Let's Talk About the Jungle

FatedTitan··12 votes·2,114 views

Over the past season, we've seen an overarching problem in Jungle diversity within the competitive scene of League of Legends. That problem? There is none. Diversity has been super small and has been a concern all season, even gaining Dev notoriety for how much of a problem this is. But even now, as the season is drawing to the close, we still only see about 3 or 4 Junglers in competitive. Why is this?

First, let's define the different styles of Junglers that are available in League of Legends.

  1. Heavy Aggression Early Game Junglers: These junglers are going to be those who buy an Elder Lizard of Spectral Wraith early and use their early game strengths to snowball lanes into a victory.

  2. Passive Late Game Junglers: These junglers are going to farm the jungle, gank when it's opportune, but mostly just try to get items to be a force in the mid-late game.

  3. Heavy CC Tank Junglers: These junglers are going to provide a lot of crowd control to team fights, while also providing various other forms of utility, while being tanky.

Now, what we see in LCS the majority of the time are Heavy Aggression Early Game Junglers. These are Champs like Lee Sin, Elise, Evelynn, and Kha'Zix. These have all been strong picks throughout the season, due to their ability to snowball lanes while still bring a strength into the late game, while that may not necessarily be their damage. Lately, we've also see a Heavy CC Tank Jungler come into play, Nunu. Nunu is picked because he brings a lot of crowd control through his Ult and Snowball, a damage increase to a teammate, objective securing ability with Consume+Smite, and decent damage late if he hits his Ult on people. He is also extremely popular because of the meta of protecting the late game hyper carry.

This means that, for the most part, there are two different groups (if we leave out Nunu's recent surge) that are rarely seen in competitive League of Legends: Passive Late Game Junglers and Heavy CC Tank Junglers. Why are these not strong picks?

  1. Passive Late Game Junglers: In all fairness to this group, they actually did get a small, two week surge in popularity with the addition of Feral Flare to the game, but immediately fell out of popularity with the nerf to the item. In all fairness, the item did need a nerf. It didn't take long to stack and it gave amazing stats for someone that just AFK farmed for thirty minutes. This category of Junglers includes Champs like Master Yi, Udyr, Xin Zhao, Jax, Tryndamere, and other auto-attack reliant Junglers.

  2. Heavy CC Tank Junglers: This is a group of Junglers that see extremely little action. One of the major reasons you see them so little is because people want to snowball their teammates into being late game monsters. Where do these Junglers fit in? They don't bring much early game gank potential because of their lack of damage. Late game, they weren't able to snowball their lanes so they don't have anyone particularly way ahead, while they also don't bring anything damage-wise to a team fight to make up for a non-snowballed team. Nunu escapes the death penalty that everyone else in this group has received because of his ability to protect a late game hyper carry in a team fight and his amazing objective securing ability with Consume+Smite. The Champions in the category are Nautilus, Zac, Maokai, etc.

Riot has made two attempts to help both of these groups of Junglers throughout the season and both have failed. They began by fixing Wriggle's Lantern and providing an upgrade that made it a great choice of item for Passive Late Game Junglers. Feral Flare brought a ton of diversity possibilities to the Jungle. The big issue with this item was the ability for a player to AFK farm for 20 minutes and come out a monster. Because of how prominent this strategy became, Riot nerfed the item, going as far as to call it "a mistake."

They decided to next take a shot at fixing Heavy CC Tank Junglers. To address their problem, they remade the Ancient Golem line, introducing Quill Coat. This was an item that would provide better Jungle clear and sustain for the Heavy CC Tank Junglers. This item TECHNICALLY didn't fail. It achieved the goal that Riot wanted to do, providing sustain and clear for these Junglers. The problem is that this wasn't the major problem for them seeing little competitive play. The problem is their lack of early game damage. They don't bring anything to the team early when the lanes want it in this meta. While your Heavy CC Tank Jungler is farming the Jungle freely, Kha'Zix has snowballed every single lane.

With all of this said, there's an overarching problem with the Jungle right now.

