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[MEGATHREAD] Let's Discuss: Caitlyn

Teridax68·8/10/2017, 11:41:49 AM·26 votes·3,490 views

Hi everyone! Welcome to Let’s Discuss, a community-let project where we get to focus discussion around a selected topic, and give concentrated, high-quality feedback to Riot. For the second installment, let’s discuss Caitlyn: a champion historically known for being a bit of a bully, she's become a persistent hot-button talking point on Gameplay ever since her rework in Preseason 6. She's been known to cause a lot of frustration at all of her win rates since then, and the sheer volume of posts related to her throughout that whole time has pushed us to make this megathread. In here, we invite you to provide targeted, well-reasoned feedback that could help put her in a better place, and discuss ideas with fellow players here.

Before you post, here are some core rules:

  • Constructive discussion above all: This is the golden rule. We all have different opinions, and some of these opinions are almost certainly going to clash with each other. This is not an excuse to disrespect each other or derail conversation into personal arguments. If you are going to post here, it is going to be with the intent of contributing to the topic of discussion, and by extension the game as a whole. We Wardens will be monitoring this thread very closely, and enforcing this rule much more strictly than average, to make sure this happens.
  • Stay concise: because there’s going to be a lot of discussion, and because others are going to be reading through this, it is important to keep things as brief as possible. This is not the place to post your full 3-page rework concept, even if a link to it or a few key suggestions will help. Be sure to read through the major conversations here, as well as the summary below, to check if something you want to share has been said before. Focus discussion about Caitlyn on this thread: We’ve all seen Gameplay blow up with half a dozen threads on the front page talking about more or less the same topic. This is a chance to avoid that: if you see this megathread and want to talk about Caitlyn, post here! You’ll have a higher chance of getting feedback from others, as well as Riot’s attention.
  • If you disagree, respond, don't downvote: Tbh this should be a general rule across Gameplay, but the downvote button is not for when you disagree with someone else's opinion. If a player is legitimately being toxic and disrupting conversation, you can downvote them, and are encouraged to report them, but otherwise hold off of that button and instead try to formulate a reply that states why you disagree.
  • Try to frame your feedback around these three questions (this is more of a guideline):
  • What is your criticism of the current state of Caitlyn?
  • What do you want Caitlyn’s gameplay fantasy to be?
  • What changes would you suggest to Caitlyn?

Good luck, and happy commenting! Be sure to check on this thread in the future, as we’ll be filling out the summary in this OP of this megathread’s current major talking points.

104 Comments

Fondling Gems8/10/2017, 12:17:09 PM22 votes

I would like to see her based a bit more around being at a range. Recently on the boards someone mentioned making her autoattacks scale with distance, similarly to Nidalee spears which I think is kinda neat and provides clear counterplay.

It enforces her poking nature while punishing her if enemies get too close. For this to work I think some of her safety would have to be removed though.

Personally I don't really mind the traps, there are never enough to truly wall off a lane, just enough to create a chokepoint and putting them out there like that opens her up to flanks. The only thing I would like to see at all about traps is to give the the Azir soldier treatment and have them have a shorter duration under enemy turrets.

Instead I would like to look at her 90 caliber net. It is a dash, pretty hefty headshot damage, and a fairly strong slow all in one. Now it has a decent cooldown, but with how long Caitlyn can hold people off already with her traps and poke I find that the CD doesn't tend to be very impactful in lane.

I would prefer to see Cailtyn be more reliant on her traps to keep her safe, setting up her sniper point per say rather than have a disable and escape thrown into one on top of her zoning. Not entirely sure what I would want it replaced with, but IMO I am perfectly happy with Caitlyn as a ranged bully, it is the fact that even once you get to her she has another escape that frustrates me personally. It is even a wall hop too, just to really shove it in.

Just the 2 cents of someone who is fine laning vs Catilyn, but would prefer if she got some more skill expression and counterplay.

Magical Zoe8/10/2017, 11:54:49 AM13 votes

Caitlyn already had a sub 50% win rate, and now with these changes I think they gutted her pretty hard. Her AS nerfs and passive nerfs before this change put her in a OK spot, but now she feels weak to play.

Q deals less damage to targets beyond the first. W base damage decreased at early ranks; ratio reduced.

