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So Riot. Is there ANY plans to rework Pet AI so that they're not so frustratingly indecisive?

5G8Nri0B54··21 votes·2,330 views

Malzahar 's Voidlings. Annie 's Tibbers. Yorick 's bitches.

Do you know what all 3 of these champion's pets have in common that's a problem? (asides from the fact that they are afterthoughts with zero gameplay after they're summoned)

They have the most frustrating AI I've ever had to deal with! They're indecisive as heck. Their power level is questionable at worst and hidden power at best. They sometimes just sit there not doing anything. They die upon the master's death. They pace between you and the enemy until their timers are up!

You want an analogy to truly get at the problem with pets?

-Let's take Annie 's Tibbers as an example

Imagine Annie and the enemy champion are a married couple getting a divorce, and Tibbers is the child who is to blame for the divorce and now he must choose between mommy (Annie) and daddy (the other champion). What SHOULD happen is Tibbers be indecisive and leave mommy for daddy. But what REALLY is the stupid kid finds himself having trouble choosing between mommy or daddy so instead of committing, he just paces back and forth.

-Let's take Malzahar's Voidlings as an example

Voidlings are little kids. Malzie is a father struggling to get his kid to go to kindergarten and the enemy champion is the kindergarten teacher in the first day of school. The entire time daddy is struggling to get his clingy little brats to go to kindergarten class but the kids instead chooses to hug daddy's leg instead. The only way daddy can get the kids to go to their teacher is if he lathers the teacher with purple jam (Malefic Vision), in which case the kids go and lick the jam up until it's all gone...

You've done your VU's, your TU's, your remakes that wrecked champions or made them more fun. You've updated SR, you're messed around with the jungle again, you somehow made WW OP.

So how about you take a shot at pet AI?

58 Comments

PickleBabah6 votes

Best. Analogies. Ever.

At least Tibbers can be controlled.

S0NA5 votes

Former Malz main.

And I played Hybrid Malz, where I abused the Voidlings' OP stats with Banner of Command (before S5 patch) and Black Cleaver/Manamune.

Once I figured out how to control them, they were AMAZING. You CAN get them to do what you want, but they are EXTREMELY indecisive. It took me hours of practicing in Custom games vs bots to work out how to make them do what I want.

However, they are still very limited:

-If you stop attacking something, they come back to you. -If you're casting spells and NOT auto attacking, they hover inbetween you and the minion cloud. -They are SLOW AS FUCKING HELL.

PLEASE update these things.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

I guess a less over-dramatic attack animation could help a bit too

Darkwind1 votes

The aa doesnt have to land for them to aggro. Another former malz main. If you start the animation and the voidling is near enough it will attack. Voidlings micro'd correctly will by themselves let you win mid lane against 85% of opponents, they're just stupidly strong. It takes some doing to figure out how to manipulate them, and you kinda have to let them stay safe until they frenzy a lot of the time. Getting out a couple of them before you ult is pretty much always worth it, they'll put a real hurting on your target. Also, I don't have a problem with any of the things the above guy was talking about very often:

-Voidlings will only come back to you after you stop attacking if they leave about ~700 range away or if your aa target dies. -Malefic visions draw voidling aggro. Theyre decisive about attacking that target 99% of the time even if you arent aaing. Other spells do not cause your voidlings to attack. -They aren't super super fast, but they arent bad either. Frenzy helps SO much with this.

7ha7guy7771 votes

Nether Grasp actually has the highest aggro priority for voidlings. if you ult someone, they will focus the target over enemies afflicted with malefic visions assuming it isn't the same enemy.

Darkwind1 votes

Yep. AA target<visions<nether grasp. i guess i kinda assumed ppl knew that, but it probably isnt that common knowledge

5G8Nri0B541 votes

I think it's safe to assume, nothing about Malzahar is common knowledge.

The meta just has no place for him to thrive. That and...I could have sworn there is a bug or something that makes him automatically disrupt his own R channeling if you pressed too many buttons at once.

Jesus is Savior1 votes

Everything you need to know about Malzahar is on his wiki page.

Solidair31 votes

-If you stop attacking something, they come back to you.

This is what I hate the most. It drives me insane. I have missed SO MANY KILLS because they wanted to come back to me instead of just attacking one more time.

Junkο2 votes

You can control Tibbers...

Yorick ghouls will almost always go after champions, and honestly most of the time that's what you want them too.

As for Voidlings, you can kinda control them, but they have terrible AI. Use E on a minion and then start fighting? Voidlings will attack minions. You E a champ to harass but want to farm? Voidlings will relentlessly chase the champ even when he is outside their range. Ult is the only way to make them focus a target, and even then it's on a long ass CD and you usually don't need them to kill somebody with a full combo.

