Riot, you need to factor pre and post-match chat into toxicity and punishments. Here is why.

My ADC Abuses Me··172 votes·11,772 views

Behold my recent normals game. Our Ahri stole our jungler's first camp, flashed to lane, fed 6 kills in a row to Ezreal in 10 minutes, then disconnected, all without saying a word.

That's not the issue, Ahri will face justice with the tribunal.

But the Ezreal, as you can see, explicitly abuses the fact that Riot doesn't punish anything for what chat happens after the game and starts throwing around insults like "faggots" and brags about beating an intentional feeder.

He shows his extreme toxicity but he'll never be punished unless you change this backwards policy. Please punish players who troll champ select or insult in the end game screen while pretending to be good players in game.

172 Comments

Trídent36 votes

I thought Lyte said they could see... ;-;

EDIT: Yep, they can see.

Trídent2 votes

Thanks for the links confirming it ^-^

Deep Terror Nami2 votes

Even after posting these multiple times, the OP is getting a ton of upvotes from people that still believe the old myth...

AbodyHUN6662 votes

It's like arguing with a bunch of conspiracy theorists.

Silents42910 votes

Yeah Lyte already said they check lobby chats too.

ponkzy6 votes

just because they can see doesn't mean they do anything.

Trídent5 votes

Riot is very strict against toxic people. They would do something, if the player has been toxic in several games.

Sadly, all Riot cares about is toxicity, trolls usually run free.

Akesgeroth24 votes

Personally, I was about to buy Tahm Kench but then, after a match, I got a "You were verbally abusive" message. I was likely reported by the 0/10 Xin who had been trolling us the whole time. Now I don't feel like buying RP because who wants to spend money on a game they might no longer be allowed to play because the people in charge automate the process in a way which favors trolls?

Danny Internets10 votes

If you account gets banned then just do a chargeback through your bank. Riot's credit gets hit, they lose money, and you get your money back. If the account is already banned then you don't have anything to lose.

AbodyHUN6664 votes

when you get that popup, that just means you've been reported more than usual. It's just a warning to chill in case of the reports arevalid. But the system checks the chat logs and if you did nothing wrong then your account is perfectly safe. According to Lyte there is 1 false punishment in 6000 currently, and still that one case can be solved through player support. I actually think the current system is way too lenient.

Troll for Trump8 votes

OH RIGHT LET"S TRUST IN LYTE's MAGICAL NUMBERS PULLED OUT HIS HAT Tell me, if Lyte said 10/10 people mained urgot would you trust him? No. The system is automated, and this is confirmed by Lyte. You expect automated systems to be accurate? they are not.

Avios15 votes

I main Urgot...

AbodyHUN6664 votes

So you actually think that a company would trust a buggy inaccurate system on punishing and banning possible customers? Honestly 99% of the posts I see about unfair punishments are either those who don't see why it is wrong to harass a new player for playing badly, or people who misinterpret the in client popup.

Troll for Trump2 votes

RIght. YOu realize that whenever lyte smite's someone, this community just proves their even bigger douches by spamming "rekt" "salt" and "smited" . So the "high ang mighty" nontoxic people honestly need to be chat restricted too. Lyte only chooses to smite those players who are the most toxic. Player A: chat restricted for saying "ugh this fking afk jgl" Player B: chat restricted for ssaying "OMG GO KILL YOURSELF YOU PIECE OF BANJKGNKJSDBGKJBD"

both players proceed to complain on forums. Riot then goes to smite player B, because he's more toxic and makes them look good. YOu can't group player A with player B together and punish them similarly. They are completely different. It's because of the "goikillyourself" people and the worst of the worst that everyone just assumes chat restricted people are all the same. You aren't helping the problem.

owenstarkiller2 votes

Not only that but player A is in the right. He is calling to account his team mate who is wasting his time. He also has no viable alternative. Leave? Loses IP and screws 3 other players. Vote to quit? The same. So he's locked in with an ass for 40+ minutes. And you know why the ass wins? Because Riot has no actual game review (they review primarily chat logs) that is largely backed by an automated system. So who wins? The troll. Who loses? Player A who is likely trying to win.

xJLx MCHammer11 votes

+1 for awareness

I'll say smart toxic players save their hateful words after the game is done. The idiots who stay though as just as dumb

I guess that's why they don't count. Post game, there is no expectations of you to stay there, you are doing it for selfish reasons.

But pregame chat should be able to be seen

SatedCancer8 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XMadyGdL,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-07-12T02:52:20.175+0000)

+1 for awareness

I'll say smart toxic players save their hateful words after the game is done. The idiots who stay though as just as dumb

i do but i keep getting 300 chat restrictions. i think they do punish for end game chat lol.

