We removed QSS cancelling Death Mark, and Pink Wards countering Stealth Champs.

Over Innsmouth··62 votes·3,731 views

All in the supposed name of being able to balance said Champions now that a single item doesnt invalidate them.

When are we going to remove GW and retune Healing Champions around it?

Soraka is the majority of the reason GW needs to exist. The mechanic was retuned to affect all healing instead of just self-healing specifically because of her. In my mind, she's the only one who would need such retuning anyway, since the other heal-based Champions function fine when it's not bought, and barely at all when it is.

Other heal-based Champions?

Swain needs to be in the middle of a 5v5 teamfight for his healing to reach maximum effectiveness. That's not the safest place to be in, his healing is also DoT-styled, and can be mitigated easily by burst. Furthermore, Swain's healing is tied to his mana pool, so the easiest and safest way to beat Swain is to kite and drain his mana, which given the current state of the game isnt tremendously difficult to do.

DrMundo 's main healing is on his ult, on a significant cooldown. It allows him to be more or less unkillable for a few seconds, but if he hasnt succeeded in whatever he was planning on doing when the healing is over, he's likely in a position where he'll die.

Vladimir is burst heals on CDs, and his heals require fairly decent macro on the players part. His healing also hits maximum effectiveness the lower he is, which means the only way he'll escape dying is if he's that much closer to it.

Aatrox every third AA. Very melee and very underwhelming.

XinZhao is like Aatrox but not as underpowered.

Zac has to step on his bloblets, which can be denied at all stages of the game and don't heal him for nearly the same amount as basically everyone above him.

GW is not a healthy mechanic, regardless of the fact that I main Vladimir. It's uninteractive, and denies stats that Champions have been balanced around being forced to function with. Imagine losing 40% of a core stat that you need because the ADC clicks on you.

item 3035 item 3036 item 3033

Oh.

69 Comments

Sahn Uzal39 votes

I definetly Agree. But lifesteal as a stat needs to get retuned aswell.

PB4UAME21 votes

Or removed wholesale from items a la spell vamp. AD carries should be squishy and not be able to drain tank in fights, or heal their whole HP bar because they killed a minion wave or got two crits on a siege minion.

Honestly, at the very least they should make it so you can only heal for the amount of damage you actually do. No, critting a 100hp minion for a 1k damage crit at 20% lifesteal should not give you 200 hp; it should be 20. How do you even get more health from your target than it had with a transfer ratio below 1?

Sahn Uzal1 votes

We both know they won't, so why even bother?

Catastrop3 votes

Well they did the finally change lifestealing off of wards, granted it took way longer than necessary. Who knows, maybe in 2018 we'll see change.

Brain Errör 4045 votes

No, if they remove lifesteal, some champs will become seriously unplayable. ADCs being the main ones as they will not only blow up, but thornmail will also be too strong.

bill8423 votes

Oh no, thornmail will perform it's intended purpose!

Over Innsmouth13 votes

I like you.

dragon1xx1 votes

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WqcAoK2t,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-13T12:37:49.360+0000)

I definetly Agree. But lifesteal as a stat needs to get retuned aswell.

tuned down, that is. or maybe just prevented from stacking to a certain degree.

Pierce The Veal8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WqcAoK2t,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-13T12:37:49.360+0000)

I definetly Agree. But lifesteal as a stat needs to get retuned aswell.

Ranged auto attack now heal for 2/3s as much.

Fixed.

Count Zubat1 votes

Make it unique passive so nobody can stack this shit.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

That would kinda kill the entire purpose of Ravenous Hydras passive though And it probably wouldn't fix the BT + Warlords issue, unless Warlords counts for the not-stacking thing

Count Zubat1 votes

Why it would kill the purpose of Hydra's passive? You would still get 6% out of Cleave. Besides, it's passive also makes matters worse when it comes to life steal stacking, as it gives you an AOE healing on top of the regular you already have.

When it comes to Warlord, imo, it should be removed and new mastery should be made. It's not like ad champs lack life steal options.

Chamuel854 votes

Don't forget Illaoi or Darius

Critmaster Garen3 votes

my question is, why arent they trying to

a) make mortal reminder and executioners grievous wounds a windowed active insead of a passive?

b) try to put some more restrictions on the passive, like only affecting champions below or above a certain health threshold? similar to item 3165

it would at least be some better attempt to balance the mechanic.

6Sfool2 votes

None of those items are healthy. I'd argue that it's because of the tank shredding more than the grievous wounds. GW invalidates sustain champs, but LW invalidates all tanks. I want the stat removed, but what is the difference between cutting healing in half with GW and cutting damage in half with exhaust? There are several stats that don't really belong in the game, despite being very central to it.

Over Innsmouth15 votes

The difference is Exhaust is on a massive CD and takes up an entire Summoner Spell.

