Why not black cleaver on ashe?

Taran··2 votes·6,961 views

I'm only a gold 3 scrub, but ashe and jhin are my two favorite adc's. My last game I went black cleaver on ashe instead of last whisperer and it seemed to work extremely well.

Since her q pretty much instantly stacks black cleaver, and black cleaver reduces TOTAL armor not just bonus armor like last whisper, wouldn't cleaver be the better option against teams without multiple tanks? Average base armor at lvl 18 is around 80, so lw doesnt remove more armor than black cleaver until the person has 160 bonus armor, which is 2-3 armor items.

80 base armor + 160 bonus = 240 total Black cleaver reduces that by 72 ( 240*.3 = 72 armor removed) Last whisperer ignores 72 (160*.45 = 72 armor ignored)

BUT if they dont have 160 bonus armor, lets say they have one armor item for +50

80 base + 50 bonus = 130 total Black cleaver reduces that by 39 (130*.3 = 39) Last whisperer ignores 22.5 (50*.45 - 22.5)

So against a target with less bonus armor, cleaver reduces more armor, and unlike lw that reduction works for the entire team.

The only reason I would imagine lw being better on ashe than black cleaver is if A. Youre against a team with 3 tanks B. You really need grevious wounds But in the situation where youre fighting people who have at most 1 armor item, black cleaver outdamages lw and gives more survivability with the HP and movement speed and everyone benefits from the reduced armor. So why not go cleaver instead of lw on her?

14 Comments

Savage Devi5 votes

Too much wasted stats. The HP barely matters unless you find more HP elsewhere, her synergy with CDR is next to none, the Rage passive is not only redundant with all her slows but also poor because she's ranged, and you get less attack damage overall when compared to Dominik's regards. The utility of having your allies benefit from the armor shred doesn't make up for those either.

Cleaver also costs more, and Last whisper benefits more than an unfinished Cleaver, even before you up it to a Dominic's regards or Mortal Reminder.

redniwediS3 votes

CDR can be quite strong on her, but I'll definitely say I agree with all other points.

Taran2 votes

Yeah I was gonna say, all his points make sense other than saying cdr is wasted. If CDR was a truly wasted stat then people wouldn't rush essence reaver on her. Having a super low cooldown arrow, not to mention decent constant poke with w, is valuable.

All his other points make a lot of sense, though.

redniwediS1 votes

Maybe it's better to say that while CDR is strong on her it can not be effectively built due to suboptimal stats that come along with it.

TheOvermind1 votes

I was convinced that black cleaver was god like on Ashe. Your excellent reasoning and justification proved how wrong I was. Well done sir

Teemo el trolaso1 votes

It would be good as an early/mid game item, not late game like last whisper, it can replace essence reaver, for the cdr that is very usefull on ashe because of her ult

KillerKell3 votes

It's not bad.

It's just not optimal.

Last Whisper and the 2 Completed Items that come from it benefit from the very first Basic Attack... while Cleaver has to stack to finally reach the numbers you are discussing. Even on your Q, Last Whisper applies to each of those as well, while Cleaver still has to stack, it just does so faster (in duration, not in attempts).

If you are looking to 1v1 Duel, especially another ADC, then TBC would give you an advantage over them (if they have Equal Build but go LW+). So there is that... the extra HP they would have to contend with and once you got it stacked you'd be hitting harder.

I used to build a Support Ashe on Old Ashe (back when Slows stacked but at 50%), so things like Frozen Mallet and Iceborn Gauntlet actually applied when she used them. You'd be amazed at the Customs, where I'd face an Ashe building AD, and "Support Ashe" would crush her. And I'm talking not getting over 150 AD and still owning them, because I was just to Tanky and could kite them better than they could kite me (so if I took a Stun, I could get away... and if they didn't Stun I'd destroy them and they couldn't run).

But that was a different time, under different rules.

So what I'll tell you is there are absolutely situations where TBC is an idea... like you just want to 1v1... but it's never the Optimal Idea. There is always a better choice, even at Item 6.

Now, something you might try is keeping Last Whisper... and ADDING The Black Cleaver. Especially if you have an Armor Pen Page. You can damn near get True Damage.

AsphodelNext1 votes

item 3036 UNIQUE – GIANT SLAYER: Grants up to +15% bonus physical damage against enemy champions with greater maximum health than you (+1.5% damage per 50 health difference, maxing at 500 health difference).

15% is a lot.

Also, you get your armor pen item after your core of item 3085 item 3031 item 3508 item 3006 . At that point, the better purchase for damage against squishies isn't even armor shred, it's another damage item like item 3072 . i.e. in the situations where you would get a Last Whisper item, you would take it over Black Cleaver.

Quepha1 votes

Q doesn't instantly do anything.

Taran1 votes

Actually it does, her q, when activated, deals 5 instances of physical damage. It only applies on-hit effects a single time per flurry, but fully stacks black cleaver in a single flurry, or a single auto, so you instantly get the 30% armor reduction.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

when activated

The key phrase. Q is not available at the start of the fight. It must be primed either from attacking a champion (at which point they would already be fully stacked) or on minions or jungle monsters which are not always available.

SURG1CAL1 votes

{quoted}

The key phrase. Q is not available at the start of the fight. It must be primed either from attacking a champion (at which point they would already be fully stacked) or on minions or jungle monsters which are not always available.

this

Lady Hammerlock1 votes

Because -Ashe needs Crit to deal damage,hence why she builds crit items first -She is already a good tank shredder making Black cleaver unnecessary -CDR is a pretty wasted stat on Ashe,your W barely goes down because its cooldown is already really low,your Q has no CD all you have are E's and Ults more often

LAUGHING C0FFIN1 votes

A biiiig fan of Ashee and lvl 6 and continuing playing her. Never tried BC on her. Gonna try what u said and hope it will work. Wish me luck. :D

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