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Veigar players, a question

FatedTitan·2/19/2015, 4:38:51 PM·22 votes·4,072 views

Meddler recently stated the following:

{quoted}

The Veigar changes for 5.4 are locked. Directionally we believe a delay on Veigar's E is essential to making Veigar healthy (so that we can be happy if he's strong and popular, rather than definitely having to nerf him if that happens). If that delay does prove to be too long we'll reduce it, given it's much harder to shut Veigar's laning down given the extra range and shorter CD on his Q however that delay's our best estimate on appropriate for the upcoming patch.

So Meddler believes that the delay on Veigar's E is essential to make him healthy. If he is ever strong without the E change, they would have to definitely nerf him. So I ask Veigar players, would you rather have the delay on your E or would you rather risk him becoming popular and being nerfed into the ground?

Personally, I'd rather keep him the same and deal with the risk. Veigar's been around for years and has never been a heavy meta pick because even with his stun, he has so little mobility and is super squishy. With the removal of DFG, we were told that mages that needed it or it was really core to their character would be getting compensation. We saw the broken mess that Ahri was after her changes and the quick nerfs to her. But I feel like the Veigar "compensation" is a complete overreaction to Ahri's broken state. It's like Riot decided to nerf him into oblivion so that he wouldn't be overpowered to start, which is strange considering their champ releases over the past two years. There's no compensation here. It's a complete gutting. I'd much rather him just stay the same and not get any compensation for DFG than have this happen to him. And if by some stretch of craziness Veigar does become a meta pick, then do some changes. But right now, it all seems like an overreaction by Riot and an attempt to make him the worst champion in the game.

56 Comments

Castanean2/19/2015, 5:13:47 PM29 votes

Everyone whom even remotely care about Veigar are saying this. I really like playing Veigar, but I completely agree with adding delay to his E. What I DON'T agree with is NOT BUFFING ANYTHING ELSE.

Sure, his W got less mana cost, sure, it also got less CD, but you CAN'T hit it anymore. Sure, his Q lets him farm faster, sure, it lets him double stack per cast, but he wont actually get to stack that much more than what he already could. (I actually like the Q change though.)

But here's the deal: They want Veigar to use the cage to trap champions instead of using it just to stun. What they don't realize is; VEIGAR IS SHORT RANGE. VERY short range. Not to mention, he's super-squishy. If he traps anyone in his cage and they aren't melee, they will burst him just as hard as he can burst them. Approaching a trapped opponent as Veigar is waaaay too risky. Especially if they have CC of any kind. To make matters worse, pun not intended, you will NEVER be able to reliably hit Dark Matter. And that's over a third of his damage, just, gone. This is made even a bit worse again by the fact that any champion with a dash can just dash through the wall to avoid his two skillshots. by the time their stun is over, Veigar will either have to flash+R to deal damage, worthless unless your target is AP, chase until E is back up or just... leave.

Ways I think he could be buffed to help with this are;

A; Reduce the fall time on W, making it more reliable.

B; Make outgoing damage from caged opponents get lowered.

C; Make his cage truly inescapable unless you use blinks, or just plain inescapable.

Or, the potentially broken OP one; D; Soft-Reset skills targeted inside Veigar's cage, excluding his ult. (Casting a spell through or inside his cage reduces CD by, say, 60-80% but it does not affect his ult.)

Personally, I think A and/or B would be plenty enough of a buff to keep him viable, but not OP.

MasterOfTheOrder2/19/2015, 5:29:05 PM18 votes

As a Veigar player, here are my thoughts (I've also tried the rework on the PBE)

He's too easy to kill now. Period. The "counter play" they gave him is much more than that. A more accurate term is "If it isn't late game, you can kill him for free".

He's still slow. He still has VERY little health. Landing his W on a champion is impossible, unless a teammate stuns them.

Riot wants counter play, and I DO get that. After testing it, I feel the best solution for both ends is to add a small slow (somewhere around the 15% mark) INSIDE the cage. It would allow him to land a W on less mobile champs, and more importantly it would once again allow E to be Veigars ability to use for escaping.

LANWhale2/19/2015, 5:28:43 PM17 votes

If that delay does prove to be too long we'll reduce it

To me, that's all that matters. The stun is a huge part of his kit and there is a reason why so many people are outraged at it. Personally the real reason why i'm out raged is the reasoning behind the change to his E, no not the counter play part.

