.

Only Play DariusApr 22, 20151 votes

Zed's death mark can be useful for blowing up a fed person on the enemy team. Even if he dies, his team can pile on them and the mark can cause insane damage.

SammystormApr 22, 20151 votes

Death mark isn't really utility. It is used to add more damage. The reason champs with mana have high cd's is usually because it provides some form of utility and usually AoE to boot. It is very rare for a champion that has no mana and low cd's to have utility attached to their kit anywhere but their ult.

junglerboy16Apr 20, 20151 votes

That's a problem with those resourceless champions. Mana users should be gated early by their costs, and then very little late game, it is the power curve that their resource type was designed for. No resource champs/energy users are supposed to be stronger in the early game (Zed actually is, he kind of falls off late game) and then not really gain much improved spammability like a mana user does.

I'm not saying that they fit that scaling yet, but that is still how they are supposed to work.

CosnirakApr 20, 20152 votes

Spending 3 mastery points, starting d-ring, AND buying a chalice should let me cast half as often on Lux as a Zed can who also has a lower base cd.... shouldn't it? Why is that after I buy an Athene's I still oom stupid easy if I don't get an assist or kill despite the recent buff? There's no viable item build that includes multiple mana regen items (excluding d-rings) except the RoA + Archangel's Staff build which is only good on 2-3 champions and takes a very long time to get, meanwhile leaving you sucky.

The key is that it isn't just a weakness, it's an ANNOYANCE. Why play champions with mana issues when you can just play ones that don't use mana at all? Or even just ones with better mana (like Ahri or Xerath)... Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think triple d-ring + lucidity boots are the intended best early game build on Morgana even when you're ahead.

PartholonianApr 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There's no viable item build that includes multiple mana regen items (excluding d-rings) except the RoA + Archangel's Staff build which is only good on 2-3 champions and takes a very long time to get, meanwhile leaving you sucky.

That isn't a multiple mana regen item build either, ROA only gives max mana. It's built for the way the double max mana interacts with AA's passive (and kits like Ryze, which is why he's one of the main people who does use it).

Of course, by the time your ROA hits full stacks, you probably forget that mana exists anyway, because of your level. Level is the only real solution to mana problems, and it can't be obtained in the early game at any price.

There are some supports who get some mana regen from their support item and can also build a regular item with mana regen such as Mikael's, though.

CosnirakApr 21, 20151 votes

I know all that. That was my point. :p But thank you anyways.

LegacianApr 19, 20153 votes

I agree. It's like what they've done with health regen items as well. If the champion doesn't have a good base stat to begin with, it barely helps at all. It takes away variation and it lessens our ability to play champions the way we like to play them. The change from a # to % of your own base stat could've been done better, and should be looked at in perspective for all champions, not just the ones who already have fairly decent stats in those fields.

ForPortalApr 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I agree. It's like what they've done with health regen items as well.

AKA "Screw you, Soraka." Worst health regen in the game and it's on a champion with a %max health cost.

Silents429Apr 19, 20153 votes

On what champion exactly? I have yet to have any legit mana problems. Surprisingly less now that I was forced to conserve mana better.

CosnirakApr 20, 20152 votes

Lux, Ziggs, Morgana, Kayle, Ryze, a few I'm forgetting cause I don't own them, and like 30-40 champions that don't have it THAT bad but still have more issues than is reasonable early on (like Graves or Sion).

Silents429Apr 20, 20151 votes

Quite the blanket sweep.

Mana isn't really an issue. Small handful of champions have stupid mana costs like Lux E being 130 mana??

But it isn't hard to keep up on mana and the only people who really did complain before just wanted a buff to item 3174 which happened.

CosnirakApr 21, 20151 votes

It was a very minor buff (to the % of missing mana part) and doesn't solve the early game issues. One of the problems with chalice is that playing conservatively with your mana makes it worse, but the extra regen from being low on mana isn't enough to let you spam either. If you try to hover around 30-50% mana you still don't have enough to cast everything you want when you or your opponent goes for a kill. If you stay above that you aren't regening enough to notice much of a difference early on, especially when it's still just chalice and not a full Athene's.

The best thing about Athene's (in regards to mana) is the 30% regened from a kill or assist. But that leaves it feeling like a high risk/high reward item because if you fail to get an assist or kill but you tried you're typically left running away preying you get back enough mana for one more cast to save your ass as you run for the hills.

Silents429Apr 21, 20151 votes

But you aren't suppose to be able to spam your abilities. And while I think the idea of regen missing mana probably isn't best for most mages it works great on champions like Maokai and Swain who do expend a lot of there mana pool over time and heavily benefit from missing mana. The item serves its purpose well. I don't any risk or reward play is involved with its other passive, It is more for team fights or giving a mage some mana in case of trying to escape after a fight.

Keep in mind 100% base mana regen is still quite a bit. Nothing crazy but it keeps the mana going and as long as you are hitting something I have never really had problems with it. And this is coming from someone who mains champions with supposed mana issues. Yorick Lux

The most I have witnessed is people complained about mana but as time went on more people noticed it wasn't that bad and have readopted there playstyle to solve it. I found myself far more conserving and thinking when it came to the use of my abilities, and while the Athenes still leaves you the option of spamming abilities in reasonable time frames, it isn't nearly as bad as before where the mana gate was gone completely. And now with my new found power of conservation I stopped rushing mana regen on my mages and went for Zhonya or something else.

CosnirakApr 21, 20151 votes

Why can so many champions spam their abilities but a few can't? The idea is that they have power elsewhere right? But I find that just isn't the case. You know what people do on mana issue champions? They back more often.

I get that chalice's missing mana regen might be good on some champions, but there are only so many mana item options, and not one of them is what the champions I'm concerned about want.

100% base mana regen is actually quite shitty for any champion who naturally has mana issues. Later in the game it's noticeable but early on it's barely anything.

If you have to change your style to be very conservative with mana in order to have enough then THAT is a cost. So many other champions don't have to do that. Xerath, Veigar, Lissandra, and Swain have mana passives. Azir, Ahri, Kassadin, and LeBlanc simply have lower cost or free spells or ones that GIVE mana. A number of champions get to reasonably start with a flask.

I think another problem is the blue buff. If for any reason you don't get it or lose it on the mana issue champions then you lose SOOOOO much. Getting blue buff regularly is something the mana champions are balanced around partly, it's expected. And so when that fails to happen you get wrecked hard.

