Anyone else feel that permaslows shouldn't be allowed on items.

Spicy Rice··15 votes·1,327 views

In my opinion, getting permaslowed by a Mage with rylais or by an aa based champion using frozen mallet is one of the worst things in the game. It almost forces mobility creep as immobile champs literally have no choice but to stay out of range entirely or risk getting chased down like a dog.

As for changing the items, I feel that for rylais, the same ability should only be able to proc it once every 1.5 or 2 secs. This would make it so that cycling through spells will still allow you to keep a good slow off, but sitting on people using dot abilities like amumu tears or swain ult or just using abilities with constant damage, like azir soldier

As for Frozen Mallet, I'm not so sure as to how I would change it without making it worthless. My best idea would be to have it so that the first auto on an enemy champion after 10 secs of not being slowed will slow and then after, every other auto slows.

Please post your comments and opinions below and please let's have friendly discussion

44 Comments

Malicious Metal5 votes

You nerf Rylais and Mordekaiser gets legit dumpstered.

He relies way too heavily on it that simple changes to the item will absolutely mess with his state of balance.

Sire Hippington3 votes

Morde needs changes anyway, and him beeing a mess after a rylais change might speed that up a bit.

Malicious Metal8 votes

Sure, "Speed thing up" and leaving him unplayable for the time being? No thank you.

foinhas1 votes

isn't he already unplayable?

Malicious Metal5 votes

He works, he's actually in a decent spot right now and dedicated mains can truly make him shine. Still, his state of balance is a very delicate matters as even the slightest changes can make or break him.

Subject 51 votes

He works but he is in the worst spot possible since his re-work. He was good before he was destroyed by his new kit now, he entirely relies on non-kit based power. (Rylai, dragon are massive pointers to the new Morde.)

Then is he Q that the enemy team would have to be as dumb as a box of rocks to let somebody playing Morde walk up with a third Q and use it. I mean I don't support removing slows on items like rylai and frozen mallet because then ADC's would be on the loose killing everybody.

Spicy Rice1 votes

Hence why I still want to keep their power as a tool to catch up to someone, but in the same vein, permaslows are ridiculous as they remove your ability to properly reposition yourself

Subject 51 votes

I think the problem is perfectly manageable with Rylai and very fair with frozen mallet:

Frozen mallet enables melee to actually chase Rylai is for spells, CDR's are required

item 3111

Sire Hippington1 votes

Those items can be just aswell used to kite on range while ranged also can use it to chase(Gnar ), shit goes both ways unless it's melee only.

Kanzaki Ranko1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wowd25JG,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-07-19T17:25:33.731+0000)

You nerf Rylais and Mordekaiser gets legit dumpstered.

He relies way too heavily on it that simple changes to the item will absolutely mess with his state of balance.

Sure but they can't use that as an excuse for the item breaking characters like Viktor and Azir while giving them tons of damage and HP on top of it.

Morde is a mess as it is, he needs changes that don't make him be trash or good depending on the balance of some item.

TWITCHTV ERONATE2 votes

not only him, some champs are almost solely balanced around rylai's

Narasimha1 votes

Eh, not really. Morde is the only champ that absolutely 100% NEEDS Rylais. The next closest would probably be Vlad, and even he isn't as reliant on it.

BloodyTompon4 votes

Rylai's is too frequent and ubiquitous. It doesn't give up anything for it's passive. I'm fine with the slow being like it is, what I'm not fine with is it being picked up on every champ in every game. I'd be fine with it being core on some champions and situational on others. That's just not the case with the item atm.

Mallet does this though and pays for the passive a lot, so I'm fine with that item.

manbearswine2 votes

{quoted}

Rylai's is too frequent and ubiquitous. It doesn't give up anything for it's passive.

Let's not exaggerate here, without the passive RoA is far better than rylais. It doesn't give up enough, that is true.

MohawkBird4 votes

[deleted]

statelesskiller2 votes

rylais gives as much ap as a ludens. gives 100 less health then a randuins . . . and has a passive that can be useful on just about any mage. it is 101% gold efficient . . . with a passive that is amazing.

by give up nothing he means that your buying this item for utility yet it has amazing base stats. why should it have both amazing base stats and a great passive at the same time?

BloodyTompon1 votes

Let me phrase it another way. The total gold cost doesn't factor in the passive enough. On hammer, it's a very inefficient item because of the passive (to go with my original wording it 'gives up' stats). Rylais is much more efficient and has few stats sacrificed (or not enough cost increase).

Sona x Rubick3 votes

put a cooldown on both items.

Critkeeper3 votes

Just make rylais only slow once every 6 seconds on a given target any time you do magic damage to it, and make the slow 50%, decaying over 3 seconds.

For frozen mallet, make it apply a stack of frozen that slows the target by 10%, stacking up to 6 times (4 times for ranged champs) and have it so that you can only have stacks on one enemy at a time.