Veigar traps his prey in a chamber of horrors

This literally made me believe they have no idea how to play Veiagr. Do you know what happens if Veigar ever misses his stun? Do you know what happens if Veigar traps the enemy inside the stun? Because if you don't I can tell you that Veigar won't be a thing for too long. If he misses that stun, his threat is gone, the enemy will turn and obliterate his face off. This change, of the E having a delay, would be fine if they applied the necessary buffs to his other kits.

Over all, the Veigar change is a nerf, he no longer has a reliable kit. His Q is a skill shot, his E has a delay that din't get touched, his E has a delay, and his ult got nerfed. There is no way around the Ult change, that was a nerf. Your E was reliant on you landing the stun, or on any CC'd target, because the delay can is long enough for anybody to dodge. It's sad to see this to happen to him really, especially when it has to do with counter play.

That word is a double edged sword for at times, counterplay.

They complain about it on VEigar for having an AoE stun that's instant. But refuse to to take that away from Annie. In fact as of right now why would you pick Veigar over Annie? She has the burst, a more reliable stun, the stun can be AoE and Aoe ranged. So what gives? Why haven't they changed her stun to have more coutnerplay. Oh that's right, she is played in LCS, she has a "Get out of Jail Card". This is what really peeves me on this. They say she has counter play, and I ask how? And they respond with the most stupidest answer, just stay out of her range. How is that counter play, you can argue the same with Veigar stun but since he isn't played in LCS hes has no counterplay.

DrCyanide2/19/2015, 7:22:47 PM10 votes

I think CupcakeTrap made a post that explained it best.

#Veigar's real strength is fear.

You are afraid you'll be instantly stunned. You are afraid of being instantly blown up. You are afraid that if the game goes on too long he'll become an unstoppable monster.

His ultimate is taking a 20% AP damage reduction. Regardless of if this is balanced or not (it probably is balanced), the idea of it being nerfed takes away some of the fear aspect of it.

His Q is going from targeted to skillshot. Again, regardless of how balanced it is, it's less scary than a point-and-click damage source.

His new E isn't scary at all. It's a cage that can't be set up around mobile champions, and can't contain anyone with flash up or with a blink. It can't instantly stun anyone, and to be stunned by it you have to misjudge how fast you move. There's a good chance you could choose to stay inside the cage and hurt Veigar for more than he'll hurt you.

His W wasn't scary unless you were in a situation where you were stunned, in which case you were praying that you got unstunned in time to dodge it. With the current "enemy must self inflict stuns" E, his W looses even that meager fear factor.

Personally, I think other nerfs would have still left his fear factor intact. There's a lot riding on Veigar's Q changes for him to come out neutral with these changes.

Ranishe2/19/2015, 8:35:17 PM8 votes

My main issue is with these changes I expect him to feel boring. What does he do? Burst? Play leblanc, burst harder. AOE cc? Play annie, have more reliable aoe cc and more damage. Throw q from range because that's his buff? Play lux, give the q cc and give yourself longer range to play with.

With these changes, there is no reason to play Veigar above other common mid picks. I would have left q as a point & click, and given something to compensate the nerf on his e (probably a range increase on q so it can be used to harass more reliably). Then you can qualify him as a healthy assassin: Short ranged, single target burst, and no escape in contrast to assassins like Zed and leblanc who can apply aoe damage and have built in escapes. But no, pick on the short squishy mage T_T

A more interesting interaction with targets in the cage would be very welcome though. Make it so that having someone inside the cage means something more than "they dodge meteor while not touching the walls because it's so enormous."

Recovery 132/19/2015, 8:15:28 PM4 votes

I think that the issue that most of the community is feeling is that they opened the discussion about Veigar to be about compensation the removal of DFG.

I understand that his Cage could be toxic to normal play style, from riots point of view. And I agree with riot on that. I also agree with the community, that the incoming changes in 5.4 will be rather hard to deal with. Especially when playing against either mobility champs or AD champs in mid.

I think the thing that stings is that there was supposed to be compensation. Nerfing the ult by as much as they did is unreasonable to say the least. Where if I asked any pro mid player and said to them, "Hey would you take 10 seconds off (Insert character here)'s ult for the removal of .2 AP scaling?" Short of people that prefer AD mids, I don't think anyone would say yes. (And in some cases I think they would clock me.)

Far worse than that, I feel like the stinging silence about player concerns have gone unanswered. Which is in stark contrast to the Mordekaiser changes where the developer of the changes not only had an open dialogue with the community, but eventually reverted most of his changes. (Which I'm hoping ends well for him)

In short, I feel like the changes coming to Veigar were probably a long time coming, its just that Riot couldn't find a way to do so with out people freaking out about all the other champs people usually complain need changed.

