@Riot DISCUSSION ---- Before we go to the assassin rework, Can we talk about the Mage rework

Rivuo··3 votes·951 views

We need to be really careful. I feel really bad really really bad. People mained swain,malzahar,vladimir before the mage rework and guess what? They couldnt play their champion because of the 80% bann rate on each champ.

I would very much hate it if my champ got reworked and boom, so broken that i cant play them because they're pick or ban in every game from bronze to the LCS.

I would advise Riot to be careful. Get some Challenger players to test out the new champions for a bit before you guys throw them at the live servers.

Besides that, I feel like the mage rework was a total failure.

The point of annie was to fix her lack of counterplay. Now listen, I'm NOT saying she doesnt have a weakness. Im saying that she DOES indeed have little counterplay involved once she hits 6.

I do not care for annie. I do not play annie and i do not want to play annie. But i do feel like the mage rework completely failed its objective for her. If you main annie or not, it is a fact that she has close to no counterplay at 6.

My fix? Is to just put a timer on how long she can hold her stun. Vlads counterplay on his Empowered is that he cant hold it. He needs to either use it within some seconds or he loses it.

I would say 15-20 seconds is a good timer for annie to hold her stun.

Now regarding vel koz, The only thing i can say is IF THE COMMUNITY SAYS DO NOT CHANGE A CHAMPION THEN LISTEN. I wrote that in caps because Riot is having this problem where they are just ignoring the beneficial statements of their Community. Yes we do say a lot of dumb stuff, Yes we are wrong most of the time. But most vel koz players said specifically do not touch him.

There was absolutely no reason to change him. And boom, he got some stuff reverted.

For the other champions, im not going to say much. For instance malzahar swain and vlad... I feel bad for their mains, you guys need to think of possible outcomes because that ROA + spirit visage build should have been obvious that it wouldve broke swain and vlad. I dont recommend changing a whole class of champions during mid season either. This is extremely unhealthy for the game.

I respect what we're trying to do and i think its fuckin amazing that Riot wants to change champions and make them better, All im saying is that there is some stuff we failed on and cant continue to the next rework as if nothing happened.

Thanks for your time. Hoping for a rioter reply.

14 Comments

Calabok4 votes

No, from what I just read, it seems like you are just asking for an Annie Nerf. Fer shame

Oleandervine3 votes

I think Vlad, Swain, and Malzahar mains should be excited by the fact that their mains are forces to be reckoned with now, instead of half-dead champions that were mere annoyances before. As for the assassins, I can't imagine them going towards being OP. I think a majority of them will get heavy handed nerfs that slow down their kill speed and give the problem ones much needed bats to the face.

Rivuo1 votes

{quoted}

I think Vlad, Swain, and Malzahar mains should be excited by the fact that their mains are forces to be reckoned with now, instead of half-dead champions that were mere annoyances before. As for the assassins, I can't imagine them going towards being OP. I think a majority of them will get heavy handed nerfs that slow down their kill speed and give the problem ones much needed bats to the face.

Yeah i think the same thing too. But i just dislike how strong they became without any thought about it first.

Most of the assassins need heavy nerfs.

Akali-Rengar-Kha do too much damage for champs with 0 items

Have a Nice Game2 votes

^

Doesn't even play Vlad Malz or Swain.

Decides for their mains that they should be excited

Calls their champions half-dead pre-update

You call Malzahar who had some of the highest base damages and ratios half-dead?

You fucking call Malzahar who had 53%+ win rate before the rework half-dead?

As a pre-rework Malz main: Fuck off bro

Malzahar was a force to be "reckoned with" even before the rework AND he was more fun.

Oleandervine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Weeaboo Sword,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WNYaEyaQ,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-07-19T12:07:30.107+0000)

^

Doesn't even play Vlad Malz or Swain.

Decides for their mains that they should be excited

Calls their champions half-dead pre-update

Malzahar was a force to be "reckoned with" even before the rework AND he was more fun.

You call Malzahar who had some of the highest base damages and ratios half-dead?

You fucking call Malzahar who had 53%+ win rate before the rework half-dead?