If GW needs to exist, it should be on an item active that gives you a few seconds of anti-healing, but then goes on CD afterwards. LW needs to be more like Black Cleaver, so it actually facilitates the "sustained damage" niche that ADCs are supposed to be and Caitlyn can't just Headshot Crit you for 60% of your health all at once.

6Sfool2 votes

Making executioners have a downtime sounds like a good idea, but in the case of bonus arpen I just want it entirely removed. It's just adc's saying that tanks can't be tanky.

Also, are you saying ignite is perfectly fine as a spell then, or is it just less of an abuse case?

Over Innsmouth5 votes

Then AR items would have to be retuned, because otherwise ADCs and a good chunk of AD champs that don't have innate ways to ignore armour would be worthless. ArPen (bonus or total) does need to exist, but it's way too strong and you don't really sacrifice anything for it since you get the option of additional damage against tanks, or the effective removal of a healing-based Champ. The way an ArPen item should actually work is that every successive AA within a certain timeframe (think Jax passive) amplifies the damage of the next AA.

I think Ignite is perfectly fine. If someone used the...however long that cd is specifically to counter my healing for a few seconds, that's admirable.

Subject 52 votes

item 3123 I think this costs like 800 gold?

item 3165 Sucks to be a mage . . .

Axhliay2 votes

I reckon one of the key ways that you could make Soraka more interactive is by looking at the move Painsplit from Pokemon. It adds the HP of both Pokemon together, and redistributes it between the pokemon equally. Soraka shouldnt outright heal, she should redistribute HP from her team members + add a small heal. Tank full hp? but ADC 1 HP? When raka 1/2 HP? Take some from tank, give to raka, forward to ADC. This makes it so that poking her is the most effective way to deal with her in lane, and stops the outright full HP ADC heal spam.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

In fairness, Soraka probably wouldnt be so much of an issue if Bloodthirster didnt make it feel like you had a second one healing you as well.

TheTrueQuarian1 votes

I say make her Q steal health and add it to a kind of "pool" of hp that her W draws from when she heals.

Soraka Rules2 votes

Thank you for this post :D GW is pretty BS

Dengeden1 votes

They tried that didn't they? It failed miserably. I suggest kiting ADCs with your pool and Hourglass.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Vlad's ranges sit just outside of the standard 550 ADC range, and almost every ADC has some kind of MS item, so there's not a lot of possible kiting.

Besides, ADC's outheal Vlad once they have BT. Crimson Rush has a minimum cd of 6 seconds, under perfect conditions. In that time, an ADC could have probably Lifesteal'd twice their health bar.

JerulEon2 votes

Maybe Riot should just rework BT. 20% life steal + warlords is way too high. I don't have a problem with the other life steal choices like mercurial or BotRK. DD is situational on bruisers . BT just seems like the outlier.

Yatoshi1 votes

On the topic of buffing champs so they don't get countered by 1 item. Malzahar

NineTailedMystic1 votes

If QSS didn't remove Suppression, Malzahar would be so overbearing it wouldn't be funny.

Yatoshi1 votes

And yet buying QSS makes him completely useless. So maybe the problem isn't QSS itself but how his ult interacts with it? Remove the suppression alone? Allows them to get out of the AoE and either counter attack or break the link.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

That's currently what it does. The ult itself does no damage, only places the Null Zone beneath the target while suppressing the target.

Verdade1 votes

You forgot Illaloi, where absence of GW means you have to 5man her

Over Innsmouth3 votes

That is the exact opposite of what you want to do to Illaoi.

And if you're going to gang up on her, make sure you have enough cc to prevent her using W to activate her ult tentacles. That's the counterplay. That or just kite her, or ignore her as you 5-man push a different lane.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Actually GW and LW don't fully negate healing or armor.

What you should be bringing up is how there's 4 different items to hard counter teemo and shaco traps.

Red trinkets, control wards and duskblade.

Over Innsmouth4 votes

They negate them enough to turn them into non-factors.

That's a different argument anyway. Teemo and Shaco can do things besides their traps. You can (afaik) only place one control ward at a time, and Red Trinkets have a remarkably long cd.

I agree about Duskblade though.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Not really the point, QSS FULLY stopped trundle, zed, fiora ulti. Had that removed. Also had a long CD

Pink wards FULLY negated stealth. Only 1 placeable per champ.

Why da hell do teemo and shaco still have their traps FULLY negated by them? Not to mention 3 not one but THREE different hard counters and control DISABLES so not even miracle prand work now.

GW at least you can still heal, although executioner is an issue since it applies at 100% HP easily fixed by lowering HP threshold.

New LW is healthier because it's bonus armor not just total armor(Needs tweak imo though, it's pretty much a useless god item). Let me explain, it's pretty much useless until late or end game where it's a god. A soft fix would be lowering the penetration %, but while I have no ideas, feel like there's a better fix needed.