Deep Terror Nami11 votes

It is seen. The pre and post-game chat logs were not presented in Tribunal cases, but we aren't using the Tribunal. Riot has always had access to those logs, and they are checked just like in-game chat is. You should have said "-1 for ignorance" instead.

RottedApples1 votes

no one has every told me this ever. I've been working on the assumption that it was like tribunal where you never saw them. I've never heard a post from riot anywhere in which they have said they look at pre/post game logs. And i'm clearly not alone here.

They literally never mention it and that is probably part of the problem.

Like i don't even believe you...

Deep Terror Nami13 votes

Ah there it is.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3377247&page=23#post37118092

I emphasized the part of your post that is important. When we investigated pre- and post-game chat, the question we asked was: "What is the incremental value we would get by adding this feature? Would we identify more toxic players, and if so, how many more?" It turns out that many players who are toxic in pre- and post-game chat are also toxic in-game, and tend to be caught by the Tribunal. However, Riot does have access to the logs--they just aren't hooked up to the Tribunal system. Given the choice, should the player behavior team work on Champ Select issues, or work on pre- and post-game chat? The answer is pretty clear.

In saying this, as you might have heard from other player behavior members, we have been shifting away from feature development on punishment systems. Like I mentioned in the GDC talk linked earlier in this thread, we're focusing much of our development on making the game more enjoyable for neutral and sportsmanlike players instead of focusing on the toxic players.

Please upvote for the time I spent looking for this, instead of downvoting for being skeptical.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

smart toxic players ?

those use all the tools they have to get their fun

rule first of smart trolling ... use your champion for the bad stuff ... preferably bard's ultimate or tahm kench's w

rule 2 every time you succed in trolling and causing damage to your team use chat "sorry mate ... that was a mistake"

rule 3 do it in such a way that your teammates will have to become aware of your trolling and their lack of power to stop you becuase officialy you are just a player who has a bad game ... realy nice and healthy player ... a teamworking friendly player

and whatever they throw at you ... you are just a bad player who made some bad decisions ... they cant punish you for not playing too good

FatesDefiler10 votes

was playing aram against a ryze, fiddles, karthus, thresh, and teemo. i was laughing pretty hard at how badly we were being abused. i typed into team chat, mostly to console my teammates during the process of this horrific whooping we were recieving:

'wow, they pretty much have the perfect aram team'.

my ally urgot replies:

'quit complaining, their team isn't that great'

I replied:

'not complaining, they have a few of the highest dps champs in the game, plus teemo'.

after the game when we get to the lobby he says:

'qq more bbygirl'

and I see the notification that i've just been reported pop up on my screen. what choice do I have at that point but to report him back? i'm honestly afraid to play this game pvp anymore. i get this kind of people about every other game and they usually choose me as their target and I've got the ban counts to prove it. Riot's playerbase moderation system leaves a lot to be desired.

a rabid cupcake3 votes

If you're chill, not a rager, and don't use profanity, slurs, epithets, etc towards other people and players, feel free to add me for an ARAM match.

I don't play the best, but if you're a decent human being, you'll have at least one person on your team consistently who won't report you.

Deep Terror Nami7 votes

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4538478&page=79#post47334546

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3377247&page=23#post37118092

A whole lot of ignorance in this thread. It has been said several times (links provided) that the chat is visible to Riot and taken into account for reports. You are all believing in the myth that originated from the Tribunal, because pre/post-game chat was not given to them for review.

Troll for Trump2 votes

right. Ok it's automated. You agree to that right?

Tell me, how can you "automaticcaly" tell if someone's toxic? Does it apply a word filter? If you say crap, does that mean you are "verbal abusing" yeah I dont see how an automatic system can work.

AbodyHUN6664 votes

No, it has a machine learning system that adjusts itself to what the playerbase is reporting and is regularly checked for accuracy.

Yonahga6 votes

I think they need to change the fact that most people getting banned by their excessive verbal abuse policy are the people who get mad and frustrated at feeders, trolls, and other such undesirables while the trolls and such walk away unscathed because trolling isn't bannable unless they are toxic in the chat during the game (in which any normal person uses the Mute button, which makes the entire in game ban policy make no damn sense whatsoever, but Riot isn't exactly the brightest bulb in the pack even if they are the only bulb in the pack).

owenstarkiller1 votes

No, it makes perfect sense if you understand Lyte. Lyte has a degree in psychological conditioning. He's using the tribunal system to "train" players not to ensure justice. Once you understand he's training the system to not complain (no matter how horrible the system is) you understand the whole process. Lyte's bonus check is predicated on you not complaining even if you faced a negative game.