I find that if my laning opponent plays passively I can have enough mana on any champion. But when they're very aggressive I can't. Having to cast your shield on Lux/Morgana/Karma or your E on Ziggs once or twice to deal with the enemy often means now you should back because you have no mana to farm or fight now. Part of this issue is with d-ring. If on Morgana I W and kill 4 minions with it I get 16 mana. If I W and kill 1 minion and harass my opponent a lot I get 4. Add in a Black Shield cast and using W like that again and now I can't cast.

Silents429Apr 21, 20151 votes

Why can so many champions spam their abilities but a few can't? The idea is that they have power elsewhere right? But I find that just isn't the case. You know what people do on mana issue champions? They back more often.

I have yet to ever witness someone mid go back from being OOM ever this season.

I get that chalice's missing mana regen might be good on some champions, but there are only so many mana item options, and not one of them is what the champions I'm concerned about want.

100% base mana regen is actually quite shitty for any champion who naturally has mana issues. Later in the game it's noticeable but early on it's barely anything.

Because it isn't suppose to be that helpful early on. Mana is a gate for most everyone in the game the point is they don't remove that gate.

If you have to change your style to be very conservative with mana in order to have enough then THAT is a cost. So many other champions don't have to do that. Xerath, Veigar, Lissandra, and Swain have mana passives. Azir, Ahri, Kassadin, and LeBlanc simply have lower cost or free spells or ones that GIVE mana. A number of champions get to reasonably start with a flask.

No if you have to adjust your play style to what they changed the mana to cause then you are a decent player adapting to changes. I already admitted we have a small handful of champions with retarded mana costs like Lux E being 130 mana (more then peoples ults) It is a good cause to not let mages be spam happy with abilities and stay in lane forever with items like item 3010 keeping them sustained.

I think another problem is the blue buff. If for any reason you don't get it or lose it on the mana issue champions then you lose SOOOOO much. Getting blue buff regularly is something the mana champions are balanced around partly, it's expected. And so when that fails to happen you get wrecked hard.

I main jungle. Don't even pretend we are expected to hand you the blue buff, no one is balanced around us handing you blue. Unless your enemy is getting a constant blue buff your lack of isn't going to cause you get wrecked unless your enemy is simply better.

Were in a current place right now where they did a change that affected nearly every champion, and some tweaks. But by no means were the mana changes bad for the game.

CosnirakApr 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I have yet to ever witness someone mid go back from being OOM ever this season.

Most people don't play the champions with bad mana, because they have such bad mana... Also do you sit there and watch them constantly?

Because it isn't suppose to be that helpful early on. Mana is a gate for most everyone in the game the point is they don't remove that gate.

Except it's only a significant gate for a few. For others it means you can't just spam stupidly but honestly cooldowns do half that work or more anyways.

No if you have to adjust your play style to what they changed the mana to cause then you are a decent player adapting to changes. I already admitted we have a small handful of champions with retarded mana costs like Lux E being 130 mana (more then peoples ults) It is a good cause to not let mages be spam happy with abilities and stay in lane forever with items like keeping them sustained.

I never said all mana champions have mana issues. Only a few really do. But mana items still suck at helping with mana. By the time they do much you don't need them for mana except in a couple instances or they just let you spam wildly despite that not actually being good.

I main jungle. Don't even pretend we are expected to hand you the blue buff, no one is balanced around us handing you blue. Unless your enemy is getting a constant blue buff your lack of isn't going to cause you get wrecked unless your enemy is simply better.

It's not about getting wrecked 1v1 in lane. It's about being unable to fight AND cs. You can do one but not both without blue on the champions with mana issues. Want me to come help do dragon? Sorry my opponent has blue and I don't and I just cast one spell on that last minion wave, I can't do anything meaningful at drag and if a fight happens I'm fodder.

Were in a current place right now where they did a change that affected nearly every champion, and some tweaks. But by no means were the mana changes bad for the game.

Bad overall? Probably not. Bad for the few champions with real mana issues now? Absofuckinglutely. Lets be honest, they got sick of Ziggs making games take 10 minutes longer. That's a fine goal. They also made life far more annoying for a few other champions in the process. :(

Silents429Apr 21, 20151 votes

Most people don't play the champions with bad mana, because they have such bad mana... Also do you sit there and watch them constantly?

As a jungle main watching the entire game is second nature, so yes.

And Lux, Ziggs, Morgana, Kayle, Ryze, Well Ziggs sees plenty of play still. But the rest? What do they all have in common? They are outdated and useless in comparison to the better mages we have. It is farfetched to think they see less play based on the fact they have a little mana problems in the early game.

I never said all mana champions have mana issues. Only a few really do. But mana items still suck at helping with mana. By the time they do much you don't need them for mana except in a couple instances or they just let you spam wildly despite that not actually being good.

See now you are jumping all over the place here on what the mana item does. It either allows spamming or doesn't. It is either useless early or great late. It is weak on most or strong on few.

From what I gather you think it is bad early on a small few champions, but at the same time tell me it sucks late game despite allowing you to spam wildly? I hope you see the contradiction here.

The mana items used to be bought early last season and make people forget about mana. Now. If someone rushes it, you will get some mana regen but the item won't be as effective until late game where your mage should be able to spam abilities, which they can do now. Even the ones you mentioned.

It's not about getting wrecked 1v1 in lane. It's about being unable to fight AND cs. You can do one but not both without blue on the champions with mana issues. Want me to come help do dragon? Sorry my opponent has blue and I don't and I just cast one spell on that last minion wave, I can't do anything meaningful at drag and if a fight happens I'm fodder.

If you can't poke and CS then this is a mechanic failure on your end and not the champions. Not all champions are going to be great at this and they rightfully shouldn't or they would all feel the same. A late game Ryze is a monster to deal with, and I am confused why you would think he has mana items when his core items include mana stacking. Or Lux while having an insane cost on some abilities has an easier time last hitting with her auto attack then most mages. Or Morgana and her puddle that clears waves pretty well when a few ranks are put into it.

Bad overall? Probably not. Bad for the few champions with real mana issues now? Absofuckinglutely. Lets be honest, they got sick of Ziggs making games take 10 minutes longer. That's a fine goal. They also made life far more annoying for a few other champions in the process. :(

Very select few champions have issues, and mana issues with those champions is just 1 of the list of other issues they currently have. I do recall Ziggs getting a buff recently.

But I question, if you were to change the Athenes what are you proposing that would be balanced and not allow champions to go spam happy and forget about mana?

CosnirakApr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As a jungle main watching the entire game is second nature, so yes.

