I don't see much problem with this change implemented. Mages like 
could really benefit this change, as I'm certain that they wouldn't want to waste so much early mana on abilities to be dependent on last hitting.
Teridax6839 votesI think this is a good idea. My personal issue with the 5 bonus damage on minions was that it was this hidden effect that nobody could really know of unless they checked League's patch history extensively. Removing it, however, has affected quite a few champions negatively, namely mages, and specifically in lane. Shifting that effect onto Doran's Ring would allow mages to last-hit a little better in view of improvements to their autoattack animations (and I personally believe mage auto animations need an overhaul), and so in a manner that would be conveyed much more clearly.
The Yetii Rider6 votesYes, you have to read the patch notes to play the game. The patch notes are part of the client. Why should we make it easier on the kids who refuse to read them when they're right there after each patch?
Teridax6812 votesTell me, have you read every single patch note in the game? Literally every single one? Could you recite me from memory, without checking on the internet first, how Patch 1.0.0.130 completely changed jungle clears, and introduced a key jungling feature that remains in the game to this day? And if you can't, does that not make you, by your own logic, one of "the kids"?
The obvious answer to this is: of course not, and even if you personally did memorize all of the patch notes in the game to the letter, it would be insane to ask the same of every other player who plays this game. More to the point, it would not be helpful to players who have just joined, and who cannot possibly be expected to brush up on literal months' worth of patches just to look up one tiny detail that isn't shown anywhere in-game (and I'm not exaggerating; the 5 bonus damage was added on November 8th last year). Perhaps returning players could benefit from looking at least at the CliffsNotes version of the patches they've missed, so that they don't get taken by surprise when they pick a champion that got reworked, but otherwise the game should rely as little on book-keeping as possible. There is already enough to memorize in the game for players to not need to remind themselves constantly that minions take bonus damage, just for the sake of not messing up their last hits, which is why it is good for clarity that that feature got removed in that state. Taking an elitist attitude towards players who want to be able to play the game without having to memorize a dictionary's worth of hidden features helps no-one.
Terozu3 votesYou only really need recent knowledge.
macromite6 votesYou need a lot more than that, you need all relevant knowledge.
If you only know about things that happened recently, then you would miss a lot of other important things.
Terozu1 votesWhat i mean is, you know almost everything about the game, as long as you have a general idea of the recent patch, you dont need much else. Like you dont to know the last time a change happened, as long as it didnt happen recently and has been there for a while.
So yeah, relevant wouldve been a better word, mb.
Teridax682 votesThat's fair, but I still don't think that's entirely accurate, because there's a lot of hidden stuff that's been added to the game that can have a significant impact on gameplay. Again, just before this week, a lot of mages had their last-hitting in lane depend on a hidden global passive that was added about three months ago. Way before that, there was also a feature added to minions where they enrage if a team reaches a certain level advantage over the other, gaining massively increased pushing power. This feature isn't indicated anywhere either, and can also significantly affect how teams should play. Similarly, bottom tower also has fewer defenses than the other two outer turrets, and this difference isn't indicated anywhere. Simply looking at the game can't really inform you of all of this, which means that the only players with a full idea of what's going on are those who have suck around for long enough to remember those key patch features, which isn't good for anyone who doesn't do that. This is why I think removing that 5 bonus damage is a good step forward, because there are many more hidden mechanics that have a similar or larger impact on the game, yet are equally lacking in visual or audio cues (just an announcer line stating that "enemy minions have enraged!" could already help explain things, for example).
sir d wreck10 votesI'm not sure if I can agree with this. A long time ago I used to play mostly ninja champions, and one time after a short break I played Kennen to find out that the buff icon that said "This unit is a flippin' ninja!" was removed, causing me to lose the game.
DeusVult5 votesAs much as I would like to see 5 damage given to Dorans Ring, Dorans Ring is already one of the highest gold efficient items in the game. Tacking more stuff on just adds to how strong of a crutch dorans is.
Some mages should receive AD buffs, AS buffs (counter intuitive i know, but necessary) or have auto-animations cleaned up
NineTailedMystic3 votesAD/AS buffs would affect trading though.