PASSTHROUGH DAMAGE :: 67% to enemies beyond the first >>> 50% to enemies beyond the first

W - Yordle Snap Trap

TRAP BONUS DAMAGE :: 30/70/110/150/190 (+0.7 total attack damage) >>> 10/55/100/145/190 (+0.6 total attack damage)

Yuyiyo8/10/2017, 12:12:32 PM8 votes

I do think they should rework her. She doesn't fit the theme of a sheriff, she doesn't fit the theme of a sniper. Personally, I think a sniper should have big moments of high damage, and should defiantly not be a DPS character. Only her ult is even mildly reminiscent of a sniper, and even then its not interactive or that fun to use, it's point and click damage.

So yeah, she is either going to be an overpowered lane bully and seige master because of her traps and her long range, or she will be weak because she can't do anything outside of those two things. I'll just wait for a rework.

AFilthyCaitMain8/10/2017, 5:51:45 PM7 votes

Caitlyns kit as of now is fine, although a rework could be needed. ill explain both.

To explain what i mean ill use Ghostcrawlers categories.

Satisfying to play: Caitlyn delivers on this pillar really well. landing a full combo, or a trap, an e, almost everything in her kit really is satisfying.

Resonant Theme: This is where Caitlyn falters the most. You wouldnt look at her kit and be, yes, this is Caitlyn. The sniper theme could be better addressed than it is currently.

Skill Expression: Caitlyn delivers on this pillar very well, being one of the higher skill cap ADCs. You have your combos, trap management, etc.

Fairness: This is where things get tricky. As of now, Caitlyns laning is pretty unfair. After lane though she becomes easier to deal with. She cant completely block off a lane, her teamfighting ability is limited, etc.

Unique: Caitlyn mostly delivers on this pillar well. Her gameplay style is pretty unique to her, although it could be better, and shes a british sniper cop. pretty cool. Art wise, Caitlyn could deliver a bit better in game. Her in game assets are unique but they dont exactly scream Caitlyn aside from her traps. Her splash, character, etc are pretty unique though.

As of now, Caitlyns kit is fine, aside from her theme and fairness. Although Riot could definitely deliver way better if they tried. I can almost confirm she will eventually get a VGU, seeing as how her kit seems to have a core flaw, and they know they could deliver better on her design.

Balance wise shes just been beaten to trash lately. They really need to nerf her traps and give her her AS back.

Hyrum Graff8/10/2017, 6:36:07 PM5 votes

My biggest problem with cait is that her trap visuals don't line up with how threatening they are. It's pretty easy to overlook a trap in a busy teamfight, or even just a stray one sitting in a bush, but if you run into it, there's half your hp (as a squishy).

TonyTonyMordecai8/13/2017, 2:28:42 AM4 votes

A change I think could work would be if they made her auto attack range smaller, in exchange for whenever she gets full passive stacks she gains bonus range (like rapid fire cannon) on top of her bonus damage.

For Caitlyn, her sniper fantasy doesn't work unless her slow attack speed is buffered with more damage in return, but since she falls under the normal adc niche of dps instead of "i attack slow, but each one hurts more", where the latter works for someone who auto attacks instead of throws spells (like Jhin).

Her traps should also have a longer arm time, since chained with any cc means you are rooted for even longer, and in a fight it's hard to keep track of them with every other particle being thrown out there. If she's a sniper, she needs to rely on planning, not instinct.

Aimléss8/12/2017, 1:46:29 AM4 votes

Caitlyn's main problem from the opponent's perspective is that her traps are oppressive in lane, and from the player's perspective, it's that if they nerf her traps then she would just be a worse version of the other AA marksmen. I would rather have them explore her "sniper" theme more and pull back on the "traps" theme a bit, since the traps have proven that they are not entirely gameplay friendly/fair. Since she is a sniper, she really should feel like one.

How I'd go about it

My idea of a sniper is one that rewards players for landing ranged skill shots. Something like Xerath, but with Caitlyn being an ADC, she presents Riot with a terrific opportunity to explore a combination of skill shots and ranged AAs.

Like what if her Q was changed to shoot out the red beam that snipers use, and on the first enemy hit, she'd gain increased AA range on that enemy for a few seconds. Then her passive could be replaced so that she fires headshots when AA'ing from this increased range. Now you can build around that and nerf the traps to compensate.

Her ult could be used to bolster her Q, giving it a much greater range and maybe using the beam to reveal the area as she fires it. And if she lands that skillshot she can headshot from a distance maybe to catch out enemies.