5G8Nri0B544 votes

Tibbers controls aren't exactly the most intuitive, and more importantly, he should be useful even if he wasn't being directly controlled and not be like the child in the middle of two divorced parents.

Yorick's ghouls have a tendency to just STAND THERE and do nothing.

Junkο3 votes

Tibbers controls are simple, either R click or alt+right click to control him, just like Shaco clone or Yorick ult or Morde ghost

5G8Nri0B541 votes

You're missing the point. Why does the AI have to be so shit to begin with?

Junkο2 votes

because you are supposed to win by your own skill, not because the AI is programmed really well

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Again...MISSING THE POINT.

If Riot wanted what you're trying to say, they could have done it like Azir where the pets literally do nothing until Azir acts. Except with their pet AI, the pets range from just standing there and not attacking to being sometimes kinda working.

Shoddy mechanics is shoddy mechanics.

AetherKingdom2 votes

Yea and you have them.

League of Potato2 votes

Sir I think it is you who is missing the point

AetherKingdom2 votes

Don't bother replying, they're too stupid to understand.

Orangesilk1 votes

Yorick's ghouls only go on standby if they had a target but he left vision (probably a bush), this is solved by casting E and Q, getting the ghouls to chase the guy, and when he gets in the bush casting W in there, W spawns a slow-ghoul, which inmediately gives the other ghouls vision to continue the chasing, and slows the enemy down.

TheHypeGoku2 votes

Malzahar can suppress. Who cares about his minion, he can potentially fuck some1 in a team fight if they are caught out. Annie Stun + Bear is the purpose of it. Who cares about chasing. It's easy enough to move him around as well as tank turrets. Yorick's 'pets' go for the enemy champion and honestly he's already such an annoying champ. If they were to improve that AI, he could shove anyone out of lane. Quit crying. This would take up unnecessary time for Riot.

Junkο1 votes

If they were to improve that AI, he could shove anyone out of lane.

Wait he can't already?

TheHypeGoku1 votes

If they were to improve that AI, he could shove anyone out of lane.

Wait he can't already?

Not everyone. You can abuse the AI by jumping in the bush after he casts it or picking a champ that can either out sustain the damage or kill the ghouls before they get ya lol. If there was smarter AI, then it takes a little counter play out of it.

Junkο1 votes

Yeah but he technically still zones you when you try to cs by forcing you away from minions. Not to mention he can spam his ghouls a lot if he gets CDR.

Orangesilk1 votes

After you do the bush trick ONCE with a decent Yorick, he starts sicking the Q or E ghosts on you, and when you go bush, he casts W in there, giving his ghouls vision, and slowing you down for the other ghouls. There really isn't a lot of counterplay against him aside from outsustaining him or getting him ganked (or playing cho'gath, turning the ghouls INTO sustain)

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Oh as a former Yorick player, I've developed some of my own ways to deal with Yorick. No matter what most people say, his post-laning phase really is subpar compared to most other tops. So I pick someone who can simply stay in lane and have a stronger post-laning phase than Yorick.

Cho'gath was a popular choice. Maokai was unbeatable with how fast his Passive charges vs. Yorick. Trundle. For me personally...I found Kayle the most effective. Of course, back then AD Kayle was actually viable...

5G8Nri0B545 votes

"Let's not have properly working mechanics because champions can do other stuff!"

Junkο1 votes

Do you really want Annie to have 100-0 burst and a siege minion with Sunfire Cape after it? Or 40% CDR Malz to push turrets like it ain't no thing?

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Because people are really worried that Annie and Malzahar will go out of control

Do you really want Annie to have 100-0 burst and a siege minion with Sunfire Cape after it? Or 40% CDR Malz to push turrets like it ain't no thing?

So exactly as Riot intended?

Junkο1 votes

I got stomped by an Annie few games ago that our retarded top laner fed (yes Annie top lane), and she proceed to 1v5 us for the rest of the game. So yes i am a worried that a 100-0 burst mage that has a spammable burst Q spell gets out of control.

Meanwhile Malz shuts down all meta midlaners. Zed ulted you, Yasuo engaged on you? Well he died.

Orangesilk4 votes

OMG, there are so many champions that can destroy teams when fed by morons, we should nerf ALL of them, here, I'll show a video of a fed swain 1v5 penta, let's nerf Swain.

I once pulled off an AP Kog'Maw 1v5 while smurfing, we should get THAT nerfed too.

Hey look, this video of a fed Poppy destroying a whole team is so wrong, nerf Poppy too.

A burst champion got fed, your whole team failed to itemize against her, you lost the game, too bad, this is how League of Legends works.

