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I feel like Grevious Wounds is an unfair mechanic

kargish··7 votes·1,542 views

And I've thought this ever since season 1. It's too strong for what it does, and it's also extremely easy to obtain. Let's start by taking a look at one of the more classic hyper sustainers DrMundo . Mundo is a supposed tank/juggernaut, he is meant to soak damage for ages while being a decent damage threat if left alone. However, the mechanic Mundo relies on is regeneration, and that is completely gutted by an 800g item item 3123 item 3123 item 3123. It seems insane, an ability that heals you for 60% of your health is gutted down to 30% for just 800g.

So this is where most people will say that 60% healing is insanely OP, and I agree, but even so the means to counter this feature and make it "not so OP" is way too easy, a regeneration/healing champion can never achieve 100% potential because of the extremely easy way to break it. This is also a factor for why Volibear is garbage btw.

In my recent game I picked one of my main guys Vladimir, and I got matched against a Riven top lane. The first couple of waves go just fine, but literally 3 minutes into the laning phase, this Riven comes back with item 3123 and suddenly I, a drain mage, can't do shit anymore against her. Even though Vladimir is infamous for his extreme sustain (1k heals late game), it doesn't matter since someone can cut my power in half 4 minutes into the game.

There has to be a better way to make GW work, and not be extremely unfair towards sustain champions. A ton of bruisers, skirmishers and drain tanks/mages are forever in the dumpster as long as this mechanic exists in its current version.

Aatrox Fiora Olaf Maokai Warwick Volibear XinZhao all have their intended healing mechanics murdered by a 1000g item item 3076, and the rest are taken out by exe/morello

29 Comments

Azadethe13 votes

You're speaking from a Bias of sustain bots.

How do you think non sustain champs feel about Soraka + Vlad + Darius team that they can never even put a dent in because those champ's designs literally mean that their HP resets on low cooldowns?

I've seen Vlad's heal 2/3 of their HP in one charged Q late game, and then heal up again on R. How pray tell would you suggest killing Vlad, if he has that much sustain?

And then there's Jinx with Fleet footwork or Warlord's Bloodlust. Pure crit build healed/heals 6-8k per game, and train wrecks entire teams onces going. I've seen an Excited Jinx heal 600 HP a second while she pentakills an entire team.

You're failing to realize that the majority of your sustain champs, are also some of the largest damage dealers in the game, and average the least deaths, and even survive whole teams attacking them.

Your "heals" would literally have to be nerfed to the ground to get rid of Grievous, or your damage would have to tickle. Both of which would lead to much worse complaints.

P.S. A Mage can't even access Grievous until your HP is under 45% or Ignited. I've seen mage games where a Vlad literally cannot die because he always stays above 45%, as well as Mundo games and Swain games. Just had one earlier tonight where I was on a team of Nasus MissFortune Zyra Ryze Sejuani vs Swain Nidalee Gangplank Twitch Alistar .

That's 4 direct healing champs and an adc who gets life steal. We couldn't win a team fight, because lo! Alistar was aoe healing his team, and he in swain were front lining so direct attacking the other three was impossible, and everyone on their team built Magic Resist. I had a Morellonomicon that would never proc on Zyra, because there was no actual way to get anyone low enough to proc it, because of the heals on heals. The MF didn't get Grievous wounds, but did over 56k damage. The Sejuani refused to get grievous because "She's a tank). The Nasus also refused to get it, because he went full tank other than a Trinity.

Guess who won? After 7 full on war fights and 7 complete wipes, they did. GP and Twitch got item 3033 and shredded Nasus's Life steal and Armor, and we couldn't leave a dent in them, even though my team did more damage.

Swain Healed 22k Alistar Healed 21k Gangplank Healed 9.8k Nidalee Healed 16k (She was AD build)

So no. We need Grievous Wounds Bad. Or we need to lose the champs you play or severely reduce the amount they impact the game.

kargish2 votes

I don't disagree. But if you noticed I didn't say remove it, I said change it to work in another way, like stacking until it reaches max value or something. Cutting someone's power budget in half is insane, and for a mere ->800g!!!!<- It's too strong against the pool of champions I've listed, but against lifesteal users it's just about right. Any champion that actively relies on their healing capability, is gutted by 2 extremely cheap items. Yeah sure item 3165 is conditional, but that's irrelevant since as a team at least 1 of you can pick up item 3123 item 3076 and then apply the effects.