This seems like a great way to incorporate a skill shot reliant sniper theme, with the AA gameplay that most marksmen covet. Anyway, just something I thought of as someone who enjoys playing Caitlyn, and hates playing against her.

TheSingularity8/11/2017, 2:13:58 AM3 votes

Personally I think she should receive what I felt her old power curve was, decent>strong>weak compared to other adc's early>mid>late. Kog was an example of weak>decent>strong. This can be achieved with high base damage and reduced scalings.

Her traps have been an issue ever since their change. This has been a highly vocal issue on the boards and in-game chats whenever a cait begins her siege. In my opinion, the bear trap should be a self peeling/defensive tool and not an offensive zoning tool. Her auto attacks and Q are enough to make people stand back without them.

I would make the following changes to her trap:

Placement range reduced to almost melee (like a hec Q so there's some breathing room). Damage increased. CC changed, snares the enemy for 0.5-0.75 seconds and then slows them for 0.75-1.5 seconds upon the end of the snare. They're revealed, grant a head shot charge as normal but also take additional damage from the Q and R. Trap duration decreased to 40 seconds, cooldown decreased to compensate (so it is less "set and forget") so that cait has to think about keeping her flanks covered. New interaction walking over a trap collects it and grants a trap charge, this prevents cait from standing on them to prevent dives. They are a safety tool, not an impenetrable shield.

This makes the spell more about covering her flanks and making her difficult to dive that the current zoning version.

A changed ult: She is a sniper, but jhin is more of a sniper than cait could ever be currently. So I propose the following change.

Upon activation, cait can choose either a targeted nuke or a skill shot. The targeted spell deals less damage than current and can be blocked.

Skillshot version: she makes no announcement like jhin or sion and marks an enemy champion that's been seen within 6 seconds by anyone (the enemy do not know, given they're probably low they should be on their guard) and that champ is revealed FOR CAITLYN ONLY. The shot will pass through all champions but the one marked dealing no damage to unmarked champs (it is un blockable). It will deal %missing health+base+dmg times distance travelled. IT IS NOT GLOBAL!, think nocturne ult range.

If cait kills someone with option 2, the ult cooldown is completely refreshed and cait gains some bonus gold.

Robertsmash8/10/2017, 5:43:31 PM3 votes

She doesn't fit the sniper theme at all. I think it would be cool if she had an ability that rooted her (maybe she goes prone) and increased her auto range, but made her autos blockable (like her ult is). It would interact nicely with the "AA damage scaling with distance" idea.

Shadow Gilgamesh8/10/2017, 7:21:33 PM3 votes

My problem with current Cait is that they just number nerfed a character than needs functionality changes, that never really solves a problem, it just makes a character feel bad to play AS WELL as bad to play against (and it also makes it hard to call for functional changes that would be a nerf since you get told "this character has a 48 or lower % winrate, why would you want nerfs?")

I think she should be a champ primarily focused on her sieging potential, since there's already plenty of lane bully ADCs, we don't really need one of the best siegers once you group ALSO being a lane bully, I think she would be better suited as a safe laner with her E and large starting range, but with traps weaker in lane to keep her from just pushing you under tower, then dropping traps to keep you pinned there.

I honestly think they should have gone with the original nerf to the traps of reduced root time at lower ranks, rather than reduced damage. until they make some substantive change to her trap mechanics I think she's be a champ who has to be kept weak, or she'll be a lane bully who becomes siege queen post laning. I've heard lots of people ask for various ways to clear the traps, whether it's turrets being able to target them, or them being targetable when disabled by sweepers, but I think those would hurt her siege potential too much. I would much rather see less active traps at once at lower levels or less root time at lower ranks, so that she can't slap multiple traps under your tower range, farm the lane from far enough away that she can run from a gank, and then have time to dip in and headshot you if you hit a trap.

Daddy Ants8/11/2017, 4:42:14 PM3 votes

My biggest problem with Caitlyn is her traps.

The max amount of traps should be lowered from 5 to 3.

They should also not be allowed to be placed within enemy tower range.

I'd say apply the above changes to her W and increase her ATTACK SPEED GROWTH from 2% to 3 or 3.5%.

Do NOT bring back the Hurricane headshot interaction.

DuskDaUmbreon8/10/2017, 3:28:10 PM2 votes

Just one thing I'd like to see as someone who plays Cait is a shift of her trap CD. A bit lower in the early game (Traps expire before two can come up at rank one, would be nice to be able to have all 3 out at once), and a bit higher in the late game. Shifting the damage on headshots (especially trapped/netted ones) similarly would be nice (make them a bit stronger in early, and a bit weaker in late, so that they feel impactful early on, and aren't instakills in late). Maybe increase the range on trapped headshots a bit, too.

