I think the Blackout passive on Duskblade is too strong

Silent Pace·Jul 21, 2017·65 votes·2,836 views

I mean it persists for 8 seconds and two or three people always have one so they just walk through our jungle and clear all our wards wtf

40 Comments

Zero Skill TankJul 21, 201716 votes

Not only it is too strong, it is just terribly designed. It grants buttload of power, while enemy side gets no real counterplay (where you place your wards doesn't really matter), and no realistic possibilities of counterbuilding (you can get multiple sighstones, but you would gimp your team stats, and since it can act against multiple wards it doesn't really help either).

Damage proc is pretty much fine, but blackout just makes the cancerest champions in the game even less fun to face.

lil kodaJul 22, 20175 votes

the damage proc is not fine, its way too high. the item is just stupid

DurzakaJul 22, 201717 votes

What? Thats like complaining that Oracles grants no counter building or counter play.

The counterplay is to collapse on them when they are clearing wards. if you arent in a position to do that, you got outplayed.

ShahamutJul 22, 20173 votes

Last I checked, it doesn't disable the ward, so you still have vision of them as they are clearing it. That is information you get to have, which can prevent a gank from happening.

Its not so much that it has no counterplay, as much as it is it cheapens the value of that ward slightly if it wasnt just about to expire.

DurzakaJul 22, 20175 votes

Oracles disables Wards.

SzGamer227Jul 22, 20171 votes

This thread is about Duskblade buddy. Get with the program.

DurzakaJul 22, 20173 votes

Yes. But the person I am originally replying to specifically say it was bad design design and no counter play or counter building because of the vision blocking.

oracles does the exact same thing.

maliohammadJul 22, 20172 votes

with oracle you are paying a ward slot , so it is not free . while with duskblade , it is just an extra you get for free with the already too strong item

DurzakaJul 22, 20171 votes

So?

That doesnt mean there is counterbuild and counterplay to it. There is a price for oracles. But considering its taken by 80% of people by the end of most games id say the price is pretty low.

Also, you get to choose when you use oracles. Duskblade gets popped automatically.

TheCharmingCharmJul 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Also, you get to choose when you use oracles. Duskblade gets popped automatically.

Exactly the point xD

With oracles, you can somewhat counter it by putting it in spots where you think the enemy wont activate it to check for wards. But with duskblade, the enemy just has to walk near the damned thing and the ward will pop up, even if the owner of the duskblade wasn't even looking for wards.

Oracles is an item that is free but takes up the spot of your trinket, and you have to know when and where to use it, with the intent of finding and destroying wards.

With duskblade, its a passive that automatically goes off when you walk near a ward. Even if you're just walking through the jungle to go take the enemy's raptor camp or something random like that. You don't have to put any effort in at all to find and get rid of a ward. on top of that (unless this has been changed) you can spot more than one ward at once if you happen to walk by another ward while the passive is still active. on top of THAAAT, duskblade also offers the buyer a ton of ad and a nice chunk of lethality, not to mention the other passive the item has.

TL;DR: U have to activate oracles and look for wards and it takes up the trinket spot. While duskblade just magically finds them for u and u don't have to put in any effort to do so, duskblade also gives u a ton of stats on top of another passive.

SzGamer227Jul 22, 20171 votes

[deleted]

DurzakaJul 22, 20171 votes

Thats irrelevant. Because either way he is wrong.

Both Oracles and Duskblade disable wards.

SzGamer227Jul 22, 20171 votes

Shit, yeah, my b.

I'd like to add though that if you notice your ward go dark before it expires, you shouldn't need to actually see the gank to know it's coming.

maliohammadJul 27, 20171 votes

and you will time all of your wards ? sometimes you don't notice if it had 5 or 3 seconds and think it expired

Zero Skill TankJul 22, 20176 votes

Oracles can be played around by placing your wards where your enemies don't expect them, and where they don't see you placing them. This doesn't work with duskblade.

With blackout proc, to prevent clearing the ward, you would need to 'collapse' on someone who you didn't get any chance to spot beforehand, because it will automatically proc on the very first ward when it comes off CD. That's not the case with Oracle's, place deeper wards will give you info beforehand.

Calling that a feasible counterplay is nonsense, but even if we accept that, it's like 10% of counterplay Oracle's gets. Blackout dumbs down vision game, that's a fact.

PhDs NutsJul 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WbuI2nxA,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2017-07-22T06:01:48.895+0000)

Oracles can be played around by placing your wards where your enemies don't expect them, and where they don't see you placing them. This doesn't work with duskblade.

With blackout proc, to prevent clearing the ward, you would need to 'collapse' on someone who you didn't get any chance to spot beforehand, because it will automatically proc on the very first ward when it comes off CD. That's not the case with Oracle's, place deeper wards will give you info beforehand.

Calling that a feasible counterplay is nonsense, but even if we accept that, it's like 10% of counterplay Oracle's gets. Blackout dumbs down vision game, that's a fact.

The irony of collapsing onto an assassin. If your solo lane gets there first, he dies first anyway.

Hyrum GraffJul 22, 20176 votes

For Oracle's, you give up the other trinkets. Duskblade doesn't sacrifice much in the way of combat stats.

Synnx7Jul 23, 20171 votes

Sooner ppl like you will also call "outplay" that u got critted for 2k dmg with a 0.5% chance proc. "outplay, not obvious RNG"

aspects1Jul 22, 20173 votes

item 3364

Pierce The VealJul 21, 20172 votes

I agree. As someone who tried duskblade and faced duskblade, the hidden power that passive grants is way too much.