Riot has no clear direction on what they want the Jungle to be

Riot has stated that they want the Jungle to be diverse, but their actions speak the complete opposite of this. When they created Feral Flare, it opened the Jungle to a wide variety of different Champions. The key to this was that it did NOT make any of the Elder Lizard Champions unviable. The addition of Feral Flare opened up the Jungle to two of our three groups. The nerfing of it reduced our Jungle back down to one group. Feral Flare also opened up a whole new strategy to the Jungle. If you chose to go Feral Flare, you put your lanes in jeopardy. The Heavy Aggression Early Game Junglers were still snowballing their lanes while you AFK farmed. When you finally did come out of the Jungle, it could be too late for your strength to even matter. This required making decisions on what you wanted to do.

Riot really didn't want AFK farming for 20 minutes to be a strategy though, since you couldn't really do much to stop them, because counter-jungling doesn't exist anymore. So they added more stacks to transform and gain less strength for every giant monster. This didn't help at all, so they finally nerfed it to useless, going as far as calling it "a mistake." There were plenty of options of what could have been done to fix Feral Flare without making it a joke, even giving more stacks for helping get kills in lanes. This would have provided a way out of the Jungle for these Passive Late Game Junglers to participate. They would still get stronger, but they wouldn't be AFK for 20 minutes. But instead, they went with the opposite and took our Group 2 out of the Jungle again.

With Anicent Golem's changes, they hoped that these Heavy CC Tank Junglers would see more play. The problem with it was that it didn't address the problems that these Heavy CC Junglers have. Riot brings up Nautilus as an example of a Heavy CC Tank Jungler that they want to see played more. But his issue isn't Jungle clear. He does no damage ever in the game and his mana costs are ridiculous. Even when mana isn't an issue, he does no damage. So while you may be able to get a good gank on a lane, you require your laner to do all the damage to get the kill on the opponent instead of actually providing some damage yourself. Let's take Nautilus vs Lee Sin. Nautilus ganks and lands his full combo. Your laner has to do all the damage to get the kill. Lee Sin ganks and lands his full combo. Lee does half the damage as the laner does half and secures the kill. One of these gives the opponent no chance to flash away. The other makes your laner go through two cycles of their abilities.

So there have been two chances to make all three groups viable in the current meta. Feral Flare was nerfed to take Group 2 out of the Jungle and Ancient Golem's direction was misguided, when didn't let Group 3 come into the Jungle.

With Season 5, Riot has stated that they want to change the Jungle up and allow the Heavy CC Tank Junglers be stronger. I'm afraid that they're misguided again. It's not that they don't provide CC. It's that they don't provide the damage early that would make up for their lack of damage late. But my biggest issue is if this Jungle change is successful, what have they gained? Ok, so Nautilus is now meta and is the most popular Jungler in League. Zac is back and is throwing himself into every team fight. Where are we? We have one group, Heavy CC Tank Junglers, that are viable and two groups that are not.

It won't solve the problem of the Jungle. Just shift it to another group. And this time next year, Riot will state that they're going to be doing changes to make Heavy Aggression Early Game Junglers more viable during Preseason 6.

I make this post because the Jungle is completely messed up. There's no clear direction on what Riot wants the Jungle to be. There's one group of viable Junglers while the other two groups get thrown to the side, while we only hear that they want those two groups to see more play. Feral Flare is introduced, nerfed to unviability. Ancient Golem changed, changed the wrong way.

So here are a few questions I wonder about for the Jungle:

  1. What is wrong with there being more strategies in the Jungle other than early game aggression? Why is AFK farming not a viable option when wards and counter-jungling exist?

  2. How does Riot plan on making sure more than one group of Champions is viable in the Jungle?

  3. Who decides what is "unfun" or "toxic" to the Jungle?

  4. What is there to gain by creating a Heavy CC Tank Jungler meta?

  5. Does Riot believe it's possible for all three groups to be strong in the right situations?

Jungling is a lot of fun, but I've had to basically give it up because all of my favorite Junglers aren't that strong anymore. And this is not because of their abilities, but because of their items being weak. I don't understand how one Jungle item can be seen as "creating a lack of diversity and counterplay" while a different Jungle item has completely voided out every other Jungle group (Elder Lizard).