Her ult in early game could use some work, too. A minor increase in flat damage for rank 1 (half that increase for 2, same for 3) would help it out in lane. And the range on it needs to be less...pathetic. If I'm correct, Jhin's E (W?) outranges her r1 ult.

NotSpecialDude8/17/2017, 1:44:49 PM2 votes

Of all the adcs available, Cait has always been a mixed bag for me. Whether it be with her or against her, her early game has always been strong thanks to kit.

The most frustrating part of said kit is her traps. When used properly those traps could zone out players from certain areas and maximize cc done by your support.

I wish there was a way to deal with said traps but once they are placed they can't be removed without either activating them or waiting for the 5 min or so that they despawn.

However if they could be removed like wards can then they become worthless as an ability and Cait becomes a dumpstered champ.

Personally there might be bigger issues with her but this is the only thing I understand enough that I can discuss it.

Om3gaN3bula8/11/2017, 7:53:35 PM2 votes

I think her kit is fine because the placing trap under you is basically Chain-CC. I use her W like battle traps in game modes like ARAM, where I place her traps in a large blob of enemies and shoot at whoever steps on it. I really think her ratios need a buff not a nerf. 200% AD on Ulti plz >:)

Klavier8/10/2017, 2:55:05 PM2 votes

Well, mostly I've seen that people don't like cait because she is too dominant in lane. Whether she scales well into late game or not, she has always been hated for her laning phase, prior her rework people were complaining about this as well. Now that she has been nerfed pretty hard, her early game is not too dominant, mid game (which is her weakness) is pretty bad because she can't win as hard as she used to and late game, she doesn't scale like the other adc (at least in the AS department), she has to rely on her traps to compensate her lack of AS. In general, I think Riot and the community as well, has to decide how a strong laner is supposed to be, because at least in the case of Caitlyn she was only doing what she was supposed to do, win the lane. I hope it's understandable, English is not my first language.

Sir Fuzzi8/12/2017, 1:48:01 AM2 votes

The traps and the net together are powerful but both individually lend to her direct damage (which is what she's all about as is, it used to be both were just setup skills without the headshot proc).

Traps giving a headshot is fine, the net might not need to. Maybe if the net hits at a certain range it can apply a headshot, clearly defining it as a tool for her poke or her escape. Otherwise, maybe the net doesn't need headshots, or can backdash her based on a channel.

It's not that any one thing is terribly guilty but all of them together as they are mean she has a lot to work with for a sniper (comparing to Jhin, for instance). There's also the matter that her access to her damage remains very consistent, but her damage itself is very late-game centric, which can lead to her feeling pretty oppressive all around. More gating on the access to her damage early on would be a good step too.

There are some statements that getting close to her never feels like it's enough and I think that's accurate.

Kloqdq8/10/2017, 2:42:38 PM2 votes

I do agree with Yuyiyo about the whole theme issue within Caitlyns kit. However, I doubt we'll any work on a large scale for a while so I'll just comment to the issues I have with the current kit. The first being the number of traps. While yes, 5 traps never truly walls off a lane, it does create some rather annoying issues for players to have to deal with and sometimes there is no true way to get around them. If we dropped her traps by even just 1 I think a lot of the issue with traps would be massively reduced. Of course that is a bandaid fix to the greater scale of problems her and many marksman carry.

Another issue is her general poke and range. The current range she has is pretty strong and allows her to default beat most people in lane due to her range. Mix that with her build path just being Crit, she can normally 2 shot people before they can even get close, only enhanced by her headshots which in themselves is just a massive issue.

Overall I would much rather see a full scale rework to enhance the sheriff elements she is trying to be. Jhin is already an amazing sniper so really I don't think Caitlyn should be as focused on being a Sniper. How you could go about this is very tricky and I honestly don't think I have an answer for that. Caitlyn needs work from the ground up to be truly fixed.

Nekusen8/14/2017, 9:42:52 PM2 votes

I have a general idea for her:

Normal Autoattack: Small pistol with low range and damage (or not having autoattacks).

Passive: Crippling bullet: Every 4 shots she gains a charge of "Crippling Bullet", her next attack consumes it and slows the target.