Jeddy0173 votes

Why not make it similar to Braum's & Naut's passives? You can't proc the slow on the same target for a certain period of time. Something like 2 or 3 seconds. that way the target isn't perma-slowed, but DOT mages can still make use of it. Yeah, I'm thinking about Rylia's here.

As for Frozen mallet, it would be the same treatment but adjusted differently for ranged champs. Like 2-3 seconds for melee champs & 4-5 seconds for ranged champs. Yes, I know the only ranged champ who would consider it is Gnar, but you never know when FM become meta on ADCs.

Meriipu2 votes

I hate gnar with mallet so much

Ralanr1 votes

Try running from Vayne with Mallet. You will know hatred then.

zlumpy1 votes

Why does she need mallet? She allready outruns pretty much everyone.

Ralanr2 votes

Because some Vayne players are fucking sadists.

zlumpy1 votes

Juwt seems like a really pointless buy most of the time. Since her core items already give her a big MS buff with her passive. If anything a random zhonyas on vayne would piss me off. Just think how many teams rely on a very specific cc or ult to kill her only for her to completely avoid it roll away and plink you in the face without a reliable backup move to catch her.

BloodyTompon1 votes

a random zhonyas on vayne

I'm tempted.

WaterTribe1 votes

Well while you're at it could you please nerf item 3025 slow as well, thanks.

Arakadia1 votes

Its not a perma slow.

WaterTribe1 votes

Say that to ezreal

manbearswine1 votes

I think it's fine as long as the price is fitting, I feel that's pretty much the case for mallet, can't say the same thing about rylais, that item has been moronic for a very long period of time.

Spoofghoul1 votes

its just too strong on some champions then again mobility creep got us to the point where its almost a neccesity to have it

then again any mele without any sort of frequent mobility is just immediately made invalid by this item upon completing it so either they get more mobility or the item gets reworked or the immobile melee stay in an unplayable state.

It's just one of those things where there isnt an easy solution

DemoGuide1 votes

Actually i dont see a problem with Rylai, except for 2 champions: Azir and Brand. First with his soldiers deals marksman level of damage from safe range with permaslow; Second got stupidly low cooldowns after his rework, and now can permaslow you to death.

TIH coper3211 votes

GIVE THIS MAN A COOKIE

Sire Hippington1 votes

I agree. For FM, either go the enthropie aproach and tie the slow to an active, or make it a more powerfull effec(evt with cripple) with a per target cd(like udyr E). Like 50% slow+cripple for 2sec(1sec on ranged) that has 4-5 sec cd per target, maybe even with some bonus damage on the proc aswell.

Arakadia1 votes

Rylais is pretty insane. Especially on champs like Zyra who can zone a whole area with Rylais and Malz who doesnt even have to control his pets who run you down with Rylais.

zlumpy1 votes

More like is unable toncontrol his pets :P

ChaosReignsDown1 votes

Frozen mallet, like Black Cleaver, needs to me Melee ONLY.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

Your suggestions wouldn't stop Cassiopeia from perma-slowing you. As she alternates through Q and E on you - you'd still retain a full slow the entire time you died. Your suggestion also doesn't really say how it would deal with DoT abilities. Does the full duration of that DoT count? Or does only the first tic? When does it start counting until the next DoT hit counts? When the slow ends? When the DoT ends?

Though, honestly, I can't say that Rylai's make a huge impact on my games. Some Cassiopeia games I put it off until third item. Sometimes I never get around to building it if my team has the initiate and CC that I don't need it as much as damage or defenses. Playing against it usually just means you're forced in to a Fight not Flight situation against certain mages, but that doesn't mean they automatically win. That Brand tags you with a slow? Turn on him before he stuns you and you'll probably come out ahead. I've killed a lot of mages by R stunning them when they thought I was caught by their Rylai's. The only definite loss it would cause is if I tried to flee while crippled.

Also I haven't seen Frozen Mallet on anyone for months, not sure what to say about that one.

Spicy Rice1 votes

What by cool down in the particular spell, I was implying that the first hit of the dot counts then after whatever cd if the dot is still active, it activates again on the next closest tick

Daddy Ants1 votes

Ashe's passive as well.

notice me Sin pi1 votes

item 3009

PhDs Nuts1 votes

Rylai's needs to be a 40-50 AP item, similar to Mallet. It should be a great HP defensive item with a useful passive for kiting/chasing, but not be completely overloaded with offensive stats.

Anags1 votes

Frozen mallet is used on gnar and who else? Most melee champs can't afford to waste a slot on that item and adcs pretty much can't fit it in their build.

Liandrys is so much better in almost everyway. Great passive and amazing stats.

If anything iceborn gauntlet is worse than mallet. And if there wasn't so much mobility in the game it wouldn't be so necessary.

inplane1 votes

Maybe Rylais should work like good ol' Ionic Spark except it'll work in the style of a Caster. Cast 2 skills and the next one cast will slow. If 2 skills are too much then reduce it to 1 skill. That way not every ability would guarantee a slow.

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