Suggestion for Malzahar Rework

DW Diana··5 votes·5,787 views

Hi all,

So I'm a malz main since I started in Season 7, so didn't play him pre-rework but have seen him, and have a good idea of what everyone hates about him, both as malz mains and people playing against him. I also love the lore surrounding him (found the irony of it's release just after his 5th nerfing though xD).

In this post I will outline what for me are the key features of malzahar's abilities (not his current ones but his ACTUAL abilities by lore) and it's relevance to his current kit, and offer a potential rework including key statistics with comparable abilities that already exist in league where needed.

Comments and suggestions are welcome, but please keep them relevant to the lore and note I'm trying to create a reworked version of him that isn't reliant on his ult (the #1 complaint of EVERYONE when faced with malz).

Ok so malzahar is meant to be first and foremost a seer. It's what lead him to his wealth, and eventually to the portal in Icathia. Currently there is nothing around vision in his kit other than a dot called "Malefic Visions" which "infects" his opponents mind making them see visions of doom, which while I've tried to keep in his kit, have attempted to make feel a little more real and scary.

Secondly he's meant to open portals to the void. I get thats what the "call to the void" and "Nether grasp" are meant to portray, but really Call to the Void doesn't really bare any reference beyond the name, and Nether Grasp is just a stun with a pool animation. (also note that nowhere in the lore does malzahar have to stand there keeping the portal open, only to make it open in the first place.)

Thirdly he's meant to unleash void creatures that will devastate the world! Notice the "devastate" bit? Not get a pointy stick, poke once and they go away? His w USED to be scary, but the current version would make Kassadin just laugh and start handing out sticks, not go on a crusade. Kai'sa as a child would probably train them like the puppies they currently are.

Lastly Malzahar is the leader of a CULT. Where the hell are his followers?

For those that are interested in his lore: https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/champion/malzahar/

Ok so onto his abilities:

**Passive - Seers Vision Malzahar's area of vision is slightly increased (based on level) and can see over walls/into bushes. Control wards block this but are also revealed by this, as are far sight and zombie wards. Normal trinket wards are unaffected. **

My idea behind this is that Malzahar relies massively on his current passive to survive, but he's a SEER. He should stay alive by being able to SEE things others can't, not by being immune to damage for one hit! I haven't included the area of this vision as I don't really know what would be balanced.

**Q - Malefic Visions Mana Cost: 55 CD 8 seconds Range 700

Malzahar - Malzahar infects his target's mind with cruel visions of their demise, dealing damage over time. Taking damage from Malzahar's other spells on the target will refresh malefic visions. ** **If the target dies while afflicted by the visions, they pass on to a nearby enemy units (Range 500). ** **Deal 70/90/110/130/150 magic damage (+65% AP) to them over 4 seconds. **

Target: Point and click Ok so we're making people really scared! Fear is infectious! So yes it spreads to more than one person. Thus the heavy nerf in it's damage. Also while you're afraid, the thing that you're afraid of munching at your face is likely to keep you that way, thus the refresh off voidspawns and Null Zone. Equally deciding to just give up and die would alleviate that fear but also make you more vulnerable thus call to the void removing this (Notice how Call to the void doesn't do actual damage?). The fear is only short, but will be more impactful if the target dies near it's allies.

**W - Summon Voidspawn Mana Cost: 50/60/70/80/90 CD 15/14/13/12/11 seconds Range 600 Passive - Voidspawns do +100% increased damage to minions, deal +50% damage and gain movement speed towards enemies champions with impaired movement or actions, and -50% damage to epic monsters. Malzahar summons up to 2 voidspawns (cd above per stack, up to 2 stacks) which attack the nearest enemy or priority target (priority set by most recent aa or enemy affected by Malzahar's other spells (closest enemy if more than one unless stated otherwise)) Voidspawns last for 8 seconds, their attacks deal 20/25/30/35/40 physical damage (+45% AD) (+30% AP), have 50/65/90/115/130 hp (+10% AP), 20-50 armour and MR (levels 1-18). ** **When they kill a minion they restore 5 (+2% AP) mana to Malzahar and when they kill a champion they also last 4 seconds longer. **

Target: Point and click Ok so the idea behind this is obvious. The voidspawns will be feared again. They are afterall the main reason people fear/worship malzahar in lore and should be the core ability of his kit (Not a point and click stun). However adding things like on hit, slow etc would just make them too good therefore I would have them continue to apply healing through things like Ravenous Hunter, Gunblade and, as it's physical damage, Death's Dance, but wouldn't have them apply on hit effects like liandry's and rylais. This way they scale as malzahar gets stronger, give a small amount of utility through mana regen, but more than anything are just monsters he has let loose into the world. Also note they do physical damage. This is important to their balance!