Q-

Points an enemy from a dong distance. Hold Q-key to "aim", the longer its channeling, the more range it gains. (would mostly replace, and serve as her autoattack)

W-

Throws a trap to the ground with a wire (max 2/3), (can be activated after a short delay), she can reactivate them to stun a champion near the trap and deal low damage with it (doesn't activate by itself). Can only be activated if she is near the trap.

E-

Points at an enemy, dashes backwards while firing a Crippling Bullet to it.

Linna Excel8/15/2017, 12:03:52 AM2 votes

What is your criticism of the current state of Caitlyn?

Pretty bad, probably had a bad rework, and is overnerfed, but not the worst champ in league.

What do you want Caitlyn’s gameplay fantasy to be?

This is a bit of a problem. Right now, she's supposed to be a sheriff but seems more themed as a hunter.

I think I want her fantasy to be more revolved around auto attacking, getting hurricane 2nd or 3rd, and pushing waves with her Q.

What changes would you suggest to Caitlyn?

Undo the mini rework she got awhile back is probably the best place to start. Barring that, bring back the interaction with hurricane and pushing power with her Q.

FatedSaviour8/15/2017, 12:04:15 AM2 votes

i personally feel like caitlyn has too much of her power put in her traps, i feel like she can seige pretty well with her traps and headshot options, but maybe putting her kit, into more than one ability, will allow for some outplay, mainly shifting a bit of power from her traps, into her other abilities

TsunamiSS8/16/2017, 6:52:08 PM2 votes

Some backstory (ADC main here): since the 10 ban system, I always (and I mean literally always) ban Caitlyn. Since Tristana's proliferation in LCS, I decided to ban Tristana instead of Caitlyn a few days ago. My opponent, without fail, picked Caitlyn. As a matter of fact, the enemy Caitlyn was not experienced; she did not space properly, was not consistent with using her auto-attacks to punish my attempts at getting CS, and did not otherwise cancel her AA animations in trades. However, the few instances she did decide to abuse the champion's range, it was very impactful. So much so, that I found myself in the standard position of being under turret, tip-toeing around traps, and trying to eke out as much CS as I possibly could. Thankfully, our jungler was mindful of this and got me ahead; at which point I used my item advantage to starve Caitlyn and win the lane. Please note this is NOT the norm (i.e., junglers aren't as considerate as the one mentioned, especially in Silver).

The above anecdotal story leads me to my major issue with Caitlyn: her laning phase is incredibly potent, even to the average ADC player. She is able to farm and more importantly, starve the enemy ADC of farm with very little counterplay (all else being equal), in a meta where snowballing is the norm; she can then use her lead from there.

My core suggestions would be to center her power MORE around her traps AND headshots, while making her auto-attacks a less reliable way of dealing damage to enemy champions. In other words, if Caitlyn is not using her headshot proc as a result of her passive, trap, or net, her autos should do minimal damage. This, in my mind, keeps the theme of a tactical sniper in play. A tactical sniper will set up traps that are likely to ensnare the enemy upon which point he or she is likely severely wounded and/or dead. Alternatively stated, does a sniper really fire auto-attacks repeatedly with the same effect as well thought out headshots?

How this would look like numbers-wise is up for debate, but a base attack damage decrease and bonus damage increase on headshots would likely need to occur, with some balance tweaking around how Caitlyn can get her headshot procs.

Dr Mündo8/17/2017, 1:43:24 PM2 votes

So sticky threads for caitlin bo no sticky threads about the sworm bots in ARAM? f(o_O)

Drynin8/10/2017, 7:46:22 PM2 votes

I think if you look at her two major dueling identities (Being between Sniper and Sieger), you should look at Jhin (who came out around the same time as her rework, mind you) who also has a bit of that disparity, but very clearly lies in the direction of Sniper identity. Caitlyn is just too middle ground between them, and part of that is her Q, I think. I feel like Jhin's Q is much more suited for a Siege champ than a sniper champ, and so makes more sense on Caitlyn. I think that would resolve a bit of her lane-bully issues, as it's less reliable to harass enemies with it (unless opponents get too close or aren't paying attention to their own minions).

This obviously doesn't mean moving Cait's Q to Jhin, because then he would have two long range skill shots. I do heartily agree with Shadow Gilgamesh though. I think a Team-Fight oriented Siege champ is a good idea, but that champ really should not be a lane bully. A sniper is fine to be a lane bully, but a Siege champ should need the aid of their teammates to really make things effective.