Sustainers are meant to stay alive, but as with your example about Vlad, he is literally built around it. You get some clear opportunities to go in, those 1k heals Vlad can pull off comes with information for when it's gonna be, you can always track Vladimir's Q cooldown and when it's gonna be empowered. Want to avoid him healing through his R? Spread out. If Vlad builds full AP he's bound to be burst the fuck out of, sustain doesn't help him there. But even then you can STILL be considered worthless with a 800g item.

Azadethe1 votes

Executioner tier doesn't last as long as a Morellonomicon or even an ignite. It's 3 seconds vs 8/4. Thorn = 1 sec and only applies to Basic attacks (Vlad doesn't Basic)

Vlad's ult is scaled to almost 1 hit, as is his buffed W spam. And his pool almost entirely lets him reset his duration on any executioner on him. Without Executioner being instantaneous, Vlad would beat it every time.

Keep in mind sustainers have a counter measure item, and some also have life steal. item 3065

40% off a SV heal is an effective 78% of heals are still going through, and most "sustain" champs are unkillable even before they pick up SV.

iLBGAMing2 votes

It is fair but the healing reduction needs to be nerfed... Because as you mentioned some champions such as Vladimir DrMundo become some what irrelavant.

But at the same time Grevious Wounds is essentially a really good thing to have that helps to stop champions such as Warwick Olaf Maokai who are rediciously hard to kill with the amount of healing they get.

My preposed change:

[CURRENT] Grievous Wounds: reduces all healing received by 40%.

[NEW] Grievous Wounds: reduces all healing received by 20%, units affected by Grievious Wounds for longer than 7 seconds increase the reduction up to 40%.

yonggon1 votes

Also its needed cause Overgrowth is Overpowered

YokoNomi1 votes

{quoted}

Also its needed cause Overgrowth is Overpowered

Which feels like a weak justification, since this has been an issue for some time. I eventually stopped playing Mundo as my primary, due to how easy it was to counter him after all of the adjustments and item releases have been made since like, two seasons ago. The fun was just... gone. Might try him again sooner or later to see how he is now.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Warwick and Olaf are the champions with the most fair healing.

Lios Ashenblade1 votes

I can see that, since they have to be engaged to get it, I think Nasus Garen make the list too, since again these are melee bruisers who have a means of sustain, and if they don't build at least a couple tank items, they will probably just get nuked in team fights, since they basically have to charge head first into it

Ayzev1 votes

{quoted}

But at the same time Grevious Wounds is essentially a really good thing to have that helps to stop champions such as Warwick Olaf Maokai

If those champions ran rampant after a GW removal, it should be pretty easy to fix that with just some number changes.

Azadethe2 votes

hell no.

Blåbæret2 votes

Yes, GW is a terrible design in every sense of the word. It's literally just a band-aid fix that has remained in the game for who knows why. With that said, healing needs to be nerfed should it be removed.

At the end of the day though, you may very well ask yourself why healing exists to begin with. It's unfun to play against. Especially DrMundo Warwick Swain Maokai Vladimir

kargish2 votes

I feel like Vladimir is the best example of what a drain mage should be like. He wins by stalling the fight, ever so slowly draining your HP down and adding it to his own health pool. This is the good type of regeneration. The bad type is being able to outheal DPS or being at full hp constantly in lane.

Lios Ashenblade2 votes

He is so unfun to play against lol, anytime you get close he slurps you up for a chunk of your health...decide to go in on him? puddle...puddle on CD? flash...puddle and flash gone? hourglass...into puddle

kargish1 votes

Perhaps, but I was talking about a non-urf Vlad version. We can argue whether or not Vlad is OP (runes favoured him a lot, possibly too much), but his concept is good. That pool you're refering to has 28 sec CD until he has it maxed and gets his hands on some CDR (16 sec at max rank with no CDR). Between that pool and Zhonya, he's pretty damn vulnerable. Vlad is only durable if he's allowed to sustain, and he does that through extended fights. Any high DPS target can beat him (minus fed vs not fed and such of course).

