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Vayne Main here. Some thoughts.

Satirical Butler··79 votes·5,398 views

Key Identities of Vayne:

  1. Weak early - no AS or waveclear.
  2. Top tier late game 1v1 champ.
  3. Shreds tanks (long fights)
  4. Lacks burst (short fights)
  5. Is batman.

Current Problems With Above Identity

  1. Itemization too easy to solve early game/waveclear weakness item 3087 item 3085
  2. Q crit is too bursty (2-3 shots to kill champs with no armor or health items)
  3. item 3153 is bad.

Thoughts: Vayne should have potential to outplay tanks and burst champs alike, but only through longer fights, peel from her team, and skill. She should be rewarded for surviving to late game and good mechanics. She should not be getting a free pass through her weak early game and bursting anyone. 5-6 autos, that's what should kill squishies. Not 2-3. If you auto an assassin 6 times they deserve to die. Tanks more like 7-9 late game.

Suggestions: Nerf Q crit damage, buff item 3153, and consider some additional rewarding mechanic for hitting 3 procs of her w (such as reducing the CD on condemn by a few seconds, or giving her stacking increased lifesteal for each time she hits 3 procs until out of combat). She needs to be doing sustained damage like Cassiopeia over longer fights. Also, item 3087 item 3085 need to be changed, nerfed, cost increased, or whatever. Free waveclear=free early game pass.

Honorable mention: item 3147, as of now, is garbage compared to the abusive crit build. It's something to keep an eye on in the future, but quit bitching about it.

105 Comments

Marshbouy25 votes

buffing and nerfing other items because of her could cause more problems in the long run. Just wanted to point that out, but otherwise good post.

Satirical Butler7 votes

{quoted}

buffing and nerfing other items because of her could cause more problems in the long run. Just wanted to point that out, but otherwise good post.

Agreed with that philosophy, however, I think these items are too powerful on many other adcs across the board as well as abusers like Yasuo. They don't necessarily need a nerf, maybe a slight cost increase, which would help with the free pass on Vayne's early game and lack of waveclear.

GULAG 4 U3 votes

Yasuo was strong the last season because of the itemization, he could get 100% crit from 2 items. When he couldn't he was pretty much Meh.

Ralanr7 votes

Then tank Yasuo was a thing.

ƒoes1 votes

I'll admit, I fucking hate Tank Yasuo.

I have over 450 games played as him and I hated everything Tank Yasuo brought. It brought in meta slaves, brought in high ban/play rates, further negative opinions on him and his players, as well as brought a playstyle so forgiving that it just wasn't fun.

I like his glass-cannon playstyle because there's a lot more skill to it than going 3k health on Yasuo and absorb damage like a sponge. Tank Yasuo was and probably is the most boring build for him by far because of how little you have to actually do. I realize how cancerous it was for everybody else and I sincerely apologize if you had to face it.

The build was indeed clever and useful for that meta, so in which I had to pick it up myself, but I didn't like it very much. It did, however, bring up some new itemization opportunities which I still use. I started to utilize more items on Yasuo and didn't blindly follow builds because they were good, I actually learned better item optimization for him. The Triforce > Frozen Mallet build was so goddamn boring to play, and while I still incorporate Frozen Mallet in my standard build, that's only because it is just a good item on him.

Probably my favorite build on Yasuo is item 3111item 3046item 3031item 3072item 3022item 3748. It's not widely known by other Yasuo players but it has damage, sustain, and defense. It doesn't go overboard on a stat other than damage, which is what Yasuo was made for. Damage, and primarily that. No excess shit, please.

WarlockLaw9 votes

item 3153 is weak on almost any champion that would want it. A lot of the champions that used to build it have ditched it for better items.

  1. Vayne with her new(ish) crit build.
  2. Jax has ditched it for item 3146
  3. Kayle builds everything else over it, even in her jungle build where item 3115 isn't optimal.
  4. KogMaw is better mid than adc, and is near the bottom of the barrel as far as adcs go.
  5. Kalista is literally the bottom of the barrel as far as adcs go.
  6. Shyvana has dropped it in favor of item 1419 + item 3748
  7. Aatrox literally who?