**E - Call to the Void Mana Cost: 75 CD 20/19/18/17/16 seconds Range 800 Malzahar calls the target into his cult, slowing them by 90% charming them for 1/1.15/1.25/1.35/1.5 seconds, causing them to approach him slowly. Magic damage taken while charmed is increased by 15%. ** **If the target was affected by Malefic Visions, it stops taking damage from malefic visions and instead takes 10%/12%/13%/14%/15% additional damage for the duration of Call to the Void **

Target: Skillshot Ok so Malz now has some CC that isn't an Ult! And it fits with the cultist theme! And as the cultist's are accepting death they take more damage because their defenses are down! And if they've been scared witless before hand they're even more susceptible. Also remember the void spawns do physical damage? This means they only take the additional damage from them and other physical damage dealers if this consumes the malefic visions.

**R - Null Zone Mana Cost: 100/150/200/250 CD 180/160/140 seconds Range 700 After channelling for 1 second Malzahar opens a portal that damages and slows enemies caught in it for 5 seconds, and two seconds after leaving it/the spell ending. Enemies affected by the Null Zone spawn a Voidspawn which will attack them for 8 seconds. ** **Enemies within the Null Zone take take 150/200/250 (+75% AP) damage followed by 2%(+1% AP) total hp damage per second and are slowed by 40%/50%/60%. ** **Voidspawns attack speed is increase by 30% while within Null Zone. **

Target: Point and click AOE Ok so back to a golden oldie, with a twist. Malzahar is opening a portal that's slowing and doing damage to people. The voidspawns come from the void so of course some are going to come out. It's also their natural habitat so they're going to be stronger there. Also who ever said these portals were meant to be small? In lore there was a massive pavilion surrounding one, and it kept getting bigger! Therefore I'd have this one start the radius of the old Null Zone (about the size of vlad ult) and grow to a gp zyra ult size over the course of the 5 seconds. For this it has a high mana cost, a high cd, and a channeling time to balance it out.

Anyway those are my thoughts on what Malzahar should be. Yes it's still a bit point and click, but it actually matters when and the order in which you use his abilities. It also opens up a variety of builds while keeping the classics an option. It would make him strong, but with his own flavour, fun to play, non-ult reliant, but impactful when using it at the right time. I hope you all like, and it'll give the riot team some ideas to work of to fix my favorite champion who is currently at best a midlane support with one ability that 1100 gold mitigates :P

Cheers for reading! :)

Edit: 0.5 fear effect removed from Malefic Visions

38 Comments

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

The reason why Malz mains play him is due to his "reliability".His cc, silence, permaslow, barrier all of these are "reliability". And the duality that he was COMPLETELY unstable due to being totally weak being ganked (pre-rework) as a tradeoff was his key points. Malz main wanted to manage this weakness through their own intuition and game knowledge just like the seer you are.

Also Malz mains want the champion as a feared opponent that his allies feel trusty about. "Completely nasty to enemies, while kind to his team." is his core philosophy. We just want these points filled in with the crabs and nasty infections.

DW Diana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-21T17:34:25.343+0000)

The reason why Malz mains play him is due to his "reliability".His cc, silence, permaslow, barrier all of these are "reliability". And the duality that he was COMPLETELY unstable due to being totally weak being ganked (pre-rework) as a tradeoff was his key points. Malz main wanted to manage this weakness through their own intuition and game knowledge just like the seer you are.

Also Malz mains want the champion as a feared opponent that his allies feel trusty about. "Completely nasty to enemies, while kind to his team." is his core philosophy. We just want these points filled in with the crabs and nasty infections.

True, but at the moment his CC is a big problem, his silence is an annoyance for 0.75 seconds, his permaslow i haven't removed.

With this rework i feel he would be less susceptible to ganks thanks to his passive and gained mobility through his ult not being a double-edged sword of cc. He'd have some cc, and be able to do damage/bring utility in both a solo lane and in teamfights.

He'd still be reliable, nasty to enemies, and kind to his team with this kit.