TL;DR: The Jungle has the inherit problem of no vision from Riot. No one knows what they want with it and they completely void out all but one group of Junglers while stating that they want all to be viable. Changing the Jungle will only shift the group, not the diversity.

If you read all of this, thanks.

10 Comments

ShadowKnight12242 votes

This is a very good post.

The problem that I feel is at the root of this issue is twofold:

  1. Vision.
  2. Mobility.

I'll cover 2) first because it's the easiest to sum up, though I believe 1) is the most important.

The two first groups that you named tend to have a significant amount of mobility that the third group lacks (and with good reason, imagine if Sejuani could jump forward 5 times instead of 1. She'd be able to reposition herself behind the enemy team in 4 jumps, ult them all and then charge in from behind with her fifth). Being so mobile lets the first two groups be a significant threat at all parts of the game, but while the second group is farming passively, the first group uses this mobility to become a serious threat. Nothing hard-counters mobility (not even CC, since it's possible to dodge CC with mobility). This means that even with adequate vision, ganks tend to be sudden and deadly. And since the second group is farming while the first group is ganking, this leads to higher map pressure.

Vision is the key here. With the S4 vision nerfs (and they were clearly nerfs), junglers exert additional pressure simply by existing. Since you can no longer rely on your support to provide map-wide vision, you must either sacrifice gold for vision (which reduces your kill pressure) or run the risk of being ganked (and lose kill/objective pressure).

At the end of the day, it's the pressure game. The first group of junglers cannot exert pressure with sufficient vision control, the second group does not exert pressure at all until mid or late game, and the third group exerts a very vague amount of pressure that relies heavily on jungler-laner coordination.

With the current mobility creep and the state of affairs in vision, the first group is king. The only counter to aggressive early-game junglers is exhaustive vision (the element of surprise is their main strength), which is currently impossible to have now that there is a 4-ward limit per person and pink wards can be destroyed by anyone.

If I were riot, I would completely get rid of warding limits, I'd let wards stack up higher (so I can buy a hefty stack of wards instead of an amplifying tome that I cannot really use because I cannot go too aggro on an enemy when I'm not sure where the enemy jungler is), and I would make the sightstone an item that upgrades from the trinket for 800 gold (or 475, if I don't want it to give extra health). This means that I, mid or top laner, am still sacrificing kill potential for vision, but I can sink 400 gold into 4 pink wards and nullify the early game aggressors. And by mid-game, the jungler, support, top laner and mid laner all have sightstones as trinkets and are able to stealth-ward the entire map, preventing early game aggressors from snowballing their laners of pulling off cheeky objective steals.

This, above everything else, would bring the third group back. The tanky cc jungler does not care about vision. It's not there to do a surprise amount of burst damage. It's there to engage, cc, and let the laner take the kill, evolving into the frontline of the team by late game.

Jenubis1 votes

Vision is the key here. With the S4 vision nerfs (and they were clearly nerfs), junglers exert additional pressure simply by existing. Since you can no longer rely on your support to provide map-wide vision, you must either sacrifice gold for vision (which reduces your kill pressure) or run the risk of being ganked (and lose kill/objective pressure).

If I were riot, I would completely get rid of warding limits, I'd let wards stack up higher (so I can buy a hefty stack of wards instead of an amplifying tome that I cannot really use because I cannot go too aggro on an enemy when I'm not sure where the enemy jungler is), and I would make the sightstone an item that upgrades from the trinket for 800 gold (or 475, if I don't want it to give extra health). This means that I, mid or top laner, am still sacrificing kill potential for vision, but I can sink 400 gold into 4 pink wards and nullify the early game aggressors. And by mid-game, the jungler, support, top laner and mid laner all have sightstones as trinkets and are able to stealth-ward the entire map, preventing early game aggressors from snowballing their laners of pulling off cheeky objective steals.