You do not constantly watch the mid laners as they back, don't lie.

And Lux, Ziggs, Morgana, Kayle, Ryze, Well Ziggs sees plenty of play still. But the rest? What do they all have in common? They are outdated and useless in comparison to the better mages we have. It is farfetched to think they see less play based on the fact they have a little mana problems in the early game.

Those ones you listed are most of the list of champions that have big mana issues (Kayle scales out of it fast though). And they're the ones that don't see much play (except Morg), partly due to mana issues. Morg's mana is probably the best out of those mana wise and does well with d-rings because CSing is easy on her and with the recent buff Ziggs is starting to show up a little. I don't know what supposedly outdated champions you're talking about.

See now you are jumping all over the place here on what the mana item does. It either allows spamming or doesn't. It is either useless early or great late. It is weak on most or strong on few.

I don't know where you're getting confused. Late game your mana gets so good on its own that mana items mostly just let you cast needlessly extra. Early on they do so little the mana parts of them are often useless (remember, just talking about % of base mana regen items in this regard). D-rings depends somewhat on the champion but are generally the best mana item early because of how they work, but don't solve mana issues on the champions with the worst mana problems.

From what I gather you think it is bad early on a small few champions, but at the same time tell me it sucks late game despite allowing you to spam wildly? I hope you see the contradiction here.

As I said earlier it does in fact do both. There's no contradiction there. The problems is that spamming wildly is powerful early on and mostly a waste later on. Early you are mostly CSing with spells that don't 1 shot minions and fighting 1 opponent (or 2 sometimes), this makes being able to spam wildly powerful. Later you have the mana to cast on cd in most fights without mana items because fights are much shorter than say harassing 1 person for 4 minion waves in a row. Also you outscale minions so hard that killing them is often trivial.

The mana items used to be bought early last season and make people forget about mana. Now. If someone rushes it, you will get some mana regen but the item won't be as effective until late game where your mage should be able to spam abilities, which they can do now. Even the ones you mentioned.

I think the "forget about it" part of last season is vastly overstated. Did some have it too easy? Sure. But yeah, still exaggeration there. The main reason even the worst mana problematic champions can spam in the late game is that their spell they spam stops going up in cost after it's maxed but their mana pool and base regen keep increasing with level. Also you can always OOM as Lux if you try, and swiftly. It's not hard. :p

If you can't poke and CS then this is a mechanic failure on your end and not the champions. Not all champions are going to be great at this and they rightfully shouldn't or they would all feel the same. A late game Ryze is a monster to deal with, and I am confused why you would think he has mana items when his core items include mana stacking. Or Lux while having an insane cost on some abilities has an easier time last hitting with her auto attack then most mages. Or Morgana and her puddle that clears waves pretty well when a few ranks are put into it.

It's my mechanics failure when just using 1 spell per wave on minions OOMs me so I can't use any mana to harass the opponent? Right.... The problem is that having mana issues is VERY frustrating. And VERY unnecessary. It makes that part of the game very boring or worse, anger inducing. Just use higher base cds on the key spells but have them scale to their current cds with ranks. It's not hard.

Also Lux does not have an easier time last hitting with autos lol. I wish. She has the most infuriating last hitting early game of any champion in the game by far. I could write an essay on it. Just play her and try it out. See how "easy" it is when your E makes all 3 caster minions one shottable by your AAs but minions steal 2 of those before you can get your second AA off. Oh do that while your guys are busy with their melee minions? Sure lose all melee minoin CS as you cast, pop, then AA 3 times on the casters. Oh it's so early they don't die that fast? Sorry you have to AA the casters 2-3 times despite her E + passive that early in the game. Yeah it's awful.

Very select few champions have issues, and mana issues with those champions is just 1 of the list of other issues they currently have. I do recall Ziggs getting a buff recently.

Yeah you clearly don't play the champions in question at all. Thanks for assuming you know their issue isn't an issue despite that.

But I question, if you were to change the Athenes what are you proposing that would be balanced and not allow champions to go spam happy and forget about mana?

A flat mana regen component like d-ring. Your spells cost more as you level so they outscale it which keeps you from getting spammy as your cds go down and base mana regen goes up. It also doesn't compound with the natural scaling of your base mana regen, further ensuring this. Just don't make them too strong. Also change d-ring to not give mana per unit killed and make it just a little more flat regen. Compounding punishments on people's mana for interacting with their lane opponent is not fun.

Silents429Apr 22, 20151 votes

You do not constantly watch the mid laners as they back, don't lie.

It is a spinning icon on the minimap. It isn't difficult to look off to my right at the team mate icons or blink at the mid lane quickly while farming camps.

Those ones you listed are most of the list of champions that have big mana issues (Kayle scales out of it fast though). And they're the ones that don't see much play (except Morg), partly due to mana issues. Morg's mana is probably the best out of those mana wise and does well with d-rings because CSing is easy on her and with the recent buff Ziggs is starting to show up a little. I don't know what supposedly outdated champions you're talking about.

Those champions are quoted from what you gave to me. Those champions are old. I don't know if you are actually going to attempt to tell me otherwise but feel free to check the release dates on all of them? And again, outdated kits that are replaced by better champions. They are not choosen because of mana or a hell of a lot of champions wouldn't be picked if we based them off of having mana problems.

I don't understand people who are dead set on using abilities to farm lane constantly, It really isn't THAT hard to last hit on a lot of the mages. You have abilities yes but constantly tossing them out to farm is not how to do it. You can farm with with auto attacks and poke with abilities, I do it all the time, and my enemy laner does it to me.

Mana problems as said many times are a way of gating. You think running out of mana is boring? I assure you it would be far worse if we only let cooldowns be out gates for everyone instead of resources. I assure you that going against harassing enemy laners that you can't wait for them to run out of mana. You can think it is boring, frustrating or somehow unneeded but you couldn't be any further from the truth. The game loses a chunk of strategy when you try taking out resource management, and taking out more strategy is just going to give the game a stale feeling.

Yeah you clearly don't play the champions in question at all. Thanks for assuming you know their issue isn't an issue despite that.

Of the champion list you gave me I have played them all thoroughly except Ziggs. I know fully well what they are good and bad at. I can assure you that mana was far down on the list of things I cared about when playing any of them.

As much as you may dislike how it works currently we have no real way of fixing early game mana without causing problems. We are better of fixing the handful of champions that already needed a little help in some areas.

CosnirakApr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It is a spinning icon on the minimap. It isn't difficult to look off to my right at the team mate icons or blink at the mid lane quickly while farming camps.