Lios Ashenblade1 votes

But when runed properly, he can get that CDR pretty quick, and with his sustain unless you have super charged CC, he is going to be a monster to take down, and still do really nice damage most of which is aoe

starelementpoke2 votes

I'd much rather not. I have a hard enough time not getting adcs lifesteal tanking me already.

woodvsmurph2 votes

You are ranged with a spammable no-skill heal that also does tons of damage. You have the easiest escape mechanic in the world. If you position properly, riven has to use at least 2 spells (e plus a q) to reach you and begin to trade damage with you. You were straight up outskilled if you lost as vlad. Your sustain is already too damn strong considering all the safety you get; grievous brings it more into proper balance of where it should be to begin with.

Mundo is unfairly hurt? The guy is pathetic. He's supposed to be a giant gives-no-shit tank who runs into the fight and goes where he pleases. Instead he is picked because in lane you can hide like a coward, spam q's from range, and take 0 damage from melee's. If they do dive past their minions to fight you, you do far more damage back to them than they do to you due to 2 percent hp damage abilities - one of them extremely spammable, ranged, and offering a slow to ensure they can never trade back against you.

Fiora has way too generous of a kit. Her ult damage needs to be drastically cut down and/or converted to PHYSICAL damage instead of true damage; either that or give morde's ult double it's current damage and convert that to true damage too - since he's supposed to be good 1v1 and is all about his ult or was at one point. Furthermore he has less safety than fiora and far less mobility - which arguably means his ult should do MORE damage, not far less and be actually counterable by defensive items. And even before level 6, fiora is capable of winning against opponents who are SUPPOSED to be much stronger than her early - even when they don't screw up. There's a reason even pro's and casters were talking about how bs strong her early game is for such a hyperscaling champ much of last season. This season it took people awhile to find her mastery/runes, but they've got one now and we are starting to see this all over again.

Giggling Granny1 votes

how its exactly fair to have all the champions you mention being in lane and you being unable to trade with them just because they have a kit that restore them HP?

You are FORCED to buy 1000g item that maybe is not even good for your char just so you can do something vs this champions

SO ITS COMPLETE FAIR..if you want to play no skill champions and just auto win lanes sorry but you need to revalue your life

kargish1 votes

Obviously not, but those items don't help you against those sustaining on waves anyway. A different approach is required there.

Jbels1 votes

Greivous wounds might be too strong against champions that rely on healing, but the other toxic mechanic it keeps in check is life steal. ADC's get too much out of it due to how much damage crits provide. They even get free life steal out of the precision tree, and should they go domination secondary, have even more sustain options. The problem is, it's still shit design because only mages have a viable item that applies GW, unless both ADCs buy GW to try and counter each other's BS life steal (which they won't)

These champions get the raw end of the deal because of it, and it really sucks. Also, somebody mentioned Garen, but Garen's built in healing doesn't factor into GW because his healing disappears during combat, and doesn't come back until after GW finishes

Spoofghoul1 votes

the better way to make it work is to remove it from core items and put it on different ones

make it not work on health regen so there is at least 1 way of sustaining left

and make it less stupid using 1 auto or random spell or dot to reduce healing for a century is dumb af

Daddy Ants1 votes

Grievous Wounds is fair while DrMundo Soraka Vladimir and other drain champions exist.

Poske1 votes

Ugh yes grevious wounds shouldnt be at so high percentage

But there so many reasons why volibear is garbage

We would have to prenerf maokai and vladimir if we want lower %healing reduction

kargish1 votes

But as I said it's only a factor for Volibear.

I can agree on Vlad+Mao, but there just has to be a better way to implement than simply auto attacking once and then nullifying a massive part of their sustain.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

GW is terribly implementet mechanic,but it's needed for comps that too much sustain.

My biggest concerns are;

  1. It's on mandatory item,where those items with GW should be niche-picks and feel like you actually invested into countering the opponent,tho they shouldm't feel like a lack luster item in your slot.

  2. Giving a % healing reduction on all sources of healing is kinda lazy.Healing comes in different mechanics so GW should interact differently which each type.Myb it could reduce some,myb delay others,gain full heal and lose a % of over Xsec? RITO figure it.

GW has a place i this game,just in a more interesting variation IMO

xelaker1 votes

always wondered why item 3123 doesn't just give a bit less gw, like 30% then gets an upgrade when you finish the item.