I think the item stands to be buffed (or removed).

Marshbouy6 votes

That's a good argument for buffing the item. Saying "vayne stopped building the item so it needs buffs" is very different from "literally no one builds this anymore"

So i do agree with you, it should be buffed.

Bunny Orange3 votes
  1. Twitch ditched it for pretty much anything instead.
GrReaper962 votes

Well they are slightly buffing it from 6% hp to 8% hp

Masala Chai1 votes

Some Kalista mains (There are at least 5 of us) have forgone the BotRK.

item 3072 ->item 3085 ->item 3046 -> Lifesteal or item 3031

J Eevo15 votes

I'm pretty sure Botrk is getting it's % damage upped from 6% to 8% already, so just throw in a nerf to the Q crit bullshit when the botrk change drops so her burst isn't so ridiculous, and she should be fine. The Q crit is hilariously powerful, and doesn't really fit in a champion which supposedly relies on W, there's no reason to build for W if you delete squishies in two hits before the w even triggers.

WoonStruck11 votes

item 3147 Seriously, everyone needs to stop building this. Its trash on her. The only reason you should be buying it is for the armor pen, high AD, and passive at 5th/6th item to make your Q crits burstier if you're going full assassin style.

The true damage is a bonus, not something you should be building around at all. It does less than your W will do against any given target.

~~item 3085 This is bad on Vayne unless you're putting absolutely no points in W for some reason. Makes it so you can never proc Silver Bolts if you ever end up firing one of the secondary projectiles. ~~

_Edit: Apparently they changed this one at some point. _

l Dárius l5 votes

um no, runaans works on vayne

GULAG 4 U4 votes

R u boosted?

l Dárius l4 votes

are you retarded? go into a game, even a bots game as vayne and build runaans ill give you my account if you cant (CAN you know what i meant) prove me wrong

50000000000000004 votes

You are completely right. I can't prove you wrong. You can PM me your account info to 5000000000000000.

Lady Hammerlock3 votes

{quoted}

item 3147 Seriously, everyone needs to stop building this. Its trash on her. The only reason you should be buying it is for the armor pen, high AD, and passive at 5th/6th item to make your Q crits burstier if you're going full assassin style.

The true damage is a bonus, not something you should be building around at all. It does less than your W will do against any given target.

item 3085 This is bad on Vayne unless you're putting absolutely no points in W for some reason. Makes it so you can never proc Silver Bolts if you ever end up firing one of the secondary projectiles.

No, no matter what Vayne's true silver bolts(W) WILL ALWAYS HIT THE PRIMARY TARGET, hurricane synergies amazingly with lifesteal

WoonStruck3 votes

No, no matter what Vayne's true silver bolts(W) WILL ALWAYS HIT THE PRIMARY TARGET, hurricane synergies amazingly with lifesteal

When did they change that? It used to apply to all three bolts, thus never being able to stack past one.

ProfDrDeath4 votes

Back when they introduced Hurricane? I distinctly remember Riot talking about hard-coded interactions between Runaan's and Vayne so this specifically would not happen.

woodvsmurph1 votes

Does it have a cd on the true damage? If not, go item 3085 item 3031 item 3812 or item 3072 item 3147 item 3814 or item 3142 . The reasoning behind the 2 lethality items is that it gives bonus true damage every time you "q" during your ult due to duskblade passive (as long as there is no cd on it's passive). That's a ton of bonus true damage. And you could always replace i.e. with an attack speed item if you feel you don't have enough attack speed. Ex: item 3153 or item 3046 . True you lose out on crit damage with these, but 1 increases chance to crit and gives you huge outplay potential via 12% damage reduction; the other gives you tons of extra sustain. Besides the fact that you might get bonus TRUE damage every time you q during your ult (not sure -- don't play adc), there is the fact that item 3147 disables wards -- which is a huge plus for vayne. If she knows when you can't see her, she can play way more agro, set up traps, etc.