You don't monitor the cause of most recalls (nor can you even always be sure of WHY) of your own mid laner, let alone both. Nor did I say it was the reason most of the time.

Those champions are quoted from what you gave to me. Those champions are old. I don't know if you are actually going to attempt to tell me otherwise but feel free to check the release dates on all of them? And again, outdated kits that are replaced by better champions. They are not choosen because of mana or a hell of a lot of champions wouldn't be picked if we based them off of having mana problems.

Most champions aren't chosen based on how new their kits are. I'd have to look it up to be 100% sure but I know that in all the streams I watch and games I play the champions with the worst mana are picked considerably less than those without such issues. There are of course other factors that decide which champions get played the most as well though, obviously.

I don't understand people who are dead set on using abilities to farm lane constantly, It really isn't THAT hard to last hit on a lot of the mages. You have abilities yes but constantly tossing them out to farm is not how to do it. You can farm with with auto attacks and poke with abilities, I do it all the time, and my enemy laner does it to me.

The problem champions OOM plenty fast enough from poking alone. I don't constantly use abilities to farm, and neither does anyone remotely decent at the game. But that's a long ways off from never using them to farm. Most mages are actually pretty bad at CSing with just AAs, especially under turret, which is where you'll end up if you never use your spells on minions. The best is when you can easily poke and farm with the same cast, as I so often do with Morgana and Ziggs with ease.

Mana problems as said many times are a way of gating. You think running out of mana is boring? I assure you it would be far worse if we only let cooldowns be out gates for everyone instead of resources. I assure you that going against harassing enemy laners that you can't wait for them to run out of mana. You can think it is boring, frustrating or somehow unneeded but you couldn't be any further from the truth. The game loses a chunk of strategy when you try taking out resource management, and taking out more strategy is just going to give the game a stale feeling.

And yet there are a bunch of champions with no resource or a resource that's far less gating than mana............ Also I never suggested removing all mana. I'm well aware of what it does for the game that's good. I'm suggesting we make it BETTER.

Of the champion list you gave me I have played them all thoroughly except Ziggs. I know fully well what they are good and bad at. I can assure you that mana was far down on the list of things I cared about when playing any of them.

But is that in season 5? Before season 5 mana was very different for many of them.

As much as you may dislike how it works currently we have no real way of fixing early game mana without causing problems. We are better of fixing the handful of champions that already needed a little help in some areas.

Fixing those champions with the worst mana issues would be nice. That still doesn't fix the issue of how % of base mana regen items work. Which we actually can fix without causing problems (at least not ones worse than how it is now). But still I'd be pretty thrilled if just the most problematic mana issue champions were fixed. Shitty item design or not, if the game is fun it's fun right?

Silents429Apr 22, 20151 votes

You don't monitor the cause of most recalls (nor can you even always be sure of WHY) of your own mid laner, let alone both. Nor did I say it was the reason most of the time.

You have however been implying champions frequently have to back when OOM, and go OOM often. So put two and two together you get champions that back are normally OOM. So no you didn't directly say it you are just saying everything that means that.

I don't understand why you are trying to fight me on whether or not my map awareness is good. It isn't hard to notice details when someone recalls.

No mana when recalling, Pretty safe bet they are OOM
They are going back for an item when the lane is pushed and enemy midlaner is at tower or gone.
They are pushed out, Normally low health, no pots, and not a lot of mana.

Of course no one can fully know peoples intentions but it isn't that hard to make good assumptions on the spot.

Most champions aren't chosen based on how new their kits are. I'd have to look it up to be 100% sure but I know that in all the streams I watch and games I play the champions with the worst mana are picked considerably less than those without such issues. There are of course other factors that decide which champions get played the most as well though, obviously.

That is why people refused to pick Urgot before. That is why people refuse to pick Taric. That is why people don't play Ryze. That is why people don't play Mordekaiser.

Yes some of them have a mana problem but you are highlighting this as if it is the sole reason they aren't getting picked. It doesn't matter if they have a mana problem, it would be stupid to try balancing an item around champions that are going to be changed anyway. Would it not?

Now every champion you mentioned has a mana problem yes. But they have a whole list of issues far worse then that. And just because a mana problem happens to be one doesn't mean "Ding this champion helps my case."

We are in a state right now where mid laners that are good right now are better in a lot more ways then just Mana, No one looks at Lux and goes "She is hard to CS and maintain mana with early on. Gonna try picking one of the other majority of mid laners that CS poorly" when Lux has problems with burst, delayed W, high costing E with terrible scalings etc etc.

The problem champions OOM plenty fast enough from poking alone. I don't constantly use abilities to farm, and neither does anyone remotely decent at the game. But that's a long ways off from never using them to farm. Most mages are actually pretty bad at CSing with just AAs, especially under turret, which is where you'll end up if you never use your spells on minions. The best is when you can easily poke and farm with the same cast, as I so often do with Morgana and Ziggs with ease.

And this is a fault with certain champions not mana items. Again we aren't going to balance an item around outdated champions when the healthier ones vastly outnumber them. Also use an AA to harass too.

And yet there are a bunch of champions with no resource or a resource that's far less gating than mana............ Also I never suggested removing all mana. I'm well aware of what it does for the game that's good. I'm suggesting we make it BETTER.

If by bunch you mean 21 champions with no mana usage (includes energy/health too) so yeah. A whole hell of a lot. They are gated by either having to combo abilities to achieve max damage, do little damage, or have long as cooldowns that don't get short through levels only items.

I know you want it to be fun, but making those few champions with mana issues able to use spells more freely won't do it. What will make it fun is when the archaic kits get some tweaks and reworks. As mentioned I enjoy Swain And while his passive is a better dorans ring, his auto attack animation is clunky.

If any gameplay improvement is to occur it is to let mages get extra AD to help with CS. Just a little more to finish that damn melee creep.

But is that in season 5? Before season 5 mana was very different for many of them.

Considering I found all of them disgusting except Lux, I haven't touched them since season 3/4. But none of them have had changes to allow better last hitting since I rely more on my auto attacks then spells to achieve it.

But when we had a brief time where Lux was picked to be used as an example of a champion who went OOM no matter what and supposed "mains" saying she was unplayable well, I went and tried her a few games and had no idea what the hell they were talking about.

Fixing those champions with the worst mana issues would be nice. That still doesn't fix the issue of how % of base mana regen items work. Which we actually can fix without causing problems (at least not ones worse than how it is now). But still I'd be pretty thrilled if just the most problematic mana issue champions were fixed. Shitty item design or not, if the game is fun it's fun right?

