Why do people constantly complain about mages being dominated mid by adcs and Zed?

The Bíg Ticket··5 votes·1,354 views

When everyone apparently is fine with the fact that all the ADC and AP champs toplane have completely invalidated the class of bruisers?

Quinn goes top and wins the lane by just rightclicking on you whenever you go to cs while also outscaling you into lategame jsut because she is an ranged adc. Graves goes top and wins the lane by just rightclicking you whenever you go to cs while also being tankier than any bruiser. Also outscales you. Lissandra goes top and wins lane by Q spamming and autoattacking you out of lane while also being 10 times more useful than you in teamfights. Lulu goes top and wins lane by Q spamming and autoattacking you out of lane while being even more useful than Lissandra in teamfights.

These 4 champions are best toplaners in the game both in soloqueue and in competitive play, bruisers like Garen, Darius, Jax, Irelia, Olaf, Aatrox, etc... cannot survive the laning phase vs them while also getting outscaled by them. And I know that half of the people on the boards live under the impression that Jax and Irelia are supreme late game champions (which is bullshit for Irelia anyway since she is a midgame champ) but they bring not half as much to a team as Lulu or Lissandra while also not being able to build adc items just because they are melee. ADC items scale by far the best.

So because of the dominance of these champs toplane, people go pick tanks like Rammus, Malphite, Nautilus or Poppy toplane because these are the only champions who can survive lanes like Quinn or Lissandra and then tank the adcs later in the game. ADC mains are still delusional to the fact that there atleast 3 adcs every game, often 4 or 5, and believe we live in a "tank meta" when the only reason tanks are being played is because right now you either have to be an adc or you have to be able to tank/cc an adc. Malphite, Rammus, Naut and Poppy are excellent at the latter which is why they have ridiculous winrates if oyu look at how little games their playerbase averages on them. This also explains Trundle's high winrate toplane since he is naturally good vs tanks.

So adc mains cry about tank meta while the only reason tanks are so good right now is the fact that their natural counters (BRUISERS) are not playable right now. If you pick Darius, Garen, Renekton or Jax first you will get that Lulu, Quinn, Graves or Lissandra in your face and be useless all game. Bruisers destroy tanks in lane, no one dared to bring Rammus or Nautilus toplane couple seasons ago because Renekton, Darius, etc... would just murder them. Grasp of Undying made alot of matchups easier for tanks but they still lose to bruisers (save for counterpicks like Malphite vs Jax or Irelia).

To sum it up: Riot has to do something that prevents ranged ADCs like Quinn or Graves (goes for Vayne or Lucian top too but those are not played very often) and "utility" mages like Lulu and Lissandra (or Karma) from autowinning toplane vs every bruser in the game. That would allow people to pick something other than tanks toplane. That wouldn't solve the fact that you still need tanks to survive and cc the enemy adcSSSS!! in teamfights but atleast it would bring back a whole class of champions who once used to own top lane and HAVE NO OTHER LANE TO GO TO unlike Quinn or Graves or Lulu or Lissandra who are also very viable in other lanes.

25 Comments

L0ve Is Blue7 votes

Garen, Darius, Jax, Irelia

I'm happy those are finnaly getting shit on by some other champions for once.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

The fact that this comment gets upvotes is extremely sad.

L0ve Is Blue2 votes

Why? Those champions are litteral cancer and they can be countered by very few champions so it's ok for them to be weak against 4 champions in the whole game. I agree that ADC's are a little overtuned and that they should be a LOT more crappier early on, but don't try to convince people that ranged champions are OP in a lane where you mostly find meelee champions. Of course they are strong top lane. They have range. So they outrange you. Lulu and Lissandra are probably the only mages with enough utility and sustain to survive in the top lane can we not complain about that? Role diversity among mages is not really good, most of them can only go mid and a small part can support and thats it.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

First sentence alone shows how little understanding you have about these champs...you probably never even played a single one of them. Jax loses to 95% of all toplaners. Irelia loses to Renekton, Darius, Garen, Malphite, Pantheon, Quinn, Graves, Volibear, Nautilus, Rammus, Poppy, Nasus, Trundle, Tryndamere, Lissandra, Lulu, etc... Garen loses to Rammus, Malphite, Teemo, Graves, Quinn, Lissandra, Trundle, Darius and any champ with sustained damage Darius loses to Riven, Fiora, Quinn, Graves, Tryndamere, Kayle, Gnar, Ekko and any champ with range and disengage.

These are just from the top of my head.

Mages can be played anywhere...you have Karma who can go mid, bot or top, Lulu can go mid, top or bot, Lissandra can go mid or top, Vladimir can go mid or top, Swain can go mid or top, Karthus can go mid or top, Diana can go mid or jungle, Ryze can go mid or top, Akali can go mid or top, Brand can go mid or bot....many more examples if you want them.

Where can Darius, Garen or Irelia go outside of top? Jax can jungle fine but thats about it. You can't take them mid or bot without crippling your team. You probably never played a melee toplaner that is not a tank.