I'm struggling to see what part of the rework suggestion doesn't fit your view of malz....

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T17:42:39.868+0000)

True, but at the moment his CC is a big problem, his silence is an annoyance for 0.75 seconds, his permaslow i haven't removed.

With this rework i feel he would be less susceptible to ganks thanks to his passive and gained mobility through his ult not being a double-edged sword of cc. He'd have some cc, and be able to do damage/bring utility in both a solo lane and in teamfights.

He'd still be reliable, nasty to enemies, and kind to his team with this kit.

I'm struggling to see what part of the rework suggestion doesn't fit your view of malz....

I used to be the 7th place mastery on Malzahar until I started to work. And when I first picked this champion in season 4, the Japanese commitee (which did not have their server) claimed, "Malzahar is in theory the strongest yer versatile midlaner of them all.". At that time we were able to build cleaver, crystal sceptre, rabadons, even gunblade. One of the charms playing him was his pet "crabs" they used to be slightly controllable by priority commands Ult>E>auto. And this used to be fun in playing him and what Malz main miss out. You can command a small drone by yourself. Another one of his appeals was his anti-assassin capabilities. At that time katarina and akali and yasuo were main picks in midlane. Malz was used as a extreme niche counter but was always loved by mains and was considered a trusty "friend" almost.

i want these elements to come back to the game and still remain. if they are removed it ain't our dancing Arab god anymore.

DW Diana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T18:34:13.250+0000)

I used to be the 7th place mastery on Malzahar until I started to work. And when I first picked this champion in season 4, the Japanese commitee (which did not have their server) claimed, "Malzahar is in theory the strongest yer versatile midlaner of them all.". At that time we were able to build cleaver, crystal sceptre, rabadons, even gunblade. One of the charms playing him was his pet "crabs" they used to be slightly controllable by priority commands Ult>E>auto. And this used to be fun in playing him and what Malz main miss out. You can command a small drone by yourself. Another one of his appeals was his anti-assassin capabilities. At that time katarina and akali and yasuo were main picks in midlane. Malz was used as a extreme niche counter but was always loved by mains and was considered a trusty "friend" almost.

i want these elements to come back to the game and still remain. if they are removed it ain't our dancing Arab god anymore.

Ok so in terms of the suggested rework how would you implement the control?

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

I'll change the passive back to his old one with 4 charge cast summon. Then change his W into something like this.

W: Summons a voidgate on targeted location. The gate will react to malzahar's 4th charge spell and will spit out a voidling towards the target. Summoned voidlings are able to evolve while voidgate exists.

R: two part cast. First cast-summons null zone. Second cast-Able to cast nether grasp targeting a person that is within null zone.

instant flash ulting can be now reacted by flash due to a large warning made by the opening null zone. But it still makes Malzahar a strong anti-assassin/engager if he is vigilant. I think this will be fair enough for our enemies, and still allows us to do hillarious stuff like protobelt/sceptre initiate if he buys it.

DW Diana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-21T18:55:42.309+0000)

I'll change the passive back to his old one with 4 charge cast summon. Then change his W into something like this.

W: Summons a voidgate on targeted location. The gate will react to malzahar's 4th charge spell and will spit out a voidling towards the target. Summoned voidlings are able to evolve while voidgate exists.

R: two part cast. First cast-summons null zone. Second cast-Able to cast nether grasp targeting a person that is within null zone.

instant flash ulting can be now reacted by flash due to a large warning made by the opening null zone. But it still makes Malzahar a strong anti-assassin/engager if he is vigilant. I think this will be fair enough for our enemies, and still allows us to do hillarious stuff like protobelt/sceptre initiate if he buys it.

His old passive seemed to me to require some form of spam spell to make it work. Was that not the case? Or did it activate every time your Malefic visions spread? I tried to a-void (couldn't resist) the whole evolve thing, and went with scaling based on stats/situation.

My idea against assassins/engage was that he can q or e to gain some breathing room if they came in on him without entirely locking them down. Nethergrasp I've tried to remove entirely as it's the fact its a point and click stun that most people seem to hate (riot included), and his only real kill pressure. This rework is designed to give it utility and damage without being the main focus of his design.

Beacon Academy2 votes

The passive was one of the reasons why he was allowed to have higher base and ratios for his spells.

Either you built AD to give bonus AD to Voidlings or you built AP for spell damage.

It was one or the other (Gunblade excluded).