Yonahga2 votes

I understand what Lyte is trying to do, but it isn't working. It punishes those who aren't the chronic trolls because the trolls find the easy "holes" in his thinking. The verbal abuse system doesn't work, trolls don't get banned because they troll in unbannable ways i.e. feeding, anivia walling, stealing buffs, afk, et cetera. And on top of that the trolls are the ones that more or less report people, regular everyday players say "Whatever I will never see that person again" or if they do report it is usually nulled due to the fact that they probably didn't cuss or saying anything "mean" or "troll" in game. Not to mention the broken as hell LeaverBuster is nulled when all you have to do is move every 4 minutes to prevent it from finding you so said trolls can AFK and get away with it (But then proceeds to report you for the game crashing on entry and being unable to reconnect).

I think it's great you support Riot's decision in this, that's fine and dandy, I'm just saying it is not working as of yet; it makes more toxic players then it deals with. Unless Riot's goal is to frustrate as much of their playerbase as possible then they are very much succeeding. They are many years into this game, they should know better, they should listen better, they should learn from their mistakes, but sigh they just don't. item 3070

Btw just because he has a degree in psychology doesn't make him a behavioral scientist/engineer, I have a degree in biology, biological science, and astronomy but you don't see me working for NASA or Frank Drake.

Tomatosx5 votes

Oh no, a 0/19 xin that refuses to communicate, and does nothing but die. Can I ask him to not feed anymore? Nope!! TOXIC Do I have to give him royal treatment because trolls rule LoL? YEP!!!!!!

Troll for Trump4 votes

reports 0/15 xin who trolled promotionals on purpose in team chat: xin: Im going to ruin your promotionals you douches S1: well reported for intentional trolling xin (all chat): Pls help premade team is being toxic and bullying me pls report.

Ahh can you reply? Nope cuz you are chat restricted and can't go into all chat. So good luck with the unchat restricted unpunished trolls getting the ability to convin e the entire enemy team to go against you...

Post game: S1: report xin for intentional feeding and intentioanlyl trying to ruin promotionals XIn: wtf man enemy: dude stop picking on xin he was trying (rest of xin's team explains hes been trolling) enemy team(who only heard xin zhao's lying crap which your team couldnt reply to cuz you were chat restricted): OMG guys dont lie xin is OBVIOUSLY not trolling, he's trying to play. YOu guys are just toxic, reported. And you get chat restricted while xin gets away scot free

Delioth5 votes

Solution: Don't get chat restricted in the first place...

But really, your scenario only self-perpetuates- there's no chance in there for it to start, as the scenario relies on everyone on your team being chat restricted except for the troll.

Flemman5 votes

chat log pre and post game are already being checked, only troll tells you it's not because they live in their own world with no consequences from their behaviour :p

The Whamboozler5 votes

There aren't any factors into bans. It's a freaking bot that does it.

Saianna4 votes

That's not the issue, Ahri will face justice with the tribunal.

That is, once Riot will reenable tribunal again. I wouldn't hope for too much.

Troll for Trump4 votes

reenable tribunal; the automated chat restriction system is broken. I went support yorick in a normal draft game, won the game with a 3/1/16 score, then got reported for trolling... by a jungle vayne. Oh and guess what that one report did? "warning: you have recently been reported for verbal abuse... blah blah blah".We won the game, but I got reported "for the lols". meanwhile the whole game she and her premade buddy were toxic. The other two teammates did nothing and were neutral, because riot: "if you retaliate, that makes the game toxic to 8 people." Or something like that. Apparantly, you are not allowed to retaliate.

(http://imgur.com/a/BhBAm (images of game chats etc. The jinx/ashe duo troll bot game just pissed me off...)

first 3 images: We had a premade bot who was trolling; of course everyone hated them. The reason they trolled? "because we did not get top and jungle" So basically they were being douches to us the whole game. Ahri...so she reported both of us "because we did not give the premade what they want". So because the premade is there, they have to get everything they want served on a silver plate? My runes are for talon mid and nasus top, I cant change runes in queue. And they didn't say anytihng until AFTER we picked. Kayle proceeded to mute everyone except me. We even tried surrendering early, but nope. 2 people, 3/5=no surrender. And the opposing team just kept bming us. Did I mention this was a ranked promotional game.... even worse, they convinced the enemies to report me because I was "being toxic". And ahri didn't stop to join in to support them. I can't defend myself because, whup im chat restricted, can't talk in all chat. kayle wouldn't say anything cuz everyone was muted... and yep, some of the people didn't see jinx's build. They just autoreported me. So 2-man premade report(people still think it counts as one report; it doesn't), a report from ahri, and maybe 1 or 2 reports from the enemies who reported me before I pointed out jinx's build.