As a pre-rework Malz main: Fuck off bro

Funny how you only defend Malzahar. All three of those champs were gimmicks at best, and on the whole, no one ever played them outside of a few dedicated mains. Just because Malzahar had a high win rate doesn't necessarily mean he was a highly picked champion or particularly strong - all it shows is that the people who played him in ranked did well with him, which, if the are mains, means very little. Karthus had a 58% win rate top lane after the mage update, but that wasn't indicative of anything other than die hard mains who could function well in the top lane due to an item change - that was only calculated through less than 1000 games for an entire patch, which means the results were tiny and skewed. So if you can show me where Malzahar had a massive playerbase getting 53% in ranked prior to his rework, I'm not sure your numbers will indicate much. You rarely ever saw Malzahar played pre-rework, and the only time you did was that gimmicky jungle build that cropped up.

Have a Nice Game1 votes

"Funny how you only defend Malzahar"

inb4 I state that I was a Malzahar main... Oh wait.

"Just because Malzahar had a high win rate doesn't necessarily mean he was a highly picked champion or particularly strong"

League of Legends is a game. A game is meant to be played. Champions are a part of League. Therefore champions are meant to be played.

Whether he is "high picked" or "particularly strong" doesn't mean shit.

People did play Malzahar. That is a fact.

Why does a champion have to be super popular in order to be considered a "good" champion?

Current Playrate for Vlad is between 2-3% for mid/top Current Swain is between 1-3%. Current Malzahar is between 4-5% which is literally the same as pre-rework Current Vel'Koz is between 3-4% Current Xerath is between 2-3% Current Brand is between 2-4%

By your standards of saying Old Malz's playrate was "bad," What do you call these current post-rework champion playrates? I have mained Malzahar for the last 2 years. I have always been watching his stats. He has always fluctuated between 4-5%

LB and Zed are apparently "popular" with their 7-11% pick rates, but they have lower than 50% win rates, yet that is apparently an indication that they are successful champions in your apparent opinion?

"only time you did was that gimmicky jungle build that cropped up"

His playrate for 6.8 was between 4-5% for mid alone. Jungle Malz was even more rare than mid Malz and for some reason, I feel like you mentioned jungle Malz only because of a certain streamer who seems to have moved on to Azir and Karthus only.

Personally I actually ran into Malz mains at a decent rate... Sadly I usually found out because they got mid and went Malz xD

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

Get some Challenger players to test out the new champions for a bit before you guys throw them at the live servers.

They do.

Marshbouy2 votes

It's the people who do surrender at 20 right? the palytesters is what i think they are called.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

It's the people who do surrender at 20 right? the palytesters is what i think they are called.

I'm pretty sure Surrender@20 is fan-run, they only report on the changes they find in the files between patches on the PBE, which anyone is capable of acquiring admission to. The PBE isn't really used for balance purposes unless something is especially egregious (yes, even more than live Sona) because matchmaking simply isn't very accurate on that server so it's hard to tell what "balanced" looks like.

The in-house playtesters would probably be under some degree of an NDA.

Marshbouy1 votes

ok

Hige2 votes

I can't agree with anything you said.

  • champions becoming good and therefore getting banned is a good sign, not a bad one, your champion is so strong that people worries you might wreck them, also, there's 6 bans, sooner or later you'll find your pick in there whether they're stupid strong or not (Zed)

  • Annie having no counterplay is simply not true, mercury threads and magic resist screws Annies hard. Making her hold a stun for a few seconds is simply unfair for the Annie player who invests mana or time into reaching 4 stacks, meaning that she's unable to burst someone out if she rushes her skills and they don't hit anything, Tibbers alone isn't enough to kill anyone given the enemies are of same level.

  • Vel'koz rework wasn't a failure, currently Vel'koz' damage has increased thanks to his ult rebalancing, he's one of the few mages who can overlook magic pen and can build straight up AP thanks to his ult doing true damage after 3 stacks of research.

  • Swain was rebalanced on the following patches around his ult cooldown, and while this equalized his power all around, he's still slated for bigger changes in the future

  • Malzahar has been monitored heavily and he received BIG changes throughout several patches until his numbers and mechanics found a decent spot. No matter how much testing you do, game design is something iterative, we could have received a perfectly balanced Malzahar but at a much later date, I don't think they released him THAT broken either way and they went ahead and hotfixed what they could.

  • Vlad has always been annoying to play against, but broken? I don't think so, his damage is heavily telegraphed (3 Qs for big hits, channel on E and delayed explosion on R) yet everyone complains about his ability to restore life but no one plays against his weaknesses properly.