There are four reasons why Malzahar had high base damage and high ratios pre-rework.

  1. He was an immobile champion... Automatic compensation for not being able to jump/dash around to get away from shit.

  2. High mana costs

  3. Longer cooldowns

  4. His passive benefited from AD only while his spells were only benefited by AP

Riot didn't understand this as they:

  1. Gave him a shield which made him safe and contradicts the amount of damage Voidlings/E resets did during the rework release.

  2. Lowered both mana costs and cooldowns... Turning him into a spam bot... Making his spells feel worse to use because they looked the same but did insanely less damage relatively than before the rework.

  3. gave him a fifth source of magic damage when they made tether deal damage while Voidlings were also doing mixed damage. This issue still is there except that Malzahar no longer has physical damage.


I honestly just want a revert. Higher base damage and ratios can be bitched about for a little bit, but the longer cooldowns and high mana costs will make those complaints die out as those high damage spells will be "less in their face" due to not being spammed so much.

Plus I miss the old Voidlings I had to actually care about. Y'know the sturdy ones you got to watch grow up during a 14 second period and die of old age at 21 seconds. The ones that you could direct with your auto attacks... and could pull back from being killed with its leash to deny the enemy laner gold after being chased out of lane by a well bounced E and a frenzied Voidling.

I miss the little guy.

Patience was a virtue on old Malzahar

Now we have Spamzahar with throw-away Voidlings/Spells...

DW Diana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T20:48:23.306+0000)

The passive was one of the reasons why he was allowed to have higher base and ratios for his spells.

Either you built AD to give bonus AD to Voidlings or you built AP for spell damage.

It was one or the other (Gunblade excluded).


There are four reasons why Malzahar had high base damage and high ratios pre-rework.

  1. He was an immobile champion... Automatic compensation for not being able to jump/dash around to get away from shit.

  2. High mana costs

  3. Longer cooldowns

  4. His passive benefited from AD only while his spells were only benefited by AP

Riot didn't understand this as they:

  1. Gave him a shield which made him safe and contradicts the amount of damage Voidlings/E resets did during the rework release.

  2. Lowered both mana costs and cooldowns... Turning him into a spam bot... Making his spells feel worse to use because they looked the same but did insanely less damage relatively than before the rework.

  3. gave him a fifth source of magic damage when they made tether deal damage while Voidlings were also doing mixed damage. This issue still is there except that Malzahar no longer has physical damage.


I honestly just want a revert. Higher base damage and ratios can be bitched about for a little bit, but the longer cooldowns and high mana costs will make those complaints die out as those high damage spells will be "less in their face" due to not being spammed so much.

Plus I miss the old Voidlings I had to actually care about. Y'know the sturdy ones you got to watch grow up during a 21 second period. The ones that you could direct with your auto attacks... and could pull back from being killed with its leash to deny the enemy laner gold after being chased out of lane by a well bounced E and a frenzied Voidling.

I miss the little guy.

Patience was a virtue on old Malzahar

Now we have spamzahar...

But wasnt it really squishy to start with then gone? Also 21 seconds? How far could he travel from you? Could he keep chasing across the map? XD

Beacon Academy1 votes

They were tankier than the Voidlings we have today.

Also after 7 seconds, they gained 50% armor to make them tankier.

The leash was 1700 I think.

Edit: Whoops meant to add this.

You had to actually think about when to spawn them during the laning phase.

Did they use their spells?

Which are they gonna go for? The Voidling worth 12 gold or the minions?

They used their spells and there is a minion wave to shield my Voidling? K. Cast fourth spell.

DW Diana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T21:20:19.804+0000)

They were tankier than the Voidlings we have today.

Also after 7 seconds, they gained 50% armor to make them tankier.

The leash was 1700 I think.

Edit: Whoops meant to add this.

You had to actually think about when to spawn them during the laning phase.

Did they use their spells?

Which are they gonna go for? The Voidling worth 12 gold or the minions?

They used their spells and there is a minion wave to shield my Voidling? K. Cast fourth spell.

Thanks for the info and the link. As I said in the OP, I never got to see pre-rework malz though I'll admit to being very interested. I'm guessing that was the era of ad malz I've heard so much about lol. Wish I was there.

In any case the proposed rework from the OP would also include items like BC and EC (I believe I used DD as the example for physical)

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T20:48:23.306+0000)

The passive was one of the reasons why he was allowed to have higher base and ratios for his spells.