The final image in the album: Yeah I was kind a douche and childish to the Diana here. But she kept telling me to kill myself (I camped mid because heim isn't evil enough). And raging at everything in general. It just puzzles me why I am sitting here chat restricted(I couldn't reply to her ingame, cuz I was chat restricted) and I am not. It didn't even display the "person you reported has been punished thing". Come on, im chat restricted for minor things like "dude build infinite edge not botrk on adc ez" and "pls play safer" or "stay safe under turret so you dont die". But you don't get chat restricted for telling people to die? wtf?(shes not chat restricted; she's talking in all chat)

FantasySniper3 votes

I thought they did.

Malicious Fury3 votes

Why so many upvotes? He's asking for something that's clearly been said by Riot that already happens. It's been said more than once... It's been known for years.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Ok, you, and other people ("valkyrie witch") need to stop going on here and preaching with random links and so forth; he's not asking whether or not they can SEE the post and pregame chat. Looks like you just read the title without reading the post. Well, you misread the title as well. He's asking them to factor pre and post game chat into their punishment handling, which right now, they either don't do it, do it poorly, or do it incorrectly. Probably all 3 of the above. he's not just referencing to the post and pregame chat only, he's referencing the ENTIRE broken reporting system. The example he used contains the post and pregame chat. He is using it to demonstrate the problem, in which players like him are the ones getting victimized and punished while people like ezreal can get away with it.

Malicious Fury4 votes

{quoted}He's asking them to factor pre and post game chat into their punishment handling

Not only have they been able to see, but they've been using pre and post game chat to punish you lol. This has been known for years.

:-)

ZeroshiYaSoYoLo2 votes

I know who to blame for all of this issue, it's Riot's fault. The end.

Troll for Trump3 votes

the toxicity among the community isn't their fault, but it is their fault for no reimplementing the tribunal when they said they would 2 seasons ago(also said they would rework yorick, they instead rework gp by half-ruining critplank and changing his kit when all he needed was maybe a visual update, and rework mf because idk.) It is their fault to make a really inaccurate automated system, and for using chat restrictions...

owenstarkiller1 votes

No here I think you are wrong Vul. The system encourages low grade toxicity as long as it isn't what the automated system can see. As you have noted upthread if I go into a game and very carefully feed, possibly ks a little (I don't think ks is a thing unless used to deprive the team) I can enrage my team and be fine. They will get the bans. I'll look like a saint even though I defeated the system.

Troll for Trump2 votes

intentionally feeding will probably mean you get 4 or more reports for intentional feeding. Such a shame riot does nothing to punish players for intentionally feeding. Yep, you get unpunished, while those players are "toxic". They go to the forums or anywhere else to express their troubles and everyone tahm kenches them and basically treats them like trash

Ratchet Fortune2 votes

came here to say I love your name

lol

Daxterr2 votes

Well it's good to know that rito checks all the chat logs. What would help our peace of mind even more is if we got a pop up that says "you got someone banned! " or "you got someone chat restricted". This would not only give people peace of mind that the serious cases of harassment are punished, it would dissuade people from reporting for stupid things.

If someone reported their team mates for things like "this noob he doesn't even know how to play tahm kench what a noob god damn" they would get no recognition from rito. This way some people will stop being so toxic, or at least not send as many dumb reports.

Daxterr2 votes

In fact I bet that's what happened to the lore. I bet Rito had to fire most of their lore team so they could higher more tribunal people to deal with all the stupid reports.

Troll for Trump2 votes

they do have notifications that "you got someone banned".I reported a azir who intentionally fed, and, the next queu, a popup appeared saying he had been punished. Too bad that was the only time it happened.

"If someone reported their team mates for things like "this noob he doesn't even know how to play tahm kench what a noob god damn" they would get no recognition from rito. This way some people will stop being so toxic, or at least not send as many dumb reports."

uhh no. Rage reporting, and troll reporting are a thing. The automatic system cannot distinguish between false and true reports. That's why after getting a false report, there is still a popup saying "you got reported" and warning you to not be toxic. The automatic system will still chat restrict you for being "Toxic" even with these false reports.

Kapstein2 votes

Ezreal name name is Koi Dog

Ahri name is KingofChinawtr

Thanks me later.

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