50000000000000001 votes

Duskblade true damage doesn't have CD, but you need to stay out of enemy vision for 1 second. So that's kinda like CD.

woodvsmurph1 votes

Ok, thanks. That does mean vayne q should proc it pretty much every time while her ult is active. Which means tons of true damage besides the true damage from her abilities.

Onerios1 votes

Not quite. Your taking a net damage loss if you don't auto attack as soon as its available, and by the time you have duskblade your probably already at or over 1 as, so your never going to get the proc if your optimising damage. The item does mean you are punished less for staying in stealth longer, and the ward clearing is handy, but for damage purposes its inferior to other options.

woodvsmurph1 votes

You still auto as much as it is available -- which will be faster than q is available. YOu miss the point. Not only are you getting true damage because you are vayne autoing as fast as you can, but also you get the EXTRA true damage on your q empowered autos during your ult. Thus 2 sources of true damage. I'm not going to try to math out which is better or worse -- pretty sure it's situational to your enemies: squishy, tanky, melee, ranged, ahead of the curve, equal to curve, behind the curve, etc.

A Sexy Goldfish5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satirical Butler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XErtJtrO,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-19T00:48:24.516+0000)

Is batman.

Lol

l Dárius l5 votes

7-9 autos to kill a tank late game? lol you are funny and no, vayne should not have burst. the whole point of her kit is sustain damage, not burst, that is why she has a 3 hit passive that does 12 of your max hp as true damage.

Dynikus37 votes

and no, vayne should not have burst.

he specifically said she should be doing sustained damage similar to cass.

Earl Eulrich4 votes

ever palyed cass? with some gear you delete any squishy in 1-2sec.

Enloct2 votes

Well Cass also doesn't get any kind of % damage or resistance shred. She kills tanks with pure damage. Thus you'd naturally assume she's better at killing squishies and worse at tanks. Especially when compared with the definitive tank shredder of the entire game.

Battlecast Sona4 votes

but her damage is heavily gated behind landing poisons. Yes, she deletes people because she can build 6 items instead of 5 and has spammable, infinitely sustainable damage - but she doesn't have %HP true damage and it's not autotargetted (and her E without poison does like caster AA damage, lol), so she doesn't have the same problems as Vayne.

Dynikus1 votes

I've played a lot of cass, yes. She doesn't have burst damage at all. It's sustained high dps.

Hibeki4 votes

No burst damage

item 3031 + item 3087 + Q + R?????????

DorkunedAuras5 votes

Did you not read the post? They said that's a key thing they said she SHOULD have, and they complained that the insane burst is a problem with current vayne.

NJSP Trooper4 votes

Nice attempt to try to get more people to hate on vayne. First of all, you aren't even a vayne main. The ratio in which you haven't played vayne is much greater than you have played vayne. Secondly, vayne is a high skill cap champion. She has to get dangerously close to enemies in order to pop off her combo. It's not hard to counter vayne, get a control ward to counter her ult Q's and make sure you tell your team to focus vayne. Stay away from walls. Bait her Q tumble. She doesn't need a nerf. What needs to be done is reworking the items, but nerfing the champion and her abilities will destroy her unique play style.

Nameless Voice7 votes

Control wards don't counter invisibility.

Psi213 votes

Duskblade just wasn't game tested correctly. When your champion like Vayne is a tank buster why wouldn't you also then take an item that lets you one shot squishies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhMbPi0CHWA

New Duskblade was just not game tested. I mean look at Shaco. How can anyone say they game tested Shaco when you can crit more from the front on a Shaco Crit build than you can utilizing his backstab.

RIOT BALANCING TEAM really, I mean really needs to be reevaluated as to what they are adding to health or remaining interest in the game.

I am going to just say it now Meddler sucks at his job.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

I uh...

Viktor needs buffs. Reasons.

dominusx2 votes

yeh i cant waveclear level 4 wtf. plz buff my boy

Champion Skin5 votes

Vayne level 17... Viktor level 12...

And unless Vayne had lethality runes Duskblade proc only did 80 damage and Shiv did 217 (around 300 before MR)

Zonkman3 votes

Vi main here. Some thoughts.