Either you built AD to give bonus AD to Voidlings or you built AP for spell damage.

It was one or the other (Gunblade excluded).


There are four reasons why Malzahar had high base damage and high ratios pre-rework.

  1. He was an immobile champion... Automatic compensation for not being able to jump/dash around to get away from shit.

  2. High mana costs

  3. Longer cooldowns

  4. His passive benefited from AD only while his spells were only benefited by AP

Riot didn't understand this as they:

  1. Gave him a shield which made him safe and contradicts the amount of damage Voidlings/E resets did during the rework release.

  2. Lowered both mana costs and cooldowns... Turning him into a spam bot... Making his spells feel worse to use because they looked the same but did insanely less damage relatively than before the rework.

  3. gave him a fifth source of magic damage when they made tether deal damage while Voidlings were also doing mixed damage. This issue still is there except that Malzahar no longer has physical damage.


I honestly just want a revert. Higher base damage and ratios can be bitched about for a little bit, but the longer cooldowns and high mana costs will make those complaints die out as those high damage spells will be "less in their face" due to not being spammed so much.

Plus I miss the old Voidlings I had to actually care about. Y'know the sturdy ones you got to watch grow up during a 14 second period and die of old age at 21 seconds. The ones that you could direct with your auto attacks... and could pull back from being killed with its leash to deny the enemy laner gold after being chased out of lane by a well bounced E and a frenzied Voidling.

I miss the little guy.

Patience was a virtue on old Malzahar

Now we have Spamzahar with throw-away Voidlings/Spells...

Um...Old Malzahar could cast 2 Es with some CDR just like current can. They had the SAME cooldown, but E did a helluva lot more damage and Q had a silence. You're misremembering if you think old Malzahar had cooldowns or that his mana costs were a problem. His old Q was 3 seconds longer, sure, but his old E and R had the same cooldown as currently, and his E damage was off the charts. Sure his null zone had a long cooldown, but it was mostly used to help in waveclear, zoning, or when you ulted(which again, if you used it to help in waveclear your E would take care of the minions as they got low health, killing all of them and giving you your mana x2 back, considering you had that passive AND doran's ring, which gave more mana per kill as well in addition to mana regen) because it was easy to just walk out of otherwise. His high mana costs were negated by the fact that he gained a massive amount of mana every time his E killed a target(this was a FLAT amount of mana, not a percent, and it was way higher than anything he currently has. 3 mana at level 1 per minion kill? Try 10). The ONLY thing that holds true for the reasons of his high damage was that he's immobile, and his passive(which all passives were pretty much terrible back then, but even then it had decently high base damage. Yorick's ghouls were only 35% of his attack damage in the past with no base damage in comparison to Malzahar's which was between 27 base damage with 100% bAD ratio and 37 with a 150% bAD ratio at level 1 and 110/165 base damage at level 18, despite Yorick's ghouls being more broken because of their slows, movement speed buffs, and other such things).

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T21:31:45.306+0000)

Getting effected by his 650 range E by having it casted on you is one thing, but having it bounce from something onto you is entirely on you. No one said you had to stand near a dying minion with E on it... :/

Malzahar was the champ you wanted if you were the type of player that punished enemies on poor positioning.

And dude. Malefic Visions is a 650 range damage over time spell that deals flat damage

If people don't buy MR, that is their issue, not Malzahar's nor any other AP champions' fault.

650 range is higher than a lot of abilities., and it had an 80% AP ratio, unless you somehow got the visions off before they dealt the full damage, and he built liandry's, which was an OP item on the champions it was good on, while not so good on champions it wasn't. It's damage per level was 80/140/200/260/320 with an 80% AP ratio. His old E had ultimate level damage, and because it was DoT, it synergized with Rylai's/Liandry's, making it even more powerful. You also had BETTER AP/MR itemization back then. Now you pretty much only have Banshee's Veil, and it sucks. Abyssal and Athene's were at least good MR/AP items, but now they're shells of their former selves and not made for mid laners. Old Malzahar was nothing but an E machine. New Malzahar is at least more fun(or was, until they did all the stuff they did to him), but if he had a grounding ultimate at least he'd have good, semi avoidable damage.

As for standing near dying minions with E on it, you placed them ON dying minions, used W, and they all died, the visions bounced between every one finishing them off. Yeah, you didn't have to stand near the minion wave, but that was how you got your damage off most of the time. But you could just walk up and E them as well, it was just more favorable if they ever got near their minions to bounce it.