Moulin Rouge4 votes

tl;dr only ADC mains are complaining while they are the dominant force.

This does nothing to disparage the grievances of Mage mains. AP is in a terrible spot.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

Unlike bruisers mages are still viable. Ahri, Velkoz, Anivia, Morgana, TF, Malzahar and Lux are all viable. Lux and Ahri have been 2 of the most dominant soloq picks for the past six months. Lux finally got nerfed but she is still perfectly viable.

Meanwhile the top 5 highest winrate toplaners are 4 tanks and Kayle and when was the last time you saw a bruiser in competitive play? Zion played Jax like 2 times at the beginning of the season but he stopped playing him because he realized he is bad and Fiora only gets picked because she was broken as fk.

Moulin Rouge4 votes

As for me? I have been carrying myself with ADC. That is where the power is.

The occasional mid lane every now and then breaks the monotony but for the most part, AD is where its' at. It makes me sad but that is the state of the game.

So I suppose you could call me an ADC main at this point.

Bellows1 votes

You said the word Monotomy.... AurelionSol quote towards Rammus

Very Hard Engage3 votes

because when a mage hits a full rotation they need team mates to follow up to make sure the enemy carry is dead.

when an ADC or assassin uses a full rotation, you're just dead. no assistance needed. and ofc, because they're ad they have sustain, usually 1 lifesteal item, runes, or warlords, etc.

in addition to CC being hard nerfed for forever as a means of mage balance. Fiddlesticks Kassadin Leblanc Lulu Nidalee Ryze Swain Syndra Veigar Viktor Xerath Zyra

^

which one of those guys got buffs anytime recently? oh wait they've all been nerfed.


to sum up your bruiser thoughts you have to realize that the game is becoming more auto attack based, away from ability based. its just significantly more damage from thunderlords/DFT with high AD and thats enough to kill people. bruisers dont build a lot of damage, 1 maybe 2 damage items and cant abuse tons of free damages. so people are picking burst champions who can pile on all at once and get just enough damage to kill you for sure, and get a lead and snowball with it. because its significantly better than picking a team oriented comp only to fall flat on your face in lane because you got counterpicked and abused.

Bellows1 votes

Kass got Buffed in the last patch he was in actually, he was nerfed in the one before that, but you are speaking about last patch. Also kass is still good against ad champs, he jsut has better resistance towards ap.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

{quoted}

Kass got Buffed in the last patch he was in actually, he was nerfed in the one before that, but you are speaking about last patch. Also kass is still good against ad champs, he jsut has better resistance towards ap.

i was talking about the removed silence. havent seen kass in recent patches at all, unless you have something else to mention. are you talking about the W bonus mana when attacking champions change?

mages have been nerfed via their utility, if they no longer offer utility whats the point of picking AP over AD, oh right, one gets good auto attacks and the other has to wait for cooldowns and then land skill shots to be on par with their damage

Patch Notes 6.1 Kassadin no longer gains E - Force Pulse stacks from the active of Frost Queen's Claim

Patch Notes 5.7 R's stack lockout decreased. "With Kassadin's functionality as a constantly blinking must-answer threat late game still intact, we're looking to facilitate earlier aggressive roams by pulling the lever back a little on Riftwalk's lockout mechanic."

Riftwalk.png R - Riftwalk EMPOWERED STACK DURATION: 20 seconds ⇒ 15 seconds

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

{quoted}

because when a mage hits a full rotation they need team mates to follow up to make sure the enemy carry is dead.

when an ADC or assassin uses a full rotation, you're just dead. no assistance needed. and ofc, because they're ad they have sustain, usually 1 lifesteal item, runes, or warlords, etc.

in addition to CC being hard nerfed for forever as a means of mage balance. Fiddlesticks Kassadin Leblanc Lulu Nidalee Ryze Swain Syndra Veigar Viktor Xerath Zyra

^

which one of those guys got buffs anytime recently? oh wait they've all been nerfed.


to sum up your bruiser thoughts you have to realize that the game is becoming more auto attack based, away from ability based. its just significantly more damage from thunderlords/DFT with high AD and thats enough to kill people. bruisers dont build a lot of damage, 1 maybe 2 damage items and cant abuse tons of free damages. so people are picking burst champions who can pile on all at once and get just enough damage to kill you for sure, and get a lead and snowball with it. because its significantly better than picking a team oriented comp only to fall flat on your face in lane because you got counterpicked and abused.