I don't expect riot to ever respond to one of these threads; no matter how well thought out and open they may be for discussion. I just wish if they did respond, they could see it to say "Hey we see you guys are concerned. As such were going to attach an invisible counter to the live version that will track the times that a Veigar 's Q, W, E & R actually hit or affect a champ. If we see that even with the changes we made that Veigar falls through the floor in terms of effectiveness we may reduce the fall time on his W, or the time it takes for the E to activate."

Though I would also like them to see the amount of damage that scales from an individual spell at each part of the game and the amount of damage towards a champ from that spell. (Looking at his Q in particular) I doubt that they would take the time to set up this level of monitoring as it involves a lot, A LOT of code.

So I guess, if you really don't like his changes, go play him to the best you can. Hopefully if they are as bad as we think they are; we will lose. (Twisted logic I know) But if he falls out, riot has a pretty good track record of trying to right things that they mess up lately.

PS His gate was toxic as heck on ARAM, and I cant remember the last time I lost with him on there. (Please don't hate me for this comment, but playing against him on there can be really hard when he takes up 2/3's of the lane with it. Again not saying he's op, but he becomes like lee sin on there where he can cause teams to win by himself. Not saying he is carrying but he definitely makes it hard to lose.)

Junkο2/19/2015, 7:30:30 PM4 votes

I rather have an instant stun so i can actually land my W thank you very much

Rrett2/19/2015, 9:12:42 PM4 votes

Doesn't matter what they do as long as E has a delay he's useless. Any assasain will be able to kill him and trapping people inside of a cage is useless.

If I miss my stun on a target as veigar, I just Q or simply walk away. I don't try to do anything else because it's useless. If I can damage them, they sure as hell will be able to damage me, and do a lot more damage. It's better to just not use the the stun because it's a mana drain.

Now that they took away the point-click on Q, not only can you dodge his dark matter with his impossible to land stun, you can also juke his Q.

I'm extremely good at dodging skill shots(juking). If I were to play against veigar he'd miss every single Q-W-E and he'd be useless in killing me.

Changes might not affect people too much at the lower tier play, but for high tier veigars these changes are worse than sunlight to vlad. I wouldn't be surprised if even dabox completely gave up on veigar never to play him again.

Sherogarth2/19/2015, 5:15:47 PM4 votes

Riot need to understand that for Veigar his stun is his true ult, not his 1.2 ap ratio, single target, low range, point-click, 130sec cd (at rank1) nuke. Also i think that first thing to change in his kit is his boring passive.

Space Wizzard2/20/2015, 7:01:26 AM3 votes

This "chamber of horrors" idea is dumb. if i don't stun the adc he 2 shots me with crit autos. i'm fine with his e being nerfed but every other change is stupid. q was fine his ult was fine what needed help was his w now that hitting it is going to be wayyyyy harder without the stun seeing as it has like a 1.5 second delay. also reds seem to be really quiet about these changes even though everyone who cares is screaming that they need tweaking.

Trídent2/20/2015, 2:17:11 AM3 votes

I'm just speechless.... There's been so many complaints about Veigar's changes.... and yet they are going to say its official? Seriously... wow. Talk about not listening to the community. There really isn't much room to be nerfed anymore... this "buff" basically just killed him. RIP Veigar item 3070

CupcakeTrap2/20/2015, 3:59:26 AM3 votes

So here's my reply to Meddler:

{quoted}

The Veigar changes for 5.4 are locked. Directionally we believe a delay on Veigar's E is essential to making Veigar healthy (so that we can be happy if he's strong and popular, rather than definitely having to nerf him if that happens). If that delay does prove to be too long we'll reduce it, given it's much harder to shut Veigar's laning down given the extra range and shorter CD on his Q however that delay's our best estimate on appropriate for the upcoming patch.

I wrote a thread on this subject earlier. I disagree strongly with the claim that Live Veigar has no counterplay. Rather, I think you guys are starting to define "counterplay" very narrowly, restricting it to dodging skillshots and other twitch-reflex maneuvers, at the expense of the slow, big-picture strategizing that is an important layer of LoL. At any rate, this isn't just a change in his playstyle: it's a massive nerf.

In short*, while I can't predict how the Q changes might play out, I cannot conceive of a way that the Q changes would compensate him for a delay on his stun that matches the delay on Cho's Rupture. This is even more so combined with the fact that the "compensation" for the loss of DFG was to nerf his damage even more.