At this point the item does its job for the champions that really need it. I wouldn't be opposed to an item dedicated to mana regen that gave 150% mana regen and some other useful passive, but the way they have it now makes it a lot easier for them to balance champions and items and that was the point of it. (As said by them)

I rather they fix up old champions like they are anyway instead of trying to force them to be played.

CosnirakApr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You have however been implying champions frequently have to back when OOM, and go OOM often.

No I never said frequently. I said sometimes. It's important because having to back even 1 more time than your lane opponent when it otherwise isn't a good time to back can give you a disadvantage that eventually snowballs into losing the game.

I don't understand why you are trying to fight me on whether or not my map awareness is good. It isn't hard to notice details when someone recalls.

No mana when recalling, Pretty safe bet they are OOM

They are going back for an item when the lane is pushed and enemy midlaner is at tower or gone.

They are pushed out, Normally low health, no pots, and not a lot of mana.

Of course no one can fully know peoples intentions but it isn't that hard to make good assumptions on the spot.

Sometimes I back at ~40% mana and ~80% hp due to low mana. When casting 2 spells means you can't even use your 3rd even though you're at 40% mana that means you're at risk of dieing to certain champions. No this isn't the case for all champions or situations but it does happen. Usually if I can cast more than 1 spell and I'm recalling due to mana it's because the waves are at a better spot for recalling than they will be most of the time so it's better to go now than wait.

That is why people refused to pick Urgot before. That is why people refuse to pick Taric. That is why people don't play Ryze. That is why people don't play Mordekaiser.

Yes some of them have a mana problem but you are highlighting this as if it is the sole reason they aren't getting picked. It doesn't matter if they have a mana problem, it would be stupid to try balancing an item around champions that are going to be changed anyway. Would it not?

I'm a little confused here. Mostly because Mordekaiser doesn't even use mana... I don't own Taric or Urgot but when I tried them while they were free I didn't have mana issues.

Now every champion you mentioned has a mana problem yes. But they have a whole list of issues far worse then that. And just because a mana problem happens to be one doesn't mean "Ding this champion helps my case."

Any champion having mana problems helps my case. My case in this regard is that champions shouldn't have mana problems once you understand how to not waste it. My point about some of them not being picked due to mana issues is basically anecdotally based and I'm not claiming otherwise. If even a few people don't pick a champion soley because it has mana problems (and they actually know how to use mana correctly) then that is a problem. You can disagree on how big of a problem all you want, neither of us can prove how big or not it is.

We are in a state right now where mid laners that are good right now are better in a lot more ways then just Mana, No one looks at Lux and goes "She is hard to CS and maintain mana with early on. Gonna try picking one of the other majority of mid laners that CS poorly" when Lux has problems with burst, delayed W, high costing E with terrible scalings etc etc.

You can't prove that. I can prove the opposite. Me alone and my feelings on Lux are all it takes to prove you wrong. This is why terms like "most/usually/likely" exist. "No one" is awfully specific.

And this is a fault with certain champions not mana items. Again we aren't going to balance an item around outdated champions when the healthier ones vastly outnumber them. Also use an AA to harass too.

The key here is that the % base mana regen items fail even the champions who don't have mana problems. It just isn't very noticeable because those champions largely don't gain anything from mana regen items anyways. This is why Ahri can build Luden's Echo first. Sure sometimes on Ahri you buy Athene's or Morello's first but those items offer more than mana and good players will buy the Fiendish Codex first on Ahri but Chalice/Idol first on a champion like Lux. I've seen multiple games now where pros buy a Codex first on Ahri, then Needlessly Large Rod, then turn Rod into Echo, but still eventually turn Codex into Athene's/Morello's because eventually it's worth the other benefits despite not needing the mana part.

Know what I don't see? Complaints that Ahri isn't gated enough by mana. If she (and plenty of other champions) can go completely without % base mana regen items and that's fine why do other champions need to be crippled by mana constraints and not even have the option to trade high damage hits for getting to attempt more hits? On the mana problem champions I'm finding it's better to just have some mana regen runes, buy triple d-rings, and by the time you need to sell a d-ring you're high enough lvl that mana isn't a big deal.

tl;dr the % base mana regen mechanic is a failure

If by bunch you mean 21 champions with no mana usage (includes energy/health too) so yeah. A whole hell of a lot. They are gated by either having to combo abilities to achieve max damage, do little damage, or have long as cooldowns that don't get short through levels only items.

Not true at all. Pretty much every champion has to combo abilities to do max damage. No champion do to their resource type or lack there of. If they do shitty damage it's cause they're a tank or support or were over nerfed. Show me these many manaless champions with cds that are so long and stay long, I can't find one.

I know you want it to be fun, but making those few champions with mana issues able to use spells more freely won't do it. What will make it fun is when the archaic kits get some tweaks and reworks.

I highly disagree. One of the reasons I enjoy ARAM and Twisted Treeline is the increased mana regen (though with the recent reduction of that on ARAM I'm having mana issues there more easily now -_- ). In ARAM some of those champions seem OP at times but mostly that's just them being AOE champions in a constant 5v5 with no flanking options and so few people knowing how to play melee there. Play Lux or Ziggs on TT and you'll see how much they still get wrecked even with extra mana.

If any gameplay improvement is to occur it is to let mages get extra AD to help with CS. Just a little more to finish that damn melee creep.

The point of their shitty autos is that they need to use spells to help them CS more than other champions, duh...... The problem with Lux is that she doesn't CS well with spells OR autos but other mana issue champions can generally at least CS well if their opponent doesn't interfere too much.

Considering I found all of them disgusting except Lux, I haven't touched them since season 3/4. But none of them have had changes to allow better last hitting since I rely more on my auto attacks then spells to achieve it.

And that's the change, their mana. Which you need for spells. To last hit with some of the time...

But when we had a brief time where Lux was picked to be used as an example of a champion who went OOM no matter what and supposed "mains" saying she was unplayable well, I went and tried her a few games and had no idea what the hell they were talking about.

I'm guessing because you accepted having awful CS as simply a result of her shitty autos. And/or because you had nothing reasonable to compare it to.

At this point the item does its job for the champions that really need it. I wouldn't be opposed to an item dedicated to mana regen that gave 150% mana regen and some other useful passive, but the way they have it now makes it a lot easier for them to balance champions and items and that was the point of it. (As said by them)

Except that none of that turned out to be the case (at least in my opinion, one of the points of such a thread is to see if others feel the same and from a number of responses, I'm far from alone). People flock to d-rings, runes, and masteries. They play different champions. They come and complain about it on the boards (seriously, I'm far from the only one).