TengrichanJul 21, 20172 votes

I think it's time to put the item into an indefinitive maintenance until it's actually fixed.

DanjengJul 22, 20172 votes

Doesn't really seem like an assassin item's ability to disable wards, because the enemy team will know you are near the ward. Also 8 seconds is quite a long time for an active effect in this fast-paced game, moreso for an assassin.

Perhaps Blackout can be altered (heh) to be a bit different from Oracles to set it apart. For example, the ability to detect nearby enemy ward(s) before walking into its vision range, allowing the duskblade user to avoid it. No vision is lost. Detection will not reveal the ward itself, it will merely highlight its range, so the assassin can navigate past it.

BârdJul 22, 20171 votes

It's worth noting that most assassins don't really build a whole lot of attack speed.

Say you are playing Zed and have 0.7 attack speed with some AS marks (ballpark number).

0.7 attacks per second equates to 1.42 seconds per attack, or 4.3 seconds to destroy a ward.

Even if you reveal multiple wards with this spell, you won't be able to kill more than one of them without help.

Destroying one ward every so often is strong, but not too egregious.

ADC's building it are a different matter, but I digress.

Fenn76Jul 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's worth noting that most assassins don't really build a whole lot of attack speed.

Say you are playing Zed and have 0.7 attack speed with some AS marks (ballpark number).

0.7 attacks per second equates to 1.42 seconds per attack, or 4.3 seconds to destroy a ward.

Even if you reveal multiple wards with this spell, you won't be able to kill more than one of them without help.

Destroying one ward every so often is strong, but not too egregious.

ADC's building it are a different matter, but I digress.

That's not correct. The first attack is immediate (save for a brief wind-up), followed by 2 cooldowns of 1.42.

ChaosThiefJul 22, 20173 votes

No, I disagree. It is something an assassin would want to do (destroy wards). They want to prepare ambushes, flank, avoid getting spotted overall. Blackout is a good fit for helping this.

I think, however, it should not be on duskblade with the damage effect. Split the effect to another item, maybe give duskblade a bit more AD or something to compensate, but being given an offensive and supportive/defensive tool on a single item is a little too much.

DanjengJul 22, 20171 votes

Being able to know the location of wards allows the duskblade user to prepare ambushes, flank, avoid getting spotted overall Through the means of not walking near them. Disabling wards would reveal the location of the assassin, as the enemy team would notice than their wards suddenly have vastly lower vision range, along with an X over them.

Duskblade's passive is more or less Oracle's Alteration, which is oftentimes used by supports. I suggested to make it more assassin-y than just slapping an oracle's on top of it. The ability to navigate around wards seems more assassin-y than going through them, imo. It also requires more creativity both on the parts of where wards are placed, and how the assassin gets to bypass them. The main point of this thread is that the ability to deny vision is too strong, after all. My idea does not deny any vision, it would only promote more thorough warding. Besides, blast cones are great for passing them.

BoilTheOilJul 22, 20172 votes

its also very cheap 2900 gold

NightOfLightJul 22, 20171 votes

They should remove the passive from it and move it onto a different item in my opinion atm it feels like it was added onto the item as a bonus rather than being the focus of the item. Maybe move it onto an item that has no passive like warrior and rename it into something like stalkers.

Silent PaceJul 22, 20171 votes

That actually sounds a lot better.

Oni MasterJul 22, 20171 votes

Blackout is a strong passive and it should function like the blue trinket nerf a la long cooldown early on and it gets lower as you level. The biggest problem is the stupid bonus damage it gives. Is anyone seriously going to try to say that nearly 400 bonus damage is okay? With a crazy slow tacked on because "???"? The damage is too high and the built-in armor pen synergizes with itself.

KyunseiJul 22, 20171 votes

I think you can remove the "the Blackout passive on" sentence of your topic. I think "" Duskblade is too strong

Envoy of MelodyJul 22, 20171 votes

I wish it would just warn the user of wards, not actually reveal them. You're an assassin, not your team's clean up guy. Kinda like Eve has a red exclamation mark above her head. And it's only getting worse once the Rune system arrives. Zombie Ward, I needn't say more.

DRAGOON BurstJul 22, 20171 votes

It should only grant vision of the ward that saw you.

PurpleKingCrazyJul 22, 20171 votes

Maybe this is quite philosophical but if there would be an item for mages that could also potentially clear wards and be as strong as ever would supports pick it up?

TálØnlyJul 22, 20171 votes

It had that passive before and no one cried about it, lmao.

InstaPoppyJul 22, 20171 votes

As a support main, yea right now its dumb but its honestly fine when it goes back to being a niche assassin item that issen't seen every game like it was before.

DeadUnbornJul 22, 20171 votes

The problem is that the item is too powerfull right now. Ideally only one or two champs per game should by that item AT MOST. If only one assassin is clearing one ward every so often then it isn't as bad

invisiblecat1Jul 22, 20171 votes

I think it is supposed to be the way to effectively get the passive into effect, but it literally makes no difference in the passive, since it persists for 5 seconds after being seen, giving you PLENTY of time to attack the enemy

Sire HippingtonJul 23, 20171 votes

Vision controll is just pretty powerfull, so it should be obvious that slapping it on an already combat effective item might cause issues. There also is a reason why pros (nearly) always go for the ward enchant in the jungle...