The stun

I actually agree with changing the stun away from the "hit with the edge or die" version that's on Live right now. It doesn't feel like I'm trapping someone in a cage; it feels like I'm trying to hit them with an awkwardly curved skillshot, which happens to look super-easy to land ("just line it up, come on") but is actually quite difficult to land in high-pressure situations. If you miss with it, you die.

However, the new E is not a viable change: you didn't make his E into more of a cage, you made it so that every stun is a whiffed stun. (Landing Cho's Q is pretty hard already, and it's a large filled circle rather than a thin ring.) It needs something added to it, or else he needs major range increases and other buffs.

The damage nerfs

Likewise, I didn't really enjoy rushing DFG every match, or having to push the item smartcast button every time I threw my full rotation, or else get wrecked by the still-slightly-alive target. (That sounds kind of absurd, but it is possible to fail to throw DFG: the range can be an issue, and the way spell-queuing works in LoL, you can press the button and yet have nothing happen if your character's "queue" is already full.)

But there's no damage buff to compensate for the loss of DFG. Actually, his ult has been reduced in damage. There was some throwaway remark about all the extra farming he gets, but even if he farmed an extra 100 AP, it would pale in comparison to the power of 15% max health plus a +20% damage buff on all spells, PLUS a guaranteed meteor hit with a 1.0 AP ratio. His damage has been further nerfed by these changes, not compensatorily buffed.

Conclusion

As soon as I have time to actually play League…well, I'll actually probably play Factions. But at some point, I'll play the new Veigar. I actually played the no-DFG Live Veigar, and while he was definitely weaker, it wasn't that bad. I'm expecting this new Veigar to be massively worse. I'll stream some matches, and possibly speak about you in uncharitable terms as I do so.

*: Possible short joke.

Shadow Gilgamesh2/19/2015, 5:57:51 PM3 votes

I think it's crap that they think veigar specifically needs a delay for "counterplay" reasons while knockups aren't even effected by tenacity, effectively giving a substantial chunk of the champs have way worse CC problems than veigars stun

Ulric Greatsword2/19/2015, 8:51:23 PM3 votes

Ooh! how about vision denial a la Graves inside his cage? That would give him incentive to capture instead of edge stun enemies, and it would lower the risk of him being bursted down by them.

Solidair32/19/2015, 10:23:59 PM2 votes

I'm fine with it. They said they'd reduce the delay if they had to.

Besides, if I get skillshot Q I'll take ANYthing. So excited for that!

Street Magician2/19/2015, 10:38:47 PM2 votes

Whats the point of veigars w without his stun? its impossible to land. Riot never makes anything better anymore they just fuck it up.

Dezell2/20/2015, 6:21:54 PM1 votes

Zed's options when Veigar throws his E; A. Run out during the .75sec delay B. Stay inside the cage C. Eat the stun (????)

If A, nothing happens except there is now a huge window of opportunity against Veigar. If C... good job finding the dumbest Zed ever. If B, Zed has further options.

B1. Dodge Veigar's slow-ass W inside the massive safe zone. Maybe eat Q? Not sure how reliable of a skillshot Q is going to be. B2. Shadow out away from Veigar. B3. Jump on Veigar and steal his lunch money (also murder him) B4. Run into the stun (????)

If B1, nothing changes except Veigar just burned a ton of mana to accomplish very little, there is now a huge window of opportunity against Veigar. If B2, same as B1 minus a missed combo for Veigar. If B3, congratulations on the easy kill. If B4, see C above.

Leblanc would be the same. Kat, the same.

Veigar throws stun at Xerath!

A. Xerath runs out of the stun during .75sec delay B. Xerath stays inside the circle C. Xerath eats the stun (????)

If A, nothing changes except a window of opportunity against Veigar. If C, good job finding the dumbest Xerath ever. If B, Xerath has options.

B1. Xerath attempts to stun Veigar and nuke him first. B2. There is a single minion between Veigar and Xerath! Veigar attempts to attack through the minion while Xerath can't stun. Xerath has the option to juke. B3. Xerath flashes out. Big cooldown, so may be a net gain for Veigar assuming Xerath doesn't use Flash to press an attack. B4. There is more than one minion between Xerath and Veigar! Xerath and Veigar trade Xerath's QW for Veigar's W. I think that makes a net gain for Xerath. B5. Xerath runs into the wall (????)

Replace Xerath with Ziggs, Cass, etc.