I can't help but feel that you're putting too much concern into vision. While vision is most definitely important, you would not want to see the whole map lit up like a christmas tree. Getting a sight stone on every champion for their trinket would do just that, there would never be any chance of clearing out the vision. It would just exist, and this would essentially just lead to an imbalance of power. Junglers would do nothing but literally Jungle, since they know they will be spotted the instant they step into neutral territory. Dragons would not be so stealthily grabbed early. No more game changing picks in the late-game. The idea is nice but when you really think about it, a sightstone on the trinket and no ward limit would really ruin the flow of the game.

Also I don't think you understand how nice it is for Supports now to have help warding. As far as losing kill pressure by purchasing wards in lane, well, you should have been doing that anyways. After laning phase is over, it doesn't hurt to spend the 100 gold leftover from a purchase for a pink or 75 for a green and place it or hold it for your team. Vision is very balanced at the moment.

As far as bringing these other Junglers back into the limelight, it mostly comes down to education. Feral Flare was gutted, but it's still a viable item to an extent. You just can't literally depend on the Feral Flare alone now. The number of stacks required being increased was needed, even today I can still have my thirty stacks by 12 minutes in. That's including one or two successful ganks as well, if they aren't successful then about 14 minutes in. The problem most people have is a problem they don't seem to think about: They forget to keep farming after they get feral flare. They assume that the kills/assists they get will be sufficient, and it's not, so their damage tends to fall off. Treat it like a Nasus Q, no amount is ever enough.

The tanky Junglers are just fine. People just aren't sure of how to use them. Like someone said, if you see a tanky jungler then don't complain about not having the damage needed to kill, pick champions that have the damage to kill. Cho'gath is an absolute monster right now in the jungle. He can literally have around 6k-7k health and a guardian angel on top of that. Not to mention his CC makes him dangerous to leave alive in team fights. The problem is he never dies, so you just avoid team fighting, which gives the team with Cho an advantage.

The reason we see the biggest amount of the other junglers in high level play is that most teams put focus on their lanes (the tank, the two carries) to literally get ahead and win the game through snowballing. Picks like Lee Sin, Elise, Pantheon, Kha'zix, they deal damage while having a form of CC and offering a way to dive under tower safely. This is why they are so strong in early game.

ShadowKnight12241 votes

I get the gist of what you're saying, but some considerations:

  • I main supp, and I can't get anybody else to ward, other than occasionally dropping a trinket ward in a bush. Unless my jungler is a Lee Sin, nobody else is building Sightstone or buying wards, and if my jungler is Lee Sin, his wards will be in random spots in the map where he needed to do Kool Wardhopz rather than in actually useful places.
  • Yes, having map-wide vision would be unfair for aggressive early game junglers (farming junglers don't care because they're farming, and tanky cc junglers don't care because they don't rely on stealth or surprise to win, they rely on mechanical skill and teamwork), but the current lack of vision is heavily unfair in favour of aggressive early game junglers. Aggressive early game junglers counterjungle, steal dragon, execute surprise ganks that pour out a frightening amount of damage, and 1v1 the enemy jungler at their own buffs. This is a valid playstyle, but the current vision limitations make this playstyle low-risk/high-reward instead of high-risk/high-reward. *I don't think education is actually a thing that matters. If it was, the most educated players would be routinely varying their junglers according to their teamcomps or the enemy's, which doesn't happen. The fact that early game aggressive junglers see so much competitive play is an indication that there is something in the game that favours them heavily, and my hypothesis is the vision changes.
Jenubis1 votes

I don't main support, but I do play it an awful lot. When I'm in soloQ it's a lot like what you're describing, but when you get into Ranked Teams it's a lot different. It might help SoloQ out a lot, but it wouldn't be very beneficial to the Ranked 5's or the Pro-Teams. (Which Riot has been on record saying they would rather reward people for Teams than Soloq.)