Rivuo1 votes

{quoted}

I can't agree with anything you said.

  • champions becoming good and therefore getting banned is a good sign, not a bad one, your champion is so strong that people worries you might wreck them, also, there's 6 bans, sooner or later you'll find your pick in there whether they're stupid strong or not (Zed)

  • Annie having no counterplay is simply not true, mercury threads and magic resist screws Annies hard. Making her hold a stun for a few seconds is simply unfair for the Annie player who invests mana or time into reaching 4 stacks, meaning that she's unable to burst someone out if she rushes her skills and they don't hit anything, Tibbers alone isn't enough to kill anyone given the enemies are of same level.

  • Vel'koz rework wasn't a failure, currently Vel'koz' damage has increased thanks to his ult rebalancing, he's one of the few mages who can overlook magic pen and can build straight up AP thanks to his ult doing true damage after 3 stacks of research.

  • Swain was rebalanced on the following patches around his ult cooldown, and while this equalized his power all around, he's still slated for bigger changes in the future

  • Malzahar has been monitored heavily and he received BIG changes throughout several patches until his numbers and mechanics found a decent spot. No matter how much testing you do, game design is something iterative, we could have received a perfectly balanced Malzahar but at a much later date, I don't think they released him THAT broken either way and they went ahead and hotfixed what they could.

  • Vlad has always been annoying to play against, but broken? I don't think so, his damage is heavily telegraphed (3 Qs for big hits, channel on E and delayed explosion on R) yet everyone complains about his ability to restore life but no one plays against his weaknesses properly.

Every point i made was said by a rioter themself. The annie having no counterplay to vlad and swain becoming completely pick or ban. To the vel koz changes. I literally repeated what rioters balance team has said about each.

So thanks for your paragraphs that i wont read.

Slack King1 votes

{quoted}

We need to be really careful. I feel really bad really really bad. People mained swain,malzahar,vladimir before the mage rework and guess what? They couldnt play their champion because of the 80% bann rate on each champ.

I would very much hate it if my champ got reworked and boom, so broken that i cant play them because they're pick or ban in every game from bronze to the LCS.

I would advise Riot to be careful. Get some Challenger players to test out the new champions for a bit before you guys throw them at the live servers.

Besides that, I feel like the mage rework was a total failure.

The point of annie was to fix her lack of counterplay. Now listen, I'm NOT saying she doesnt have a weakness. Im saying that she DOES indeed have little counterplay involved once she hits 6.

I do not care for annie. I do not play annie and i do not want to play annie. But i do feel like the mage rework completely failed its objective for her. If you main annie or not, it is a fact that she has close to no counterplay at 6.

My fix? Is to just put a timer on how long she can hold her stun. Vlads counterplay on his Empowered is that he cant hold it. He needs to either use it within some seconds or he loses it.

I would say 15-20 seconds is a good timer for annie to hold her stun.

Now regarding vel koz, The only thing i can say is IF THE COMMUNITY SAYS DO NOT CHANGE A CHAMPION THEN LISTEN. I wrote that in caps because Riot is having this problem where they are just ignoring the beneficial statements of their Community. Yes we do say a lot of dumb stuff, Yes we are wrong most of the time. But most vel koz players said specifically do not touch him.

There was absolutely no reason to change him. And boom, he got some stuff reverted.

For the other champions, im not going to say much. For instance malzahar swain and vlad... I feel bad for their mains, you guys need to think of possible outcomes because that ROA + spirit visage build should have been obvious that it wouldve broke swain and vlad. I dont recommend changing a whole class of champions during mid season either. This is extremely unhealthy for the game.

I respect what we're trying to do and i think its fuckin amazing that Riot wants to change champions and make them better, All im saying is that there is some stuff we failed on and cant continue to the next rework as if nothing happened.

Thanks for your time. Hoping for a rioter reply.

Mordekaiser The damage is done, time to move on. Trust me, they wont return

Winterkill1 votes

They did the same thing to Karma Mordekaiser Shen and they do not intend to fix anything anytime soon. EVERYONE told them not to touch Brand or Vel'Koz. The Annie rework was supposed to make it easier to play against her, but it didn't. They added bar that tell you when she has her stun up. Instead what they should have done is had her stun fall off if she holds it for too long. It is easy to see when Annie's stun up. The problem is her stun that is able to be held for long periods of time.

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