The idea was for it to slow not ground, and slowly expand.

A slow would counteract Rylai's(since it picks which is slower as I recall), and I don't think it'd do too much in league of hard CC. The voidlings coming out of it and the slowly getting bigger would be interesting, but if that were the case he'd need the voidlings on his W removed.

Beacon Academy2 votes

You seem to be underestimating how much of a difference 3 seconds is... Especially in addition to E being able to reset.

The longer cooldown was more for the "in your face" reason.

Malzahar now can E... Q... Reset E... E... R... Reset E... Q... Etc Etc.

If the spells are low cd and an aoe like CoTV is, it gets annoying to deal with when its constantly there.

i.e. Yasuo wouldn't be super annoying if his cooldowns were longer (E at 3 seconds vice 0.1 for example) [Hopefully my thought came across all right for this one... I'm not good with words]

Mana costs were strictly a reason for early game, where he wouldn't get good mana back until level 5 with rank 3 E. Until then he was pretty mana hungry as well as more vulnerable without shield.


"As for standing near dying minions with E on it, you placed them ON dying minions"

Also god forbid we predict stuff when playing against other people lol

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-21T23:10:02.765+0000)

You seem to be underestimating how much of a difference 3 seconds is... Especially in addition to E being able to reset.

The longer cooldown was more for the "in your face" reason.

Malzahar now can E... Q... Reset E... E... R... Reset E... Q... Etc Etc.

If the spells are low cd and an aoe like CoTV is, it gets annoying to deal with when its constantly there.

i.e. Yasuo wouldn't be super annoying if his cooldowns were longer (E at 3 seconds vice 0.1 for example) [Hopefully my thought came across all right for this one... I'm not good with words]

Mana costs were strictly a reason for early game, where he wouldn't get good mana back until level 5 with rank 3 E. Until then he was pretty mana hungry as well as more vulnerable without shield.


"As for standing near dying minions with E on it, you placed them ON dying minions"

Also god forbid we predict stuff when playing against other people lol

Predicting stuff and whatnot is fine, but again, he'd clear the whole wave. You have to be near your minions to clear your wave, while he is near yours. Yes you can predict he'll E a minion low health, but he can also CAUSE a minion to be low health, and then bounce it on you. It's not hard to land an E on a champion, and not all mid laners are ranged.

As for the whole E Q thing, his Q is hardly a problem, and all of his other abilities have the same cooldown as before(of course null zone is on his ult now, but he gets another ability in it's place). It was never a really big problem, unless it hit, and it's easy to dodge. You'd never use Q for poke, you'd use it when you were gonna all in someone, or if they all in'd you(because it was a huge silence with AOE damage attached that also refreshed your E). The cooldown increase on it is practically irrelevant. Maybe OCCASIONALLY you'd use Q, but there's never a time where I'd use Q every time it was up now, or then. 3 seconds on Q is not a huge difference. It also had more damage then(and a huge silence), and they lowered the damage while also lowering the cooldown to compensate, but again, that 3 seconds is nothing to really worry about. Most of his damage now comes from his R locking you in place while his minions are hitting you, not him being Cassiopeia 2.0.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Predicting stuff and whatnot is fine, but again, he'd clear the whole wave. You have to be near your minions to clear your wave, while he is near yours. Yes you can predict he'll E a minion low health, but he can also CAUSE a minion to be low health, and then bounce it on you. It's not hard to land an E on a champion, and not all mid laners are ranged.

Ok this is a side note conversation but nevertheless an interesting one and as it's concerning malefic visions I actually can comment (unlike the old voidling passive).

Getting your malefic visions to hit a champion is actually done very often by using q across the back line of caster minions and also the energy champion as well. With it's high base damage and good scaling its very simple to ensure it pings into them by waiting for them to get close. HOWEVER, with the current version of malzahar this is only something that works in late laning phase unless you have your void-spawns out, which are currently aa and dead. Also a lot of melee champions need not worry about this much as they can easily tank malefic visions at this point in the game (Yasou for example actually takes only a little more damage than his passive shield at even level and not only clears the wave in a second, but 1 shots your voidspawns for some extra gold and probably heals the damage taken thanks to a dorans blade).

