A Possible Answer to Unwanted Tank Builds

Teridax68··1 votes·479 views

TL;DR: Why not make health on items a base stat multiplier, a la health/mana regeneration, and buff the health/lvl growth of "true" tanky champions? Perhaps the same could be done to armor/MR on items, too.

It's a pretty common complaint now that some champions who go tanky... well, really shouldn't be doing that. By all rights, the idea of champions like Fiora, Fizz, Akali or Master Yi building lots of health, or just marksmen picking Sterak's Gage, should make no sense, but that's unfortunately the case right now. There are probably a lot of different reasons for this (there's probably too much damage in the game overall, which is why squishies need to go tanky to avoid getting bursted too hard; several champions have a bit too much base damage and not enough scaling; some tanky items are just flat-out too strong; etc.), but the core issue is that tanky builds are way too effective on champions who are meant to be innately squishy. Dead Man's Plate on its own brings very similar benefits to any champion, whether the wielder is Yi or Garen, for example, and whenever it or similar items get nerfed, it's often to the detriment of tanky champions who aren't especially problematic, but who relied on those items and are now flat-out weaker because their build was abused by someone who shouldn't have been using those items in the first place.

With this whole issue of tanky builds being far too generally good, I think the core problem is that there needs to be better stat binding between tanky stats and tanky champions. Obviously, it wouldn't be a good idea to slap health-based scalings onto every tank or juggernaut, but it would likely be worth making it so that they'd benefit significantly more from even just one tanky item than a champion whose playstyle, strengths and weaknesses are innately dependent on their intended squishiness (looking at you, Fiora). The answer to that, besides a bit more special-casing (e.g. making Sterak's melee-only, shifting Titanic Hydra's power away from raw AD and more onto its health-to-damage ratio), could be to make item-based health an amplifier to the champion's base health stat, and then buff the health growth of tanks and juggernauts (and probably divers, too) so that, in the end, those champions would end up with similar or identical amounts of health in their builds, whereas the rest would get much weaker returns (Rylai's and Liandry's should probably have their stats tuned to give the same amount of health to mages, though, and/or mages dependent on that combo could have their health growth buffed as well).

Aside from the main effect of discouraging tanky builds on squishies, I feel a change like that could also carry many other bonuses: Doran's Shield, for example, could be adjusted to either scale way better into the late-game (by switching to scaling health) or provide a significantly better early health boost than other items (by sticking to flat health). Counters to health, such as Blade of the Ruined King, Giant Slayer or Liandry's Torment, would become a bit less generic and more reactive, and with proper tuning Warmog's would probably not even need to stat-check its wielder to provide its regeneration, particularly since Soraka, the main outlier, can obtain it with just a Ruby Sightstone (and sooner than that with Locket of the Iron Solari). Going even farther, health-boosting effects like Dominus, Feast, Fury of the Sands or Wild Growth could be made to boost base health and therefore synergize better with tanky builds (Soul Furnace should probably just stick to providing bonus health, though).

What do you think?

16 Comments

Myrmiron2 votes

Sorry but I hate your idea. If a certain character is unintentionally too effective as a tank, that means there's something wrong with this character individually. You should absolutely be able to play any character tanky/ as a tank.

As for whats wrong with the current offenders, well it's pretty straight forward. They do NOT get too tanky, but simply deal too much damage for how tanky they get. This may be because of too high base damages (hello Fiora), or because of a certain item/ item combination (hello Devourer). It's not because they get too tanky.

Carry type champions should scale well with offensive stats, if they don't but have ridiculous base damages in their kit they will be abused.

ALSO: If you make tanks tanky by default just so that tank items scale well on them, they will likely be abused by building full AD on them. This would make them tanky murder machines which would be even less desireable than the state they're in right now.

Teridax681 votes

A potential answer to that could be to just make AD itself a base stat increase across the board, and tune bruisers/marksmen/etc. accordingly, but I don't think builds like full AD Nautilus would catch on unless AD itemization were just way too self-synergistic (which might perhaps be the case). I agree that many current "tanky" champions just have too much base damage, but beyond certain champions or items having too much free power, I think the current state of tanky builds being abused points more to the issue with tanky builds themselves, rather than just a whole different bunch of individual champions. Items like DMP, Titanic Hydra and Sterak's have been targeted repeatedly, even beyond the point where the champions they were meant for (i.e. juggernauts) had finally settled into a good spot, and even marksmen, who are heavily dependent on damage items, have been building "tanky" as well.

Sohleks2 votes

It's a valid direction.

It's also extremely heavy handed though. It ties up early game HP to their game long survivability. But you could also make the arguement that in the other way base damage determines whose a viable tank.

Teridax681 votes

I agree, it is fairly heavy-handed, but I don't think it would be all that major in the early game, besides making health items a little less immediately powerful. My personal opinion on base stats is that they should innately reflect a champion's itemization affinities: a champion with particularly great attack speed, for example, should probably enjoy building attack speed and on-hit (as is usually the case now), for example, whereas a champion with exceptionally good tanky stats should probably do well with a tanky build. One of the many things I like about tying items closer to base stats is that it would allow for much better per-champion control (i.e. if a champion goes off the rails if they stack too much health too early, nerf the champion and not the items they build), and could bind stats far more easily to champions, without having to go directly into ability scalings and synergies and whatnot, which is itself often pretty heavy-handed.

