@FeralPony, A plea regarding Kog'Maw

Rebonack··2 votes·451 views

I'll try to keep this relatively to the point. When Koggy last got his Q remade, there were a few players that warned against it. Kog has always been hanging in a really precarious balance point and historically small changes or buffs have often catapulted him into ban-land, resulting in him getting nerfed down, often to a weaker point than he was before the changes. This happened when his W had its duration kicked up to 10 seconds (attack range nerf, W duration nerf, E slow nerf). And when the addition of Athene's buffed his AP build (Ult base damage nerf, Ult stacking cost nerf).

Most recently his Q was changed to a skillshot, its base damage was increased, its AP ratio was reduced (0.7 to 0.5), and it was altered from 25 flat hybrid shred to 28% hybrid shred. As a result of this change, in addition to the item changes, Koggy lost 5 base movespeed and even more of his Ult base damage.

More importantly, the change has really hurt part of the nuance of Koggy's character. He's a long-range champion (WER), however he packs a really nasty bite if you get in close (Innate and Q). Changing the Q into another long range ability watered down that identity, I think. And the change to the much more powerful %Shred also unbalanced him.

So to that end, I would like to request that the Live Balance Team consider reverting Kog back to where he was pre-Q buff. His Q would return to a 650 range targeted skill with a better AP ratio, lower base damage, and the weaker 25 hybrid shred along with recovery of his missing 5 movespeed and his lost Ult base damage.

This coming from a Koggy main as of his first free week. I love the little bugger, but I feel like the Q change and the following nerfs are shoving him in the wrong direction.

9 Comments

Rebonack1 votes

For anyone who would like to get some kind of Red response on Koggy's state, please help me keep things rolling.

To the Kog'Maw fans out there (There are dozens of us! DOZENS!) what build path for Koggy is your favorite? Traditional ADC? APC? Hybrid? Something weirder?

DarkenedSoul4201 votes

I like rushing IE and PD with kog, the crits are beautifull. The last 3 items (besides zerk greaves) really depend on the enemies team..lots of tanks? Bork/lw/GA Lots of squishies without much armour? BT/bork/GA

Narasimha1 votes

He's a long-range champion (WER), however he packs a really nasty bite if you get in close (Innate and Q). Changing the Q into another long range ability watered down that identity, I think.

I think thats part of the disconnect. The idea is that he is a long range artillery ADC. All his strengths should be at keeping the enemy as far away as possible. Having a move that places them closer to you then kind of defeats the whole purpose.

Rebonack1 votes

It's funny, of all the various builds for Koggy the standard IE/Dancer is probably my least favorite. Probably because it makes him feel very same-y when contrasted with the rest of the game's Rangers.

Kog just has a totally absurd range of builds that can work on him.

  1. Crit ADC (IE/Dancer)
  2. Anti-Tank ADC (BotRK/Whisper)
  3. Trinity nonsense (TONS OF DAMAGE)
  4. Muramana Hybrid (Mura+Sorc Boots and then Dancer/Whisper/SHiv/ect)
  5. TanKoggy (Cutlass into Wit's, finish BotRK, then Tank gear)
  6. OnHit AP (Nashor's, Lichbane, ect)
  7. Ult Spam AP (Athenes, AA staff, ect)

If Koggy's W buff counted as a spell like Kayle's E does that would open up Spellvamp-based builds to him, too.

I think thats part of the disconnect. The idea is that he is a long range artillery ADC. All his strengths should be at keeping the enemy as far away as possible. Having a move that places them closer to you then kind of defeats the whole purpose.

I understand where you're coming from, but I would disagree. Koggy's old Q was a 'if you get up in my face you're going to have a bad time' ability. It's the same reason why he has the Innate that he does. If Riot really wanted to make him purely an artillery champion then his Innate really should be something that emphasizes that play style.

The problem, however, is that other ADCs do the long range poke thing much more effectively than Kog does. Jinx, Ez, and Corki all have more reliable long range poke. Jinx and Ez' long range poke also scales in damage much better than Koggy's does. The only way Kog can get comparable poke power is if he really invests in it (see the above Mura/Hybrid build).

5G8Nri0B541 votes

His current Q is far better.

The old Q made no sense for a Kog'maw played right. It's in a range where Kog'maw should never allow his opponent to be. So in the end, this is an ability that is 100% useless if the Kog'maw player does well.

Not to mention, the current one is way more useful, not only does it have a more appropriate range, it actually scales into late game as it shreds a % amount.

Also, you want to turn a SKILLSHOT into a boring point and click ability?

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

His current Q is far better.

The old Q made no sense for a Kog'maw played right. It's in a range where Kog'maw should never allow his opponent to be. So in the end, this is an ability that is 100% useless if the Kog'maw player does well.

Not to mention, the current one is way more useful, not only does it have a more appropriate range, it actually scales into late game as it shreds a % amount.

Also, you want to turn a SKILLSHOT into a boring point and click ability?

His current Q is far worse when taken holistically. It resulted in AP ratio nerfs, movespeed nerfs, and base damage nerfs as well as nerfs on his dueling ability, especially against soft, highly mobile targets. Kog already had his W to deal with tanky folks. The change on his Q to %Shred was overkill.

Missiles trade range for reliability, and one of the biggest issues Koggy has right now is reliability, especially when it comes to dealing with highly mobile opponents. You speak of lofty ideal cases that rarely happened in real games. If Koggy ever gets into a shoot-out with the enemy ADC (and it happens, that extra 150 on most ADCs isn't going to stop them from just gap-closer-ing in on him) Koggy's old Q was a guaranteed damage buff to help him in duals against soft targets such as Assassins and other Rangers.

Also?

Generic missile abilities are just as boring as targeted skills.

The proliferation of 'skill'shots are also one of the major contributing factors to mobile champions being as oppressive as they are. Targeted skills are needed to keep them in check.

And 'played right'? Really? Are you sure there? Because last I checked, Koggy was created with a medium ranged targeted skill and a melee range Innate. The purpose of his I and Q were to retaliate if someone got close to him since he lacks any way of escaping aside from slowly waddling away. And in this environment of Fizz and Zed and Vi and Jman everywhere, you can rest assured that someone is going to get up in his face and force him to 'play wrong'.

Rebonack1 votes

Just to reiterate in a slightly different way, the Q change was an improvement to Kog's ideal-use scenario and a nerf to his back-up. That backup being, if you get close to him he used to be able to duel pretty darn well due to the guaranteed Q damage and potent flat shred. This means Koggy's already weak lane phase is even weaker and his ability to potentially repel divers with sheer damage has been hit. That's in addition to the retaliation nerfs to his movespeed, Q ratio, and Ult base damage.

The problem is Koggy's backup scenario happens a lot. His slow is useless against high range gap-closing champions and his Q can whiff pretty easily against the highly mobile champions that prey on him. If Koggy is ever ever going to be viable outside of extremely well organized team play his identity as 'long range poke with a painful bite if you get close' identity needs to be made stronger, not weaker. The only peel Kog has is raw damage and that damage has gone down quite significantly against the folks whole would try to pounce on him in team fights.

Rebonack1 votes

I'm hoping for a reply, Feral, even if it's just a reply saying, 'No, we've decided to remove the 'threat at close range' nuance of Koggy's character and focus him fully on long range'. Just knowing Riot's mind on who Koggy is and what he's supposed to be would really set me (and all the other Kog mains out there) at ease.

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