What was life like before windows? I don't like the color yellow but some people do, but I think some people don't like purple so that's fair. Am i the only one who spaced out and didn't read this? probably not but i'm going to up vote it anyways because they used pictures. I like pictures and colorful things.

Votable Jester2 votes

Doesn't item 3085 prevent Vayne from stacking her Silver Bolts?

Also I'm pretty sure BotRK has a buff on the PBE right now.

Odinakos2 votes

No it doesnt. It is hard coded for Silver Bolts only. I remember about a year ago, a Korean adc was building it and explained that. He was building it when he needed waveclear btw in case you wonder :)

Votable Jester1 votes

Thanks :)

GigaPube2 votes

if you buy runaans on vayne you're a troll or an idiot and you should uninstall. you call bork a bad item and yet shiv is hands down the worse item, especially when theres 3 other similar items that can more appropriately fill its niche. bork is still the only item that gives lifesteal and attack speed, and yet it still gives AD, a current health damaging scaling, and an incredible dueling active component

stop copying sneaky by building runaans on vayne for gods sake. stop buying shiv when RFC and phantom dancer are so much better in pretty much every single situation. she does have burst, she is too strong right now, your suggestions and your statements are narrow-minded and i can only be thankful you do not have any influence on the balance decisions that riot makes

JVlasterQuinn2 votes

{quoted}

if you buy runaans on vayne you're a troll or an idiot and you should uninstall. you call bork a bad item and yet shiv is hands down the worse item, especially when theres 3 other similar items that can more appropriately fill its niche. bork is still the only item that gives lifesteal and attack speed, and yet it still gives AD, a current health damaging scaling, and an incredible dueling active component

stop copying sneaky by building runaans on vayne for gods sake. stop buying shiv when RFC and phantom dancer are so much better in pretty much every single situation. she does have burst, she is too strong right now, your suggestions and your statements are narrow-minded and i can only be thankful you do not have any influence on the balance decisions that riot makes

Stattik shiv > RFC . Stattik maybe do less base damage (120 vs 190) but Stattik proc can crit. Vayne crit build usually end with 3 crit item so she end at arround 70% critical chance. So its almost a garanted crit on tumble wich apply stattik shiv proc. Reason why Shiv is better is for the AoE waveclear and ability to crit. 120 damage at 200% is 240. Already higher than RFC and if you bought IE it add another bonus 50% so its a clear 300 bonus damage before armor and damage reduction. Its also magic damage so you require magic resist to lower it and in early game magic resist isnt the first stat you will buy unless you are a tank facing an APC. So Stattik shiv is hand down the best crit zeal item next to PD for Vayne.

GigaPube1 votes

i like this response and the math. i think if you want an ADC who can waveclear you should pick sivir. vayne does not, and should not, be an AOE champion. i think riot have correctly balanced her so that things like runaans and shiv would not be broken on her

so i guess shiv can be a situational item. i just think that if your vayne is assigned to waveclear at a safe range, the shiv proc probably isnt going to kill all the minions at once, so if you buy this item, its mainly to stop the enemy from having time under your tower to chunk it down with their minion waves, and not to last hit and get gold, which i dont really like. i guess if you predict that situation though, more power to you

apparently the magic damage that can crit, does mean that its a magic damage crit? i never thought about that. 240 AOE magic damage crit is pretty decent late game, for vayne "poke", especially if it hits more than 1 champ. with adc's usually around 30-40 MR in late game, thats gotta be at least 10% of their max health, from an autoattack that didnt even hit them

but then RFC gives you that deadly assassin/outplay potential. if you know how to vayne, and you're tryharding every game, you'd wanna build this item just for that magnificent passive. so you can buy shiv and sit under your tower, waiting to lose the game, or you can buy a real item, you can roam and look for massive chunks with moves like extended range auto - Q forward auto - condemn+W proc, or just run away still with a strong disengage spell. you could also Q before hand and just auto once and chunk them with both empowered procs, and leave having never been within 700 range of them. or best of all, you could be fighting, and/or kiting forward OR backwards. passive comes up, you proc it, turn around and kill em. not a likely situation? well its more likely when you have such a disgusting ult. rushing RFC, hit 6, ult, 100-0 any ADC at all. rushing shiv, harder to freeze, faster to push, more time under their tower means less safety in general. pushing as fast as possible with RFC? more outplay potential from a gank. not good enough to utilize vayne to the best of her ability by buying RFC in the majority of situations? dont play her or git gud :)

or just buy PD IE GG......or triforce cos her Q scaling is insane.....or bork cos the active gives even greater outplay potential.....or frozen mallet, because absolutely anything works outside of the pro scene and we should all let people do what they want, except for runaans on vayne