Also, if Malzahar was able to shut down "all meta midlaners" he might see competitive play, he doesn't, so he probably actually isn't.

Junkο1 votes

I got feed too, doesn't that mean i should be able to 1v5 too? And no i wasn't saying Annie was OP cause she 1v5, i was saying she doesn't need buffs retard

5G8Nri0B543 votes

So...

"This champion doesn't need buffs, so let's not fix broken designs"?

WHELP! It looks like Riot should have reversed Syndra's clunky controls as she didn't need those buffs she received during her release!

Junkο1 votes

How is Annie clunky? It sounds like you just can't press R.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

LOL

Reading comprehension fail

Junkο1 votes

You literally misunderstood half of the replies people gave you and downvoted them all.

Lol

5G8Nri0B542 votes

An idiot fed an AP mid and AP mid proceeds to 1v5 your team who failed to adapt to a really fed AP mid.

The problem is your team dude.

Orangesilk1 votes

That would maybe give you reasons to pick them, they are obsolete design that sees 0 competitive play, and smart turret interactions sound like a great way to bring them back into relevance without number tuning.

Yorick is just annoying, I hope he gets another bug so he can get deleted again for a while.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

He is being reworked.............................................

Of course announcements of a Yorick rework was two years ago. So...it might be a while.

Junkο1 votes

0 competitive play, explains why Annie support was a huge thing in Season 4 i mean it totally didn't start because the pros picked her or something

Malzahar shuts down all those Zed's and Yasuo's you think are OP.

Orangesilk2 votes

Which is why, despite Yasuo and Zed having a 38% and 48% pick/ban rate at worlds Malzahar was picked a grand total of ZERO times at worlds.

Annie saw ZERO play at worlds too, she was played in early season 4 only for her insane burst, nothing to do with the possibilities her pet might offer, in fact it was all about her ability to hit lvl 6 and 100-0 people, which is why once she got her bases nerfed, she disappeared off the map.

Junkο1 votes

Oh hey more than 10 pros can play Yasuo and Zed because they are strong right now and decided to learn them but none of them decided to play Malz. That means he isn't viable. That means Zilean who had an insane pick/ban rate is broken right now!

Orangesilk2 votes

Um, he was pretty broken for a while, they nerfed him from having a global passive, to having a short ranged one.

Not in solo queue of course, but in coordinated teams where games can be won during pick/ban phase, and Zilean, versatile as he is, is the king of pick/ban phase.

Meanwhile, Malzahar, that you claim can shut down the most problematic midlaners in worlds, somehow flew under the radar of the very best players in the planet, who get paid big money by figuring creative answers to these kinds of problems.

Junkο1 votes

Pro players get money if they win, they aren't gonna pick a champ they never played before just because it counters an enemy champion. Let's say a pro is against a Zed main and he played Malz maybe like 2-3 games, is he gonna pick Malz? Of course not

Nyjacky picked Veigar multiple times and stomped most, does that mean he is broken? Maybe strong if your laner is dumb to push the lane and let you farm, but otherwise not.

Zilean isn't broken, his passive was nerfed BEFORE he got popular, and it got nerfed with passives like Janna's and TF's because Riot wanted to remove global passives from the game.

Orangesilk1 votes

I'm not sure Faker was like "hmm, Malz counters Yasuo and Zed, but I don't really think they are gonna be picked in worlds at all, let's not bother practicing him"

Junkο1 votes

This is really ironic because Faker mains Zed (and Ori who has an easy time against both) and is really skilled at Yasuo too.

Faker is on an entirely different skill level than most players anyway, and plays champions that have outplay potential, Malz just has WER every few minutes.

Poptart Evelynn2 votes

I didn't know tibbers had an AI, always thought everyone just controlled it.

EndGamer111 votes

Control Tibbers with ALT key, Voidlings with Space Aids.

Direwolfiez1 votes

I just control Tibbers by mashing R. It's easier, in my opinion.

7ha7guy7771 votes

i do that too. same with Viktor's ult once the initial target is dead

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Thanks for bringing up Viktor.

As I recall, Viktor's R was pretty good a tracking the enemy champion as long as the initial target is still alive.

As for pet reliability, while Zyra and Heimer's turrets have their occasional derp moments (moreso Zyra than Heimer), they are examples of relatively reliable pets in that they are constantly fighting rather than standing and staring. So Viktor, Zyra, and Heimer have proven that Riot has improved a bit on their pet AI. Kallista's ghost follows the enemy champion quite well too.

What does this mean? Yorick, Annie, and Malzahar's pet AI are primitive, and their age really begins to show once you put them next to new champions with more modern pet AI. In this case, I wonder if Riot just simply reprogram those older pets with what they did with newer pets.

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