For this reason a malzahar would normally prefer you to just back off and let him clear the wave, though in truth for the most part his bark is far worse than his bite. This is one of the major reasons i miss the kit from before his mini-rework last year. Back then if you got hit by malefic visions the malz would spawn his voidspawns and you'd run like hell lest they his you and summon another, and another until there were 6 of the little buggers hitting you and actually doing decent damage/tanking a couple of you hits. taking a hit from malefic visions back then could have you on 1/2 hp. Sadly it currently barely warrants a potion...

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T23:32:06.899+0000)

Ok this is a side note conversation but nevertheless an interesting one and as it's concerning malefic visions I actually can comment (unlike the old voidling passive).

Getting your malefic visions to hit a champion is actually done very often by using q across the back line of caster minions and also the energy champion as well. With it's high base damage and good scaling its very simple to ensure it pings into them by waiting for them to get close. HOWEVER, with the current version of malzahar this is only something that works in late laning phase unless you have your void-spawns out, which are currently aa and dead. Also a lot of melee champions need not worry about this much as they can easily tank malefic visions at this point in the game (Yasou for example actually takes only a little more damage than his passive shield at even level and not only clears the wave in a second, but 1 shots your voidspawns for some extra gold and probably heals the damage taken thanks to a dorans blade).

For this reason a malzahar would normally prefer you to just back off and let him clear the wave, though in truth for the most part his bark is far worse than his bite. This is one of the major reasons i miss the kit from before his mini-rework last year. Back then if you got hit by malefic visions the malz would spawn his voidspawns and you'd run like hell lest they his you and summon another, and another until there were 6 of the little buggers hitting you and actually doing decent damage/tanking a couple of you hits. taking a hit from malefic visions back then could have you on 1/2 hp. Sadly it currently barely warrants a potion...

Yes, but this guy wants a revert, which would mean his E alone would be dealing half your HP in damage. Possibly more with new Liandry's.

However what you want, is a champion with the ability to push you, pull you, and slow you, all while his minions deal increased damage to you, while also having the same damage as his OLD null zone(actually 1% more max HP at 500 AP AND more initial damage on cast), but ALSO making it team-wide, with a 50% slow. He doesn't need one of those abilities, and he certainly doesn't need all of them. It's too much.

Beacon Academy1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but this guy wants a revert, which would mean his E alone would be dealing half your HP in damage.

You've been saying this for awhile and its been confusing me on how to respond.

The old E was literally 320 + 80% AP

The new E is 220 + 80%

Resetting it even halfway through just once would make it 330 + 120% AP in raw damage.

And this is a version of Malzahar that can usually guarantee 2-3 resets.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=000100000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-22T04:25:15.558+0000)

You've been saying this for awhile and its been confusing me on how to respond.

The old E was literally 320 + 80% AP

The new E is 220 + 80%

Resetting it even halfway through just once would make it 330 + 120% AP in raw damage.

And this is a version of Malzahar that can usually guarantee 2-3 resets.

Well I was going to say maybe because you don't max E on Malzahar anymore, but apparently you do, and with those skill orders alone(E>Q>W and E>W>Q) he has a 59 and 61% win rate. With the right core item build he also has a 61% win rate. With the right rune tree he ALSO has a 60% win rate. So maybe if everyone who was playing Malzahar right now picked the same skill order, the same core build, and the same rune page, they'd be having a 60% win rate, according to the data.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Well I was going to say maybe because you don't max E on Malzahar anymore, but apparently you do, and with those skill orders alone(E>Q>W and E>W>Q) he has a 59 and 61% win rate. With the right core item build he also has a 61% win rate. With the right rune tree he ALSO has a 60% win rate. So maybe if everyone who was playing Malzahar right now picked the same skill order, the same core build, and the same rune page, they'd be having a 60% win rate, according to the data.

Please note I DO have a 60% winrate on Malzahar, and it was 65% before 8.4.

The purpose of this thread is to suggest reworks/reverts that don't make him a walking ult. It's about kill pressure, or the threat of it, without a point and click stun that is countered by 1100 gold and relies on someone else being there to do the damage.

As he stands malz is a support midlaner rather than a carry. Don't get me wrong I always loved malz for his utility, but right now that's kinda all hes got and that's largely down to his voidlings being useless.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but this guy wants a revert, which would mean his E alone would be dealing half your HP in damage. Possibly more with new Liandry's.