However trap disables need to dissapear and red trinket+ duskblade needs another rework. I'm find with the enemy seeing traps via control ward, but not a free item nor a passive effect.

Teridax681 votes

While I do think champions like Swain, Mundo and Aatrox also tend to have really oppressive healing when it's strong, I completely agree with the core point: GW needs to go if we want to force all healing to be both healthy and balanced without the need for a counter item. The mechanic does not feel strong even if it is tremendously powerful, which is why marksmen still don't pick Mortal Reminder even against teams with heavy healing and regen, and currently no Grievous Wounds effect has any real gameplay, or anything truly interesting revolving around the denial of healing. Riot has also recently tried to slap GW onto some champions on the PBE, namely Mundo and Akali on their respective Qs, and neither worked out in the end.

Over Innsmouth2 votes

Swain and Aatrox are confirmed for VGU's at some point, though I don't know if Aatrox's will be full-sized as well. I'd argue that Mundo is fine on the basis that it's his ultimate, and it can always use tweaking if it's too strong.

CD increases, higher %current health cost, or perhaps even a ramp up where for the first few seconds it's slower, but the regen really kicks into gear during the second half of the ultimate.

Teridax681 votes

Fair enough, there are plenty of ways Mundo's ult could be tweaked if his healing ever gets too strong, but at the same time, it's core to how he functions in most fights. It's a long-duration effect on a pretty short cooldown, which means it's essentially designed for very high uptime, and the way he accesses it means there isn't really a way to stop his healing once it starts, other than through Grievous Wounds, which is why Ignite tends to be very important against him in top lane matchups. It doesn't really carry that much counterplay on its own, and eliminating GW from the equation means it would/should be forced to be something his opponents can respond to, instead of just one more reason to ignore him for another 12 seconds (which already happens to some extent).

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Mundo's Ult seriously needs to do missing health. When Mundo is ahead that shit is outrageous.

Sasogwa1 votes

45 %*

Valexfor1 votes

The problem right now is that GW is most effective against (read it as: it's the only counter to) adc who build lifesteal, they drain-tank more than real drain tanks while dishing out absurd burst-dps... anyway GW is not bad, it should just be made into a bruiser/tank stat, it's not fair if an adc can click on you and negate your survivability while also taking half of your hp away, it's more fair if a melee champion comes into range and fights you thouhg, since you can respond to that. Imho, GW should be moved onto Thornmail or maybe they could mkae a new item like black cleaver that, instead of shredding armor, places stacks of GW (10% reduced healing per stack).

manbearswine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WqcAoK2t,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-13T12:36:01.730+0000)

All in the supposed name of being able to balance said Champions now that a single item doesnt invalidate them.

When are we going to remove GW and retune Healing Champions around it?

Soraka is the majority of the reason GW needs to exist. The mechanic was retuned to affect all healing instead of just self-healing specifically because of her. In my mind, she's the only one who would need such retuning anyway, since the other heal-based Champions function fine when it's not bought, and barely at all when it is.

No it wasn't just her, actually that change to not affect self healing was made specifically for her, after that failed miserably(retarded idea from the start), it was undone, but it had other problems, one of the bigger ones was that focusing the support was a lot harder, as even if you had ignite the adc would heal them to full affect, which made taking ignite bot lane a lot less effective and pushed the lane towards more passive play, it also naturally had issues with nami(try and all in nami, adc will heal her to full affect, try and focus the adc and nami will heal him to full affect, made things a lot harder than they should be), and then a bunch of lesser issues with the identity of heals vs shields(shields are basically battle heals, but that moronic change made heals a better shield), and what is to be expected from ignite(it's supposed to single out a target), it was just a horrible change overall made in an attempt to make soraka not as cancerous, which failed even at that.

tooomine1 votes

Meanwhile, Fiora is over here building 58 percent lifesteal and 1v5 ing WITH grievous wounds being applied so thoroughly.

I'md be ok with this change only if they rename bloodthirster's passive so that it cannot stack with ravenous hydra's passive. There are serious terror builds in this game, dude, and this sole item tnat you're compaining about is the one thing preventing that from being the only viable top lane build. removing this item, and GW as a whole, is bad for item and champion diversity.

Over Innsmouth2 votes

Had to play against a BT/Hydra/Deaths Dance Riven yesterday. Literally unkillable even with GW. Lifesteal is overtuned as fuck.

Count Zubat1 votes

Lifesteal should be unique passive, just like spell vamp was. Problem solved.

Noblewind1 votes

I find it mostly needed to deal with front lines like Mundo + Darius. They would have to be adjusted in some way. Without it they simply can't be killed in fights a lot of the time. Soraka is atleast a squishy target you can pick off first, I agree it's not a must have item just because of her.

ForFoxSakes1 votes

Something like bloodthirster runaans jinx outheals all of these champs even while hitting thornmail. GW is why its needed. Again the issue is ADCs

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