The vision limitation is all on the players, not the champions. It's a sad reality but it is the reality, if we want to counter the early game junglers then we just need to put more wards down. You can only help your side of the map in the early recesses of the game, and the best you can do is to suggest to the people on the other side to place wards (and then use them.)

The reason that these aggressive early game junglers are so popular is because they literally do everything. Some have damage that falls off but their utility still makes them strong in the later parts of the game. Lee Sin is the perfect example of this, his early game is tremendously strong with the mobility, the damage, the light-cc, ability to steal objectives. His late game damage somewhat falls off but his utility does not, being able to secure picks and jungler objectives pretty easily. Vision helps foresee this coming but it doesn't offer much in the way of preventing, save the ganks.

There is really a lot of different situations that showcase why the early game aggressive Junglers are good. I wouldn't place blame on the vision but more to the fact that the Champions themselves are just so strong in every category.

67chrome1 votes

But even now, as the season is drawing to the close, we still only see about 3 or 4 Junglers in competitive. Why is this?

Because that's how top-picks in a meta work.

Generally speaking champions fall into a bit of a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, and because of picks/bans and the lack of mirror matches in competitive play you can't just settle on the #1 best pick. 3 is also a pretty solid number and easy to remember, and you get to say stuff like "Holy Trinity of Supports" with 3.

But really - if you're bothering to play the best champion, why on earth would you settle for the 4th best?

The meta has pretty much always had ~15 top champions, 3 for each lane position.

Riot brings up Nautilus as an example of a Heavy CC Tank Jungler that they want to see played more. But his issue isn't Jungle clear. He does no damage ever in the game and his mana costs are ridiculous. Even when mana isn't an issue, he does no damage. So while you may be able to get a good gank on a lane, you require your laner to do all the damage to get the kill on the opponent instead of actually providing some damage yourself. Let's take Nautilus vs Lee Sin. Nautilus ganks and lands his full combo. Your laner has to do all the damage to get the kill. Lee Sin ganks and lands his full combo. Lee does half the damage as the laner does half and secures the kill. One of these gives the opponent no chance to flash away. The other makes your laner go through two cycles of their abilities.

As for the rest of your post - this seems to summarize most of it.

Which I completely disagree with.

For one, the damage on tanky CC junglers doesn't suck during ganks.

At level 6, Nautilus only needs to auto-attack someone 3 times (because Titan's Wrath) within his burst-rotation to exceed the damage Lee Sin's level 6 burst rotation does. Considering Nautilus can knock someone airborne from 825 range and his first auto-attack snares someone, they're probably going to get hit by a lot more than 3 auto-attacks.

Secondly, tanky CC junglers are hands-down the best gankers in the entire game.

A CC tank's job is to initiate fights and lock down priority targets. That strength tends to translate into amazing gank potential.


Third - the major thing that changed since then was specifically the gold available in the jungle. Tanky CC junglers do suffer with low clear times.

In seasons 1 and 2, the jungle was basically a secondary support position. It was extremely unlikely to get enough gold as a damage-based champion like an assassin to scale into late-game and actually assassinate. However, as Supports prove - utility maintains a pretty solid level of relevance regardless of how little income you have.

With 2 gold generation items like Philo Stone and Heart of Gold you could just camp lanes indefinitely with Tanky CC junglers as well - which was one of the play patterns Riot did put forth a solid effort to stomp out.


The jungle offering so much gold is predominantly why tanky CC junglers aren't in now - their clear times and sustained damage just pales in comparison to a lot of the assassins and fighters geared around scaling with that early AD.

Now that jungle items exist and they offer a lot of gold as a reward for clearing camps, you miss out on a lot of gold if you're predominantly focused on ganking alone - which is more the reason to pick a tanky/CC jungler.