Since when has leblanc, ryze, lux.. come to think of it when a mage hits their full rotation youre pretty much dead.. leblanc when she hits you with like two abilities XD Okay I exxagerate a little bit but not by much :P

Very Hard Engage2 votes

a full build carry like lb, ryze, lux, against a traditional crit champion or equally squishy full damage build, sure. its a volatile matchup and may the better player win.

but a full damage mage, will not combo off a zed whos built item 3139 item 3111 item 3156 item 3071

item 3165 item 3135 item 3285 item 3089 item 3157 item 3020

and then he could always just build a full ham build and top off with just item 3102 or item 3026

a mage just cant get the job done alone despite building full damage. they'll get dived on and or the enemy will just heal inbetween rotations, making the mage super weak and only exists as a glorified support.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

{quoted}

a full build carry like lb, ryze, lux, against a traditional crit champion or equally squishy full damage build, sure. its a volatile matchup and may the better player win.

but a full damage mage, will not combo off a zed whos built item 3139 item 3111 item 3156 item 3071

and then he could always just build a full ham build and top off with just item 3102 or item 3026

a mage just cant get the job done alone despite building full damage. they'll get dived on and or the enemy will just heal inbetween rotations, making the mage super weak and only exists as a glorified support.

This is true as well. It's just so hard to balance I think because if the balance a mage as a support.. they lose power in mid lane(or they're supposed to) .. but if they balance them as a mid laner... theyll just go support for a kill lane... I honestly have no idea how they can fix their balance mistakes lol..

Very Hard Engage1 votes

{quoted}

This is true as well. It's just so hard to balance I think because if the balance a mage as a support.. they lose power in mid lane(or they're supposed to) .. but if they balance them as a mid laner... theyll just go support for a kill lane... I honestly have no idea how they can fix their balance mistakes lol..

honestly, just add range.

for the longest time it was all about kiting, side steps, and doge abilities, now its all about gap closing and forcing 2v1s and getting leads, its no longer about skill anymore, just damage and forcing down objectives.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

{quoted}

honestly, just add range.

for the longest time it was all about kiting, side steps, and doge abilities, now its all about gap closing and forcing 2v1s and getting leads, its no longer about skill anymore, just damage and forcing down objectives.

Um.... adding range to lux? ....*gets PTSD of lazors FIRIN * AHHHH MAKE IT STOPPPP IM AT MY NEXUS AND SHE HIT ME FROM MID LANE TOWER RITO WHYYYYY

OurLestrade2 votes

I remember seeing a clip once of a Zed messing up and missing his entire combo on a Kalista who dodged everything really well... Then he just auto attacked her once and instakilled her with a crit (This was old Youmuus)

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Graves top, Kindred jungle, Quinn mid, Kog ADC, Ashe support = balanced team

BLYAT moon Akali1 votes

you do not want to play any of those against an irelia who knows what she is doing :D

Bellows1 votes

I am doing JSUT FINE in ranked as Aurelion Sol.AurelionSol

Abyssphere1 votes

Well it's clearly because mage players are having trouble and want to talk about it. If bruisers are struggling so much, why are no bruiser players coming to the boards?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

i see everyone in this thread disagreeing and downvoting the op, and then arguing around jungle and midlane mages vs. assassins.

op didnt say a single word how its wrong that mid lane mages are in a bad spot, but how stupid it is that were seeing 3 adc teamcomps basically since preseason and nothing is being done about it.

he only mentioned how certain ranged champs are completely dominating top lane, and how people react with actual tanks to deal with them.

excuse me, but ive not seen a top lane zed in quite a long time, so why are we talking about him right now?

honestly the problem with top lane is, how uneven certain matchups are. i wouldnt even mind ranged adc or mages in top lane, if the entire lane phase wouldnt be my enemy right clicking me to poke, while disengaging with hard cc and gap openers every time i want to trade back.

laning against ranged champs with a melee is most of the lane phase just trying to survive. ive not seen a melee vs. melee matchup ever being as one sided as melee vs. qinn/graves/lyss/ryze

you probably also can add jayce and gnar to the list. its the same shit with them whenever theyre stong or popular.

dorans shield needs a buff against ranged auto attacks imo. this would at least be a start.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

Yup, Jayce and Gnar have the same problem but they are not as popular as the ones I listed. Also I would probably rather lane against Jayce (the dude who has been known to be the most anti melee champ since release) that any of those I mentioned.

I assume you play toplane too because unlike the other people in this thread you understand the point. Melee vs ranged is only about surviving for melee, even Renekton in his best days didn't dominate and zone you as hard as Quinn or Graves can do.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bíg Ticket,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNTPEmF1,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-03-29T16:49:04.119+0000)

Yup, Jayce and Gnar have the same problem but they are not as popular as the ones I listed. Also I would probably rather lane against Jayce (the dude who has been known to be the most anti melee champ since release) that any of those I mentioned.

I assume you play toplane too because unlike the other people in this thread you understand the point. Melee vs ranged is only about surviving for melee, even Renekton in his best days didn't dominate and zone you as hard as Quinn or Graves can do.

ive had more of my fair share of these matchups, and usually try to avoid them as best i can. id rather go into mid lane vs zed on a bruiser, than deal with graves or quinn on top.

as terrible as those two are, top lane vayne is even worse. at least you can build defenses against the others.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

Zed will not be able to kill a bruiser but atleast he doesn't have to fear getting righclicked for half his hp while going for a lasthit.

Yeah Vayne (and Lucian) can do the same, I just mentioned the most popular cases.

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