JVlasterQuinn2 votes

{quoted}

i like this response and the math. i think if you want an ADC who can waveclear you should pick sivir. vayne does not, and should not, be an AOE champion. i think riot have correctly balanced her so that things like runaans and shiv would not be broken on her

so i guess shiv can be a situational item. i just think that if your vayne is assigned to waveclear at a safe range, the shiv proc probably isnt going to kill all the minions at once, so if you buy this item, its mainly to stop the enemy from having time under your tower to chunk it down with their minion waves, and not to last hit and get gold, which i dont really like. i guess if you predict that situation though, more power to you

apparently the magic damage that can crit, does mean that its a magic damage crit? i never thought about that. 240 AOE magic damage crit is pretty decent late game, for vayne "poke", especially if it hits more than 1 champ. with adc's usually around 30-40 MR in late game, thats gotta be at least 10% of their max health, from an autoattack that didnt even hit them

but then RFC gives you that deadly assassin/outplay potential. if you know how to vayne, and you're tryharding every game, you'd wanna build this item just for that magnificent passive. so you can buy shiv and sit under your tower, waiting to lose the game, or you can buy a real item, you can roam and look for massive chunks with moves like extended range auto - Q forward auto - condemn+W proc, or just run away still with a strong disengage spell. you could also Q before hand and just auto once and chunk them with both empowered procs, and leave having never been within 700 range of them. or best of all, you could be fighting, and/or kiting forward OR backwards. passive comes up, you proc it, turn around and kill em. not a likely situation? well its more likely when you have such a disgusting ult. rushing RFC, hit 6, ult, 100-0 any ADC at all. rushing shiv, harder to freeze, faster to push, more time under their tower means less safety in general. pushing as fast as possible with RFC? more outplay potential from a gank. not good enough to utilize vayne to the best of her ability by buying RFC in the majority of situations? dont play her or git gud :)

or just buy PD IE GG......or triforce cos her Q scaling is insane.....or bork cos the active gives even greater outplay potential.....or frozen mallet, because absolutely anything works outside of the pro scene and we should all let people do what they want, except for runaans on vayne

Stattik in terms of damage is better specially during teamfight because AoE can do good against team that are close to each other. RFC is good in 1v1 situation and safety range to chunk good bit of HP from afar. PD is good for dueling to deny enemy potential damage by 12% wich is pretty huge on a squishy duelist marskman that is Vayne. Each game is different and item should be bought according to who you are facing and wich is better for how the game goes for you. If you are safe but need more burst and AoE? Stattik shiv is for you, if you lack that range to AA your enemy when you are usually 1v1 and want to freeze lane ? RFC is for you. If you want more dueling power to out trade anyone late game, PD is here. Every game is similar but they ain't the same.

TeCoolMage2 votes

Vayne main here. Some thoughts

"I wonder how soon I'll have to mow my lawn again" "I'm hungry, maybe I should eat at KFC" "I hope my family's doing ok, I should call them"

wait, did the thoughts have to be relevant to vayne?

Zelorxon2 votes

Daily reminder that we are in this current shitty situation because riot with their "identity" bullshit nerfed bork as they wanted it to become an "anti-tank" item, opposed to "must buy for every on hit adc", too bad they forgot about the champions and completely cut from the game an item as there are much better alternatives against tanks (which are kinda weird as now they stack hp and it's really hard to stack armor or mr as we did in the old good days), buffing in the meanwhile an item for completely different purposes and giving it an extreme synergy with a particular champion because they can't see past their nose when they go for changes.

Un-nerf blade of the ruined king and you'll see all these problems disappear.

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