TenSlashTen1 votes

give me back scaling EXP on jungle and old machete. Then I can play rammus every game If i want to. Until then... noty. I'll stick to j4/eve/elise/kha/lee

After they removed scaling exp farming junglers become absolutely god awful. They gained no advantage over the jungler who just killed people for exp. Infact they even could fall behind in exp if the lee etc got enough kills/assists(I don't even understand how thats possible But I've seen it enough to know it is)

Jenubis1 votes

They aren't "god awful." I'm not sure you falling behind is a direct result of the exp scaling being toned down, but because your enemy jungler is literally getting kills and assists left and right. (Which come on, why SHOULDN'T that give someone an advantage?) One could argue that a Jungler who can keep up with a team that is snowballing ahead just by farming is the real broken factor here, considering the fact that if his team was the one getting ahead he would be the one who isn't going to be stopped anytime soon.

GundayMonday1 votes

Really like the thought that went into this post (+1 from me). That said, I don't really agree with you that Late Game and Tank Junglers are in a bad place. For reference, I'm a diamond Sejuani main and play a lot of tank junglers. Let me explain.

Every champ has a unique kit with different strengths and weaknesses used to compliment a team composition. Laners need to play differently with/against different types of junglers as well. This could be playing less aggro and closer to your tower if you don't have vision on the enemy Kha or Lee. If you don't give early game junglers any opportunities to gank and get kills, they generally fall behind both in power and in usefulness compared to a tank jungler. So if you're playing midlane and see an enemy kha'zix with smite, maybe you pick ziggs/xerath instead of yasuo since you can play a little safer and avoid early ganks.

Similarly, if you see a tank jungler picked on your team, you need to pick a champ that has damage. I can play Sejuani as a burst mage or add more damage if my team needs it. But in doing this, I'm actually putting myself at a disadvantage compared to building pure tank. So my team needs to pick high damage champions to compensate or else we're not going to have an optimal setup.

A lot of that has to do with being on the same page with your teammates. This RARELY happens in solo queue. This is why you see a lot of players climb high on the ladder playing the standard early game junglers you mention. It's easier to win games with strangers by snowballing your lanes and making the enemy team ff at 20. These players are then the junglers playing with top talent on the solo queue ladder, which is where a lot of LCS teams recruit from. I'm willing to bet this is one of the main reasons why you see mostly early game junglers in LCS play.

But tank junglers aren't bad. Late game junglers aren't bad. They're well balanced and do their specific job. It's often difficult to build a team around them that optimally fits the current meta and popular picks in an LCS team's champion pool though, so they don't often see play. I'll watch popular high level streamers like the Oddone or Nightblue and hear them say blatantly incorrect things about how to build/use tank junglers. Players just aren't aware of a lot of the little tricks you can do to optimize your play, and because of that these champs don't get a lot of time in the spot light.

My two cents anyway. Feel free to disagree! Interested to hear what other players think. I recently broke into the top 1% of the ranked player base playing mostly Sejuani jungle, so I'm a little biased :-)

exiledFromBadmen1 votes

No, don't nerf my Elise pls, NO!

lightfantastic1 votes

It is just confusing what Riot are wanting with the jungle. They're attacking items when really they should look at the overloaded kits that enable certain plays.

Lee had damage, mobility AND utility. They've taken one utility factor of his, I've seen him not so popular anymore in soloq but he can still do the work.

Kha has mobility, utility and crazy damage too. Same with Elise.

These fellows can clear fast and reach lanes. They don't need to make much of a choice between farm and gank.

The more tanky junglers, well they do need to make that choice and they don't have as much of the damage and mobility that the popular junglers do.

Nerf the utility factor of the early jungle champs, they still have crazy amounts of damage and mobility. Elise has a stun, crazy long range gap close and an execute. Kha can jump to reach his target -and- slow them, all the while doing crazy burst damage. Does he really need the slow? His job as an assassin is mostly to get in and do damage, why does he need the slow when Riot talk about wanting to make him "opportunistic". He doesn't need to really wait for opportunities when he can do almost all the work himself.

That said, it isn't like the jungle fellows get dumpstered on. I've turned around games with Mao jungle just by counter ganking, same with amu. Of course I understand that is probably a difference between what the competitive landscape allows optimally over soloq.

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