I rather they fix up old champions like they are anyway instead of trying to force them to be played.

I don't see how making mana items actually useful for mana purposes forces certain champions to be played. If having a champion go from horribly mana starved all the time to a normal and reasonable level of mana gaiting makes them over powered then the solution is to nerf their damage/tankiness/mobility in some way, not make their mana shitty again.

Silents429Apr 22, 20151 votes

Okay you are trying to use examples based off of old ass champions, and unfortunately if you can't see why this is a bad thing and doesn't work I can't really explain it.

Old champions were built around the game at the time and League is a far different game then it was years ago. This is like having a new item that doesn't work well on Old Sion and using him as a reason it needs to change for everyone else.

Here you are using Lux, when we both have agreed a handful of champions need to get tweaked in some areas.

And I don't understand why you are trying to say I can't prove anything when it comes to why someone wouldn't pick a champion over another, But I don't know who you are trying to fool if you actually believe the only reason people don't pick these champions is just because they have a mana problem.

The champions I mentioned playing last season I relied on using auto attacks to CS not my abilities. And I don't understand why you would be against giving mages a little more AD to just let them finish minions under the tower. We don't have a hidden rule somewhere stating you are required to only use abilities to farm.

Now the champions I listed were just but a few champions that were not picked outside of 1 reason. Because for some reason you still think mana is a dealbreaker for everyone.

We have no current middle ground with the items we either make them a small boost and keep anyone who isn't working well fixed up.

Or we go to before when it was "What the hell is mana?" Their isn't a middle, because anything we try is going to cause another group to suffer. The reason it is fine now because the group that suffers is a small amount of just old champions slated for changes in the first place.

The reason the mana regen item supposedly sucks to you because "late game it isn't needed" is because it isn't supposed to have a giant affect on your mana. It gives you extra mana regen and it does just that. It adds to your current mana regen.

At this point anything said has been said. And I am not fond of replying in book report lengths, the changes done with the base mana regen are here to stay.

Pointy RockApr 19, 20152 votes

their*

SammystormApr 19, 20151 votes

you can buy a chalice and double dorian's ring and not really have any mana problems for the rest of the game.

CosnirakApr 20, 20151 votes

If only it were that easy! :D I wouldn't have made this thread in the first place if that's all it took on some of the champions I like lol.

SammystormApr 20, 20151 votes

You will be fine with that. You don't have infinite mana but you can sustain for a very long time.

Marcq34Apr 20, 20151 votes

Look at how much gold it takes just to sustain though... So you mean to tell me even if I'm winning lane i have to go double dorans and a defensive item first just to be able to mana sustain in lane? That there is the problem. I main lux and its a bit frustrating only being able to start one or two items regardless of how well im doing in lane.

SammystormApr 20, 20151 votes

Their is a trade off. If you want to be to farm heavily then you can easily go that route. If you want to be aggressive you can go into a heavy damage item and just be careful with your spells. Honestly I have no sympathy for your Lux game play I main Anivia and just deal with it because of how much stronger my skills are then the champions who get to spam. Lux is the same way. Her individual skills are very powerful.

Zair UmbrasApr 20, 20153 votes

If you go damage first as Lux, then you're honestly praying that your enemies don't buy boots. Her combo requires her slow-ish moving Q that even has a short cast time and very, very audible (Sometimes even considered Annoying) chime when casted. It's very uncommon to be hit by a Lux snare and most of the time you're just poking and farming with your E so you can scale into the late game with your proper items and a blue buff. However, any kind of blue buff stealing or your jungler being greedy, or even you just losing lane due to mana issues so you don't want to risk taking the blue and giving your opponent an edge if they manage to kill you, which is pretty easily done.

Overall, Lux has issues and her E has a higher mana cost than most ultimates... including her own ultimate. Yes. Her E, which does the least amount of damage in her kit, costs more mana than her own ultimate. It is easier to land than her Q and does have an AoE slow to help land the Q if your opponent chooses to stand in it and you have enough mana to follow up after that 130 mana cost E... >>

CosnirakApr 21, 20151 votes

So much this ^^^^^^^^! I love when people say you can harass with her E. I'm like "yeah if they ever stand in the middle of their own minions, cause if not then you can try to harass or you can CS, but not both." At least the claims about her damage to champs is slightly less a joke now that they fixed the bug with her ult.

hørnetApr 20, 20151 votes

I played DotA before I played League and Anivia is the closest I've seen to a lot of champs over there, with high damage but high mana cost spells that aren't spammy at all.

CosnirakApr 21, 20151 votes

It's not a trade off. That's the problem. You literally cannot buy your way into good mana as Lux early on. It's just not doable. Later on (and I mean MUCH later) you stop having AS bad a problem due mostly to level, not items. Lux and Anivia play very different and are terrible comparisons. One of the main problems is that Tear of the Goddess is really good with Anivia's ult and really awful with Lux's everything and so not worth buying. Also sadly after lvl 6 Anivia CSes better and easier for less mana. -_-

SammystormApr 21, 20151 votes

Anivia has always had to buy 2 mana items. Lux traditionally only had to buy one. Also Anivia is usually better off buying a RoA and a Athene's or a Zhonya's. Tear isn't particularly good on her in most cases. Honestly if you use Anivia's ult to farm 2 ish waves you will not have enough mana to combo. The reason I compare them is the mana issues. They both have a hard time with mana early yet you can manage just fine with either a RoA or a chalice + double dorian's. I agree that Lux's mana cost on e is too high early, however I don't think it is as big of a problem as you make it out to be. Lux is very very safe but she also has low kill pressure early. As such their isn't really any reason to spam early and by 6 you should have a mana item which will make it so you can farm easily with skills. I am not saying Lux doesn't have problems because she does but her mana gate (with the exception of maybe e) isn't particularly the problem.

CosnirakApr 21, 20151 votes

Anivia has very high base damage. She's designed to buy two big mana items. Lux only buys one because early on you're desperate for cdr and CSing is hell even with some AP from items, let alone without.

Lux is not safe at all. The key is that her CSing sucks and as you said she provides no kill pressure early. This means people can easily harass her. She's only safe if your opponent is terrified of a gank or incapable of punishing her need to auto attack every minion every wave. Her only escape is a skill shot to root you. Her E has a very long range but it doesn't one shot caster minions until later on and doesn't even then if you get so much as slightly behind (or buy two mana items). Even later on her only pressure involves her using Q or E + her ult and landing both. Or you could just play Xerath and have none of these issues except you still have no mobility....