Teridax682 votesDoran's Ring, like any other Doran's item, is very gold efficient because the purpose of Doran's items is to offer a huge amount of early stats pretty much just for the laning phase, without any further scaling. Making that 5 bonus damage unique and named, alongside that same effect on Doran's Shield, would allow just one Doran's item to provide it without it being able to stack, therefore bringing the passive back for mages in a more explicit manner without necessarily affecting their overall build decisions. If the worry is that mages would only start with Doran's Ring, then making it a unique named passive on Dark Seal as well could allow mages to have that bonus integrated into whichever starting item they choose.
On top of that, I would personally support cleaning up mage auto animations, because I don't think any champion really deserves to have an unresponsive autoattack, but I would not support AD or AS buffs, because that would increase those mages' harass potential against their laning opponent. If that is the specific intent, then sure, though that would carry some much larger balance considerations, but the advantage to the 5 bonus damage against minions was that it specifically did not affect poking, trading or harassing other champions. Even making auto animations cleaner is going to improve the harass potential of mages that receive that QoL buff. Because of this, while I wouldn't discount AD/AS buffs entirely, I'd definitely put them on a lesser priority than adding a bonus damage effect on DRing/Dark Seal, and improving mage autoattack animations.
DeusVult1 votesDorans Ring is 183% gold efficient just from its stats, not its passive. It allows for a double pot start and has a mana sustain passive.
Dorans Blade is 133% gold efficient from its stats. It has no passives and allows for a one potion start.
And in the truest fashion of defensive items, Dorans shield is only 52% gold efficient from stats alone. It allows for a one pot start and has 2 sustain passives + a passive to help you to farm (presumably under tower).
Yes Doran items are meant to be gold efficient but D-Ring is far more so than its alternatives and is in general a huge crutch for its users.
Teridax681 votesWhether DRing's gold efficiency comes from its stats or its passive is irrelevant; the fact remains that it is an incredibly gold efficient item, and so by design. Moreover, the purpose of any Doran's item is to act as a crutch for the user at the start of the game, as those items are specifically meant to cover for what weaknesses a champion may have early on. Because the 5 bonus damage against minions was itself a crutch for champions who had trouble last-hitting early on, namely mages, it would make sense for such an effect to be on Doran's Ring, a crutch item for AP users in lane.
SpaghettiVase3 votesAD/AS buffs would affect their early game poke and not just farming, it'd be better to just give the +5 damage to minions to dorans as most mages can farm fine after getting their AP/Mana item, it's just a matter of levels 1-6 that are a problem
RiotRiotRepertoir29 votesWe're discussing the best way to address this. Ideally we can go with something simple like small adjustments to base AD and AD growth where necessary. Not sure we'd want to add the Dshield effect to Dring, however, as that would also power creep things for champions that don't struggle with this issue.
Hibeki2 votes"something simple like increasing stats on every champion potentially causing problems instead of putting it on an item"
You realize how backwards that sounds?
RiotRiotRepertoir34 votesIncreasing various mages' base ADs by 2-3 and their AD growth by 0.25-0.5 doesn't seem all that horrible to me tbh. In very few cases would that actually consistently open up avenues to succeed in a pvp context that did not previously exist.
Also, you've twisted my words from "where necessary" to "every champion." Not cool imo.
Hibeki1 votesYes, I did twist your words. But it holds true.
Youre turning a mechanic that helped exclusively with csing into something else. Rather than keep the mechanic you want to make changes into something else, which ultimately does the job but can cause problems in other areas.
While increasing AD by 2 or 3 might not cause problems in itself, these are the types of changes that really fuck things up.
Just take the simple and better path instead of overcomplicating things.
AirKingNeo8 votesIt's a god damn mage. Their base AD doesn't mean much unless they're TF.
Hibeki1 votesWhile increasing AD by 2 or 3 might not cause problems in itself, these are the types of changes that really fuck things up.
kurnubego2 votesWhat types? Name specific changes. And portray a plausible scenario. Because now it's difficult to get an idea what you're even referring. What type of change is buffing some champions base ad? To what else I should compare it in your opinion and how does it ripple through the game.
Because now it strikes me as just flaming by intentionally keeping things vague enough. That may not be your intent, but thats how it looks like from the side. And hence -15 downvotes.
Hibeki1 votesMaking changes specifically for the sake of being more complicated.
Which is whats happening here. Instead of putting it on dorans ring, he wants to buff a lot of champions. When putting it on dorans right can solve the problem immediately without any real negative repercussions, he wants to make stat changes on multiple champions.
Making stat changes can lead into many unintended outcomes. But rather than do as the community suggested, they want to take the needlessly complicated route.