Anraton1 votes

I understand the idea but ... it would result into a complete different itemisation feeling .... cause .. you have experiences and "know" what will happen if you buy [item X] .. and this drastic change would .. well kind of result in a total different game.

Teridax681 votes

How so? The idea of amplifying base stats is already present on health/mana regen and didn't really change the feel of gameplay, and even Sterak's Gage gives "special" AD that doesn't factor into bonus AD scalings. The intention is also to leave champions who are meant to stack health with similar, if not identical amounts of the stat (and you'd innately know which champions those would be), and others with less (and again, it wouldn't/shouldn't require research to guess if a champion is meant to be build squishy or tanky). If anything, it's the current state of tanky builds taking over even on assassins and light fighters (and, to a lesser extent, marksmen) that's distorting the game, and causing frail-looking champions to become as difficult to kill as fully-fledged tanks, juggernauts and bruisers.

Anraton1 votes

well you are right with health regen .. but over all ... i think that change was an increase in hp regen over all. Steraks was a new item ... you are talking about reworking about ... 40?

item 3001 ,item 3060 ,item 3742 ,item 3137 ,item 1316 ,item 1321 ,item 2303 ,item 3022 ,item 3026 ,item 3025 ,item 3056 ,item 3143 ,item 3116 ,item 3065 ,item 3068 ,item 3053 ,item 3083 ,item 3512 ,item 3157 ,item 3091,item 3071 ,item 3748

AND all dependencies

thats a real huge change

Teridax681 votes

There are about 40 items with regeneration of some kind, too, so a change like that would be relatively similar in scale. A different challenge would involve checking if health scalings would need modifying (doubtful, considering tanks would likely end up with similar health levels), but there have still been far larger changes to stats and itemization for equal or lesser reasons (reworking the whole of base stat growth mainly to prevent overly strong level 2 spikes, for example).

Anraton1 votes

Didn't want to say it is an impossible change .. only wanted to mention that it is a real huge effort .. as you have to rework many champions as result ...

Teridax681 votes

I don't think it would involve reworking any champion at all. If you mean changing their stats, perhaps even tweaking the numbers on their health scalings, then sure, but reworking them would imply completely changing at least some core part of their kit, which doesn't follow from the changes I'm suggesting here.

Anraton1 votes

well ... consider Volibear W damage which deals damage dependend on health ... hp dependent shields ... the healing mechanics ....

Teridax681 votes

Frenzy scales with bonus health, sure, but if it ended up somehow lacking in damage, one possible solution could be to increase its bases instead. The same goes for health-based shields, health-based healing, etc., including cases where the increase in base health growth could potentially make them too strong. Those would all be balance changes, of which we get a laundry list about every two weeks, but not reworks.

Zorasama1 votes

Aatrox and Morde are crying.

Teridax681 votes

Morde is a juggernaut, so it would be a good excuse to buff his health growth, which even now really needs an increase. Aatrox is sort of on the fence between a diver bruiser and a light fighter, but could still use a base health buff as well.

3TWarrior1 votes

I posted a similar thread about how the champion base stats should be changed and the potential hybrid versions of items should be changed to fit one theme or another instead of multiple

for instance, sunfire cape is a safety item that many can build and increase their damage with but is it supposed to be a tank item or a bruiser item?

then there are all the carry options

lol, building tanky can be fun though...I actually had a fairly happy experience on ARAM by building Cassiopeia tanky...she ended up with horrible health stats for a tank but decent defenses and enough health recovery to duel their engages

Teridax681 votes

I agree that items should fill one very clear niche instead of trying to cover several at a time, and I feel Sunfire Cape is a good example of an item that's decent on most tanky champions, but fails to achieve one specific purpose very well (Is it a waveclear item? Is it meant for dueling? What playstyles or builds does it synergize with in particular?), which is why it's somewhat fallen out of popularity after the introduction of more specialized items (namely, Dead Man's Plate). It's become more popular recently with the buffs to its waveclear, but still lacks a really well-defined niche.

In general, I feel tanky itemization is still somewhat stuck in a "hybrid" state because until very recently bruisers and tanks have both been using the exact same items, and the core purpose of most tanky items is to make their users more durable without answering to deeper gameplay requirements. For that reason, there's also been a lot of overlap between tanky fighters and real tanks, to the point where it's often difficult to assess who's a tank and who's a fighter. If "true" tank items were changed to reward real tank behavior, e.g. soaking up damage for your team, peeling for your allies, disrupting enemies, etc., then we'd see tanks and bruisers build differently, and tanky items in general truly benefiting tanky champions, instead of offering generically good benefits to everyone. There could probably still be some tanky items that'd benefit both fighters and tanks (Randuin's Omen would probably be the main example), but all tank items should still scale with tanking in both build and playstyle, whereas bruiser items should provide tankiness for the sake of dealing more damage.

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