SammystormApr 21, 20151 votes

CSing is hell pre RoA on Anivia as well. You can't really farm with q or e and ult is too mana costly. Honestly they both are able to reach good wave clear about the same time around 12 minutes into the game.

Lux is absolutely one of the safest mages in the game. She has hard cc, long range, and great wave clear. Unless you are laning against someone with longer range then her you should make the lane opponent take a hell of a lot of damage to get to you. Honestly you just need to have the presence of mind to understand the opponents zone of control and stay out of it. She also has a pretty hefty shield that you can max if for whatever reason you fall behind. Xerath all though currently in favor with the meta is only safer then lux because of his longer range. Lux really shouldn't die to really any one in lane. That is easier said then done but the fact remains that she is a very safe mage with the ability to turn any unfavorable matchup into a farm lane.

CosnirakApr 21, 20151 votes

Lux never reaches good wave clear unless she ults it or is MASSIVELY fed.

Lux is not one of the safest mages. She has a root that's hard to land unless you get them with the secondary part which does half damage and root duration. She has two long range abilities, both are easy to dodge and one isn't even available till lvl 6, the other costs insane amounts of mana.

You can't stay out of your opponent's zone of control constantly without having really shitty cs. Trying to kill minions early on without auto attacks is a joke and her auto attacks suck too.

Her shield is not hefty and takes so long to apply from the time you tell it to cast it that you often get hit then get shielded and have just wasted mana. It's best used in team fights when you can shield multiple allies but it's also a slow moving skill shot so good luck with that.

The key to doing anything with lux is just don't feed the enemy mid laner. Lose half your cs to being Lux. At lvl 6+ you become able to aid in fights meaningfully from a safe distance and you just steal kills off that until you have the ap to 2 or 3 shot people and you spam E in their direction till it lands then try to hit them with R. Also you continue to be sad every time you try to cs throughout the game.

SammystormApr 22, 20151 votes

Honestly I don't see the point of discussing this any further. We clearly disagree and nothing I am going to say will change your mind. Especially since the majority of your points are solved by getting mechanically better and having a more complete understanding of the game. None the less I will try one more time to explain.

Lux never reaches good wave clear unless she ults it or is MASSIVELY fed. Not true. She gets to the point where her e insta clears most of a wave and her ult does clear a wave. Most of the game it is a e + one auto to kill casters. Which is substantially better wave clear then most popular mid laners and at quite a bit longer range.

All of her abilities have substantial range. Her snare is actually one of the more forgiving hit box's in the game due to her being an old champion and her scaling off of CDR. The hit box is substantially larger then the actually in game model and missing means it is only about 8 seconds until it is up again (unless it is early game then it is about 12). The range is also 1175 which is double the range of almost every single AA in the game and longer then most other skill shots (longer range then her e). It also has a 1200 movement speed which is substantially faster then most skills especially at that range. Her w has a 1075 range which is also huge. Her e has a 1100 range. Her ult which admittedly can be hard to land has a 3340 range. Now compare this to Xerath. His q is from 750-1400, his w is 1050, his e is 1050, and his ult is 5600 at max range. These are comparable ranges.

Lux's e only cost a lot of mana before your first mana item but is easily fixed by not spamming it.

You can't stay out of your opponent's zone of control constantly without having really shitty cs. Trying to kill minions early on without auto attacks is a joke and her auto attacks suck too.

Her aa range is 550 which is longer then quite a few champions and as I showed in the above section her spells have an incredible range on them. So basically if you can't stay out of an opponents zone of control with a massive range like that you problem is probably your positioning. Her auto's do suck unless you proc her passive. This is not something unique to Lux but to all ap champions. Lux is not even close to the worst case about this. Many many other champions have shorter aa ranges and no aa damage boost.

Her shield is 80/105/130/155/180 + 35% AP. What that means is that if you have a max rank shield with 200 AP you get a shield that applies a 250 damage shield twice for 500 total. It also can hit multiple people. Basically it is a heal on a 10 second cooldown. Yes it does have a bit of a cast time but that just comes with practice and knowing when an opponent is likely to cast a skill so you can shield it.

Honestly unless you are playing against someone like Annie you should always be able to keep up in farm or out farm the opponent. The only reason she struggles against champs like annie or even Leblanc is because they have the ability to lock her down and burst her. Meaning she has to be extremely carefully around them. She has a harder time csing early for sure but not enough that it is a problem. Once you get your mana item you should be set to out wave clear and farm the opponent almost every time.

Honestly if you are dying to an enemy mid laner during laning phase it is entirely on you for doing something wrong and positioning poorly.

CosnirakApr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I don't see the point of discussing this any further. We clearly disagree and nothing I am going to say will change your mind. Especially since the majority of your points are solved by getting mechanically better and having a more complete understanding of the game. None the less I will try one more time to explain.

I've seen other people make threads about this issue. The champion most often mentioned is of course Lux. I have never seen anyone complain about Ahri's mana or Xerath's mana. I play a variety of champions. I know how to conserve mana, I know how to last hit, and I know all that better than the vast majority of players anywhere near my rank. I watch a diamond player stream who plays a lot of Lux. She has the same issue. She even takes teleport partly because of that. None of this changes the fact that mana items are shit early on, okish in the mid game, and overkill most of the time later on for most champions.

Not true. She gets to the point where her e insta clears most of a wave and her ult does clear a wave. Most of the game it is a e + one auto to kill casters. Which is substantially better wave clear then most popular mid laners and at quite a bit longer range.

Always this claim about Lux's long range. What good is the range on her E when she has to auto attack a minimum of 3 times + E just to kill the caster minions? Her auto attack range is her real range when CSing. And her auto attacks SUCK (like most mages). The speed sucks, the damage sucks. The speed is so slow any minor delay keeps you from auto attacking 3 times before her passive wears off. Xerath can cast two spells and kill more than she does with her E (plus three AAs) and he can do it while AAing once to finish off a melee minion and get back a bunch of mana, all from a range safer than Lux AAing a caster minion once. Ziggs can Q twice easier. Ahri one shots caster minions with her orb with less AP than Lux can with her E. The list goes on.