SooFr0sty1 votes

They should make grevious wounds apply 10% or whatever number up to 50%

junglerboy161 votes

I'd prefer some sort of stacking mechanic personally, not related at all to the health percentage of the target (since that's way too arbitrary and actually even harsher on the majority of sustain based champs who play around a low health pool). Grievous wounds as a concept is simple; you inflict extreme damage in a way that it is difficult to heal from. What makes more sense is for grievous wounds to build up because the longer you fight the more of a beating you take and the more severe your injuries.

Something like this using item 3123 just to be clear, but I'd want roughly the same for all (and keep in mind this is just a suggestion, numbers are just to give an idea how it could work):

  • Grievous wounds: Unique passive: Basic attacks apply a stacking debuff to the target on-attack, reducing the healing they receive by a certain percentage based on the current number of stacks. Stacks last for 1.5 seconds and fall off one at a time, reducing healing by twice the previous stack's value, max 7 stacks.
  • Heal Reduction: 1% / 2% / 4% / 8% / 16% / 32% / 64%

This works for at least the AD variation because it forces the carry to focus the tank down to shut down their healing (stacks drop off to non-threatening levels fairly quickly), in which case both they and the tank are doing what they're supposed to, drawing aggro and dealing focused DPS respectively.

A variant for defense and an AP item would have to alter the stacking speed because they aren't applying damage as quickly or consistently, possibly something like "Spell hits (or damage return procs for bramble) apply two stacks of grievous wounds" (most mages don't have the cooldowns to keep full stacks otherwise, and the ones who do could be tuned appropriately).

Perks of a stacking mechanic:

  • Allows more counterplay for both parties involved (exit the fight until a couple stacks fall off and go back in, focus targets for more effective GW).
  • Allows someone to achieve even more powerful grievous wounds for countering that insane Mundo+Soraka combo the enemy team has going, but requires focusing a literal health wall, which is a strategic trade-off.
  • Feels fairer for short trades (especially in laning phase) without sacrificing the legitimate threat that GW should offer in an all out fight.
  • Works in a way where GW can share a single debuff passive and tuning is based around speed of stacking for various items (e.g. multiple stacks per proc? stacks start at X number? stacks fall off in this amount of time, etc.)
Ariel the Cruel1 votes

I disagree GW is OP. It's the primary factor keeping champions like Vlad, Mundo, and Soraka in check. I do agree it's too easy to obtain.

Riot has 2 problem when it come to grievous wounds.

  1. Without GW, you have no effective way to deal with sustain heavy champs.
  2. With GW, you have to balance those champs around the assumption that the opponent will always buy GW.

Personal approach (had I the power): Make GW situational. What this means is, reduce passive application and make it something that both parties have to play around. This lets people have a response to sustain, while not mandating that Sustain be viable through the response. Good examples of GW implementation under this concept: Varus E, MF ult, Kat's ult, Ignite. Bad examples are Executioner's, and bramble vest. Of course, GW shouldn't be a champion specific counter. So examples of how the items could be replaced for general use. . . Bramble Vest: Half effect VS melee champions. Bramble is meant as a response to ADC lifesteal. It does it's job reasonably well for that. This change is just meant to ease the burden a bit on people that actually have to close the gap. Thornmail: Deals double damage to shields. The goal of thorn mail to to make tanks not a walking med-kit for the enemy ADC. The damage is already negligible and shields aren't meant to be an ADC tool anyway. Executioner's Calling: I love this item. Probably because it's a staple buy on Janna (for some reason). But remove and replace it with below. Executioner's hood: Support item. +health. Passive: Deal 5-15 bonus damage on-hit, doubled against non-champions. Active: Create a <Varus E> for 5 seconds that inflict Grevious Wounds on enemies that touch it for 2 seconds; 100 second CD. Morellonomicon: Reshuffle the stats to make this not a rush item. I like the idea of Morello being used to secure kills, and not a general counter. That said, making it a rush item for every mage in the game seems a tad unfair when the goal is to make GW a situational effect. All the sustain heavy problem champions: Nerfed sustain. You had to see this coming. With GW becoming a lot harder to apply, Riot doesn't need to balance these champion in the assumption that it will always be in play. This should make dealing with them feel a bit more fair for everyone else.

Bring on the down-votes.

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