While i understand that 2 or 3 ad will probably not cause any significant problems, its this design philosophy that does. And just because it probably wont doesnt mean you should feel okay going through with it anyway, thats just a lack of care and laziness.
kurnubego2 votesWhat makes you believe that it won't cause more problems? I would argue that what you intend to achieve is exactly easier to achieve by giving treatment to each individual champion based on its gameplay and treating each instance as separate object. Rather than tweaking something which is a dependency for many different instances (champions).
In turn I'm not sold on your critique of 'lazy design'. For me it seems quite the opposite. Its safer to change champions than to change items. As many champions depend on items and it's difficult predict which part of overall equation will cause system to break.
Yeah. I just .. used object oriented programming principal in game design. However, I do believe the parallel can be used here.
Hibeki1 votesCan you name a single case where anyone uses dorans ring and ISNT a mid laner?
I can think of like, 2 cases of Jhin and Gangplank, and at that point who cares if they get 5 damage on creeps.
Also, its safer to change champs instead of items when the pool is low. He wants to make changes to a large selection of mid laners.
kurnubego1 votesCho'gath? The idea is to keep the status quo where we don't intend it to change. And change where we intend it to change. Well, obviously you've established that goal too. But we also have to take into account any future changes this might effect too. And it's no easy task.
Yeah probably it won't cause big problems now at least. But as you've stated earlier. It's better to maintain the correct patterns even in small aspects. And there are practical reasons for it. Namely, you don't know what the need will be in the future. So the modular changes are better as it helps to retain flexibility for tomorrows needs. Let me illustrate:
By changing champions you may actually differentiate the supposed benefectors. For example, do champions who have skills which empower their farming really need it? How it will effect meta if suddenly annie won't need to rely on her Q to farm as much and will have more windows to harass her opponent? I mean perhaps answers aren't all that difficult to find to these set of questions, but I feel you should catch my drift here.
I guess you view all ap mid laners as entire monolith and it makes sense to see it that way in one regard. However, I do view them as incremental changes per instance which happens to touch certain group of mid laners. That being said, the changes themselves are specific to champions, not to group, even if on the surface it appears like that (hopefully :D).
Luden Herself1 votesIn what way is what he said "making changes specifically for the sake of being more complicated"? I think the issue is a little more complicated than you seem to realize. There could be very real negative consequences for adding the plus 5 minion damage to dorans ring. What about champions in the bot and top lane who would be able to push substantially faster with the plus 5 damage?
Putting a pushing power passive on an item to fix last hitting under turret opens up the option for every champion in the game to take dorans ring, and could definitely have much greater unintended consequences than buffing specific champions who have early last hit troubles. These minor stat changes could end up being much, much less complicated from a balance perspective than what you advocate for.
Hibeki1 votesDorans blade already gives you a +8 damage to minions, why the fuck would they start using dorans ring?
If they wanted that they would be using shield, and they dont.
Luden Herself1 votesNeither of the other dorans items offer mana regen, I should have specified that in my comment, but being able to chose one item that gives both mana regen and doesn't have the drawback that dorans ring does would be the concern, not just the +5 minion dmg passive.
Edit: I think of pantheon, maokai, singed, jhin, ziggs bot, just a few that come to mind as potential problems. Also, I agree that last hitting for mages is a problem, I just understand what the rioter was saying about it being potentially MORE complicated to add the seemingly simple "+5" than it would be to buff certain mages by an amount that is negligible in almost every other situation.
TotalJerk5 votesTheir base AD actually means a lot when it comes to their early game vs melee champions.
AirKingNeo1 voteswoop de doo, give assassins +1 base armor
DeadUnborn2 votesziggs says hi
DeadUnborn1 votesI get where you are coming up from with having targeted buffs to mages that need it rather than buffing the whole class.
However I think there is some merit to adding the 5 on hit minion damage to the passive still. IMO a change like that would only really buff mid to low elo play (higer level of play can farm much better). Matches like Zed and Yasuo would stay neutral because it only really allow you to farm a little better under tower, while not allowing you to damage them with poke early game so much.
The only problem I do see with that solution is that taking dark seal on a mage would probably feel terrible as a first buy
also as a side note, with the base AD nerf to Teemo followed up by this change it feels awful to last hit with him. I feel that after a year of playing I have to relearn how to last hit with him every other patch
Luden Herself1 votesI could imagine that it would feel good at low elo, but I think instead of being unnoticeable in high elo, it could have abusive use cases. Champs who want to push hard but also need mana regen could end up using it successfully, and balance would need to take it all in to consideration.