Riot's supposed "chamber of horrors" is not a thing. The E nerf gives other champions more options against Veigar while taking away most all of Veigar's options. They are making it so that in order to win as Veigar, your opponent has to outplay themselves. As Veigar, you just pray. "Gee, I really hope this Kat builds only straight AP and runs into all my skillshots (now every ability except ult) so I don't get horribly murdered in lane!"

Typed on my phone, sorry for awkwardness or typos.

Mazianos2/19/2015, 6:16:14 PM1 votes

Personally, I think that the delay on his stun is fair, but I think it should be lowered so there is more of a "SHITSHITSHIT" feeling when you see the indicator. A delay of .5 or .25 seconds would be good. Champs with blinks or dashes could get out or stunned as they leave making it hard for Veigar to land his stuffs.

Ethri2/19/2015, 8:12:39 PM1 votes

I personally think I'll play him before making any decisions. I'm glad they are considering a shorter E warning though.

Better to come out underpowered and be buffed than overpowered and be nerfed.

ModKnightsKemplar2/19/2015, 8:36:06 PM1 votes

Thoughtful thread.

Rhyto2/19/2015, 9:14:10 PM1 votes

I just started playing Veigar and won almost all of my promo matches with him. He's an awesome champ why nerf him? We know his weaknesses and there's no need to do this at all. It's disappointing really.

Curling Veigar2/19/2015, 11:09:45 PM1 votes

I'm not sure. This is where I'm confused-- if they want him to be a burst mage, why did they lower his damage? I understand he gets double Q ap. But when they say "trapping in the cage for Veigar to torment" is where things don't make sense. First off, considering how squishy he is and how bursty meta champs are, doing this will get you killed. Lower the delay on his W. Make a slow aura in his E. These changes are missing ONE thing, and whatever the change is, will make him better. They also say he doesn't drop enough meteors--- where's the "He's not hitting enough meteors since they take a decade to land"?

Noob Slaýer2/20/2015, 1:16:43 AM1 votes

VEigar main here. I played 30+games with him and i usually go 15kills+ each game. its impossible to carry even when that fed. i know from experience because you one shot any squishy but then you have 4more to deal with. thus veigar doesnt put enough dps therefore losing the fight even after his one shot.

No matter how fed you get with veigar you cant carry 100% of the time no matter what

Scorpionex2/20/2015, 2:54:37 AM1 votes

So I've been thinking what if they halved the diameter on the e but made everything in it stunned when it came up? would that work with a delay not actually sure if that would be op or not?

Or how about something like a yasuo wind wall inside the cage where no projectiles can get through the cage?? idk just spitballing here

The Soulforged2/20/2015, 6:59:26 AM1 votes

I just wish they would make it possible for his w to actually hit someone without his stun.

Velasan2/20/2015, 8:31:14 AM1 votes

It seems like they should have just changed Q and stopped there. As is par their usual course they went crazy with the changes. Allowing Q to hit two targets and with more range may not even be much of a buff. Sometimes a targeted Q could catch someonne flashing away or dashing over a wall. New Q won't do that. Prepare to be jumped on by all the assassins veigar normally counters.

SanjiSanada2/20/2015, 8:49:54 AM1 votes

After playing it a bunch on the pbe, the problem is that no matter what, the new Veigar is going to get ratio nerfs anyway because of how easy it is to get stacks. If you end up in a farm lane (which you do most of the time because people fear Veigar) you'll get 100 stacks around 15-16 minutes and you'll be 1 shotting the melee minions at full health. And since its 2 at a time, imagine how it becomes 10x easier to get stacks at that point. After that, his team can't be sieged anymore because he clears waves so efficiently and he'll stack so rapidly out of control at that point. I remember in a 30 minute game i played, i had around 300-400 stacks at the end of the game. That's just 30 minutes, imagine how much he will spiral out of control past that time frame. That's what makes me sad the most about these changes, is that even though they completely toned his power down, he is still going to get nerfed just because that 1 little detail

Malix Farwin2/20/2015, 11:46:24 AM1 votes

i think i would rather have the later simply because he is getting nerfed to the ground anyways. The biggest complaint is no real compensation for the change. No one is saying that his E had counter-play but his whole kit is so dependent on it that it seems downright retarded to change it without making drastic changes to his kit.

The biggest problem with Riot atm is that they are only thinking about counterplay and does not care about how well a champs Kit synergies or feels (especially if they are an AP champion). Veigar is going to feel clunky and will not feel fun at all.

Kaipop2/20/2015, 12:40:05 PM1 votes

I don't even like Veigar but I played his rework on the PBE and his E's delay definitely needs to be lowered. Maybe .5 sec, or somewhere in between .25 and .5.