All of her abilities have substantial range. Her snare is actually one of the more forgiving hit box's in the game due to her being an old champion and her scaling off of CDR. The hit box is substantially larger then the actually in game model and missing means it is only about 8 seconds until it is up again (unless it is early game then it is about 12). The range is also 1175 which is double the range of almost every single AA in the game and longer then most other skill shots (longer range then her e). It also has a 1200 movement speed which is substantially faster then most skills especially at that range. Her w has a 1075 range which is also huge. Her e has a 1100 range. Her ult which admittedly can be hard to land has a 3340 range. Now compare this to Xerath. His q is from 750-1400, his w is 1050, his e is 1050, and his ult is 5600 at max range. These are comparable ranges.

Her snare is slow (1200 is one of the slowest common projectile speeds, Xerath's E has a 2300 speed, Zyra's passive is 1900 and quite dodgeable) and the hit box is not "substantially larger than the actual in game model," at best it's 10% larger. The CD on it is 15 / 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 (before cdr).

Most mid range mage spells are about 750-900 range. Xerath's Q is 300 greater than Lux's E, the difference between Lux's E and Syndra's dark sphere range.

Wanna see some real crazy numbers? Zigg's Q does more damage (base and AP%) than Lux's E, costs 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 mana compared to her 70 / 85 / 100 / 115 / 130, has a 6 / 5.5 / 5 / 4.5 / 4 CD compared to her flat 10, and can go up to 1400 range. Her E is a bigger aoe but his Q can still hit more than 3 minions at once. The travel times depends because his Q travels very weirdly.

Lux's e only cost a lot of mana before your first mana item but is easily fixed by not spamming it.

If you don't cast it at least once per minion wave you're probably losing out on a bit of CS. If you do cast it that often your mana keeps dropping. No first mana item fixes that.

Her AA range is 550 which is longer then quite a few champions and as I showed in the above section her spells have an incredible range on them. So basically if you can't stay out of an opponents zone of control with a massive range like that you problem is probably your positioning. Her auto's do suck unless you proc her passive. This is not something unique to Lux but to all ap champions. Lux is not even close to the worst case about this. Many many other champions have shorter aa ranges and no aa damage boost.

550 is the standard mage AA range shared by Morgana, Ziggs, Xerath, Ahri, Syndra, Zyra and many more. All those I just listed except Ahri start with the same attack speed but gain more AS than she does from levels. Ahri attacks faster to begin with. Lux's passive is not a boost to her AA, it's an excuse for why her E does less than almost all similarly comparable spells (per mana at least, per cast in most cases).

Her shield is 80/105/130/155/180 + 35% AP. What that means is that if you have a max rank shield with 200 AP you get a shield that applies a 250 damage shield twice for 500 total. It also can hit multiple people. Basically it is a heal on a 10 second cooldown. Yes it does have a bit of a cast time but that just comes with practice and knowing when an opponent is likely to cast a skill so you can shield it.

It's nothing like a heal on a 10 second cd. It's a shield.... Also as the wand returns it only refreshes the shield, the second application doesn't stack. So any shield left when it returns is wasted even if you get hit before the second application wears off. Also if by the time you max it you only have 200 AP you're a support or very behind. :p The problem with the cast time is that by the time you're sure your opponent is going to hit you it's too late to shield it. If you try to preempt their attack they usually see it and just wait for it to wear off. Either way if you cast it you're down the 60 mana.

Honestly unless you are playing against someone like Annie you should always be able to keep up in farm or out farm the opponent. The only reason she struggles against champs like annie or even Leblanc is because they have the ability to lock her down and burst her. Meaning she has to be extremely carefully around them. She has a harder time csing early for sure but not enough that it is a problem. Once you get your mana item you should be set to out wave clear and farm the opponent almost every time.

I'm almost always the top CSer in the game early on any of my other mages (later it falls off a little as I prioritize fighting and rarely split push for long so ADCs and super farmers like Trynd/Riven get ahead). Sometimes an ADC or two gets ahead if my lane opponent is very aggro or their jg ganks me a lot. With Lux this isn't the case. And I've practiced with Lux a lot to try and fix it. It's her, not me.

Honestly if you are dying to an enemy mid laner during laning phase it is entirely on you for doing something wrong and positioning poorly.

There's always risk and reward. Dieing doesn't necessarily mean you did something wrong, sometimes it means you took a risk you should have taken but it didn't pay off this time. Trying to pass off every midlane death as "it is entirely on you" is pretty arrogant bullshit. Sometimes junglers gank very well from the side you don't have warded. Sometimes you have to choose between better CS and a riskier position. There isn't always a right answer. Are most deaths in League due to a player's mistake? Of course. Are all? Of course not.

ReikkenApr 20, 20151 votes

Well, see, you're not supposed to be allowed to spam super hard. Manaless champions typically either have short range or long cooldowns on their abilities, while ones that are strongly mana gated are long range pokes. There are a few exceptions, like Zed's Q, which I have no idea why is allowed to exist as is, but in general, manaless abilities are weak for lane harass.

BemaponApr 21, 20151 votes

Mana regen runes are underrated. On some midlaners I dont even have to build mana regen anymore. It is fantastic.

CosnirakApr 22, 20151 votes

I loathe the idea of spending that much IP on just that but I've already been strongly considering it. Losing my armor runes with the prevalence of Zed and now the return of Yasuo also scares me a little but hey if I can cast that much more when laning vs them it's probably worth it. If I could try them out before committing to paying IP for them I would do that right now!

NoMonkuApr 22, 20151 votes

They gutted mana regen mainly because it was used as a stalling mechanic. All champions like Xerath and Ziggs had to do was buy item 3174 and they could stall out the game endlessly or at least until they waited enough time for them to farm up and then have a fighting chance.

Another reason they gutted it was because it just made most mana champions manaless champions. They wanted to make mana/mana regen a "meaningful" resource throughout the game instead of a "I got item 3174 or item 3165 , whats mana?" While it is true that some of the manaless champions might be on the easier to play/stronger side, there wouldn't be a way to tone them down without removing endless mana for other champions.

CosnirakApr 22, 20151 votes

I know WHY it was changed before (I've even mentioned it elsewhere in the thread but I understand not reading it all now). And I'm not saying they should make it like it was before. What I'm saying is that right now it has problems. I've also suggested a solution.

Your last line "While it is true that some of the manaless champions might be on the easier to play/stronger side, there wouldn't be a way to tone them down without removing endless mana for other champions." doesn't make sense to me. You don't need to remove endless mana for mana champions to tone down the power or ease of play of actually manaless champions... I'm not sure what would make you think that.