Take Pantheon top for example, panth struggles with wave clear but wants to be a lane bully and spam q all day. Many higher level pantheons are the only people who even realize the minion dematerializer mastery exists, and +5 minion damage on dorans ring could have a big impact.
Zullar1 votesThere used to be a talent that added 5% AP to your auto attacks. It was really nice for last hitting. However it was also very strong on Diana/Teemo/etc.
Is something like this on the table?
Teridax681 votesDoesn't this also increase the early harass/trading power of those champions? From what I understand, the intent of that 5 bonus damage was to offer laning power that did not bleed over into more damage versus players, whereas increasing their AD would do just that, however slightly. Additionally, if the issue with DRing is that it would power creep certain champions, why not control for those outliers? This should hopefully not be too difficult to verify, because we just came down from a game environment where everyone had that effect: if it were to be partially reintroduced, who'd stand out?
Luden Herself1 votesPantheon is one that comes to mind, also perhaps adcs who liked dorans ring (ex: jhin), ziggs would be able to push even harder and poke down the turret, anyone who is able to push faster or isn't predominantly worried about missing last hits under turret would be a concern.
Akali is SO HOT1 votesWhy not just give everyone the free 5 damage back? It would be a lot less work than having to increase AD/AD Growth for a lot of random champs. I don't think there was anything wrong with everyone getting 5 free damage against minions before as it wasn't game changing by any means. Just bringing it back seems like it would be less of a hassle. If you end up having to increase the AD/AD Growth for some characters, then some might be excluded or not compensated properly and will still be screwed after the changes. I think just doing a revert would be a smarter idea imo.
Edit: Not to mention that increasing the base AD for mages could make laning against them as melees even worse than it already is.
Cosnirak10 votesEarly csing as Morgana is now awful whether with spells or autos. -_- Riot please give us the 5 damage back, whether on Doran's Ring or elsewhere.
Crede77714 votesThe problem with Morgana's waveclear isn't the strength of W, it's how minions move around and aggro in seemingly erratic ways.
If Riot fixed minions to move and acquire targets in a much more consistent manner, then her W (plus mana band and perhaps minion dematerializer) would be more than sufficient.
Same goes for Malz. I don't know how many times I've cast Malefic Visions on a minion only to have it take off down the lane away from its friends.
Cosnirak3 votesThe problem with Morgana's waveclear isn't the strength of W, it's how minions move around and aggro in seemingly erratic ways.
It's very much both in the early game. Her W is awful at last hitting until about rank 3. Even minions that stand perfectly still and don't swap aggro steal a lot of cs from it.
Eeyore7 votesOh, is that why minions kept surviving on like 1 health as I burned through all my mana on Annie not getting the resets?
BeatzBoyFTW5 votes[{quoted}](name=The Empty Lord,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwRrtFkM,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-02-24T20:28:09.593+0000)
Oh, is that why minions kept surviving on like 1 health as I burned through all my mana on Annie not getting the resets?
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/021/565/angry.jpg
Diamond3Kappa5 voteslets not buff broken wave clear mages ty xd
Sp33d Zer017 votesThe buff would be to early auto attacks on minions. That's not a big deal except for last hitting
DunkinNoobs3 votesWhat exactly is your justification for buffing every champ that starts DRing?
Naymliss3 votesIt's not a buff, it's a return to how early csing was last patch. It was already horrible on certain champions( 
etc) now it's worse.
DunkinNoobs1 votesIt's worse for everyone, and I fail to see why we should make CSing easier for mages that start Dring just because of the mages that never learned how to do it. I'm playing Vel'koz right now and CSing just fine. Ones of mages intended weaknesses is having a hard time CSing early in exchange for their waveclear later, and that 5 extra damage was a crutch that was making it too easy.
BeatzBoyFTW4 votesI'm playing Vel'koz right now and CSing just fine.
Aren't you a special snowflake.
DunkinNoobs1 votesAren't you a special snowflake.
A special snowflake that apparently has no problem CSing without 5 extra damage on autos.
Pika Fox7 votesMages have less auto damage and generally worse AA animations. The removal of the 5 damage global minion buff affects mages disproportionately, especially since they build no AD.