However what you want, is a champion with the ability to push you, pull you, and slow you, all while his minions deal increased damage to you, while also having the same damage as his OLD null zone(actually 1% more max HP at 500 AP AND more initial damage on cast), but ALSO making it team-wide, with a 50% slow. He doesn't need one of those abilities, and he certainly doesn't need all of them. It's too much.

He has a pull in the form of a charm, no push that I can see unless you count running away, null-zone does more damage then before because it's his ult and has a long cd/high mana cost. The size is smaller than the old null zone at the start but grows meaning people have a chance to escape it if they're fast enough. And yes the voidlings are the focus of the kit (I said that at the start) because that's what I feel the lore intends.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=000100000000000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-22T12:12:00.302+0000)

He has a pull in the form of a charm, no push that I can see unless you count running away, null-zone does more damage then before because it's his ult and has a long cd/high mana cost. The size is smaller than the old null zone at the start but grows meaning people have a chance to escape it if they're fast enough. And yes the voidlings are the focus of the kit (I said that at the start) because that's what I feel the lore intends.

The push was the fear, which is also a very nasty CC. It's one of the nastiest in fact. The ult does too much, he has too much CC, and I'm not sure if you're aware but 56% MAX HP damage is an insane number on it's own. It's just a little too much on every single ability. Everything does damage and CCs aside from one ability. He has 2 hard CCs, one soft CC, %max HP damage, regular damage. I'm pretty sure the reason Malzahar doesn't have that much CC outside of his ultimate is because of the fact that he has so much %max HP damage.

But even if he did have more CC and less damage, that amount of CC would kill someone, not because of the length of time they'd be CCed(that's around average), but because you could stop them TWICE, and slow them another. There's a reason chained CC is way stronger than one CC with the same amount of time. Plus if you hit them with current null zone's size(it's not that hard) and it keeps getting bigger they'd never get out at max rank without flash or ghost. It's just too much. The ult is a good idea imo(although maybe like I said, grounding would be good instead of slowing, so that they couldn't just flash out of it, but could actually walk out of it if they were trying or you hit them just with the edge of it. Decent counterplay on the enemy's end, but more rewarding on Malzahar's end for an ultimate if he hits it right). Dunno about the voidspawn thing though. It'd have to depend on if the null zone was strong enough. But really ALL he needs is an ult change, and maybe to get his first rework version back, maybe with some slightly slower voidlings so he doesn't become pick or ban again. The passive could be okay, but it might make him weaker. Another idea if you want this "seer version" passive would be kind of like Kindred's mark system, where you can pick any champion on the enemy team and "view them"(see them on the minimap regardless of fog of war) every minute or 2 minutes or something like that. It'd need a decent cooldown to not be overpowered but it'd fit with the seeing threats before they come and with a decent time limit it might not be overpowered.

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=00010000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-22T12:00:02.968+0000)

Please note I DO have a 60% winrate on Malzahar, and it was 65% before 8.4.

The purpose of this thread is to suggest reworks/reverts that don't make him a walking ult. It's about kill pressure, or the threat of it, without a point and click stun that is countered by 1100 gold and relies on someone else being there to do the damage.

As he stands malz is a support midlaner rather than a carry. Don't get me wrong I always loved malz for his utility, but right now that's kinda all hes got and that's largely down to his voidlings being useless.

I share that sentiment, he needs to go back to the beginning of his rework, maybe with slightly slower minions as I suggested above so he isn't pick or ban, but with a different ultimate.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

The push was the fear, which is also a very nasty CC. It's one of the nastiest in fact. The ult does too much, he has too much CC, and I'm not sure if you're aware but 56% MAX HP damage is an insane number on it's own. It's just a little too much on every single ability. Everything does damage and CCs aside from one ability. He has 2 hard CCs, one soft CC, %max HP damage, regular damage. I'm pretty sure the reason Malzahar doesn't have that much CC outside of his ultimate is because of the fact that he has so much %max HP damage.

But even if he did have more CC and less damage, that amount of CC would kill someone, not because of the length of time they'd be CCed(that's around average), but because you could stop them TWICE, and slow them another. There's a reason chained CC is way stronger than one CC with the same amount of time. Plus if you hit them with current null zone's size(it's not that hard) and it keeps getting bigger they'd never get out at max rank without flash or ghost. It's just too much. The ult is a good idea imo(although maybe like I said, grounding would be good instead of slowing, so that they couldn't just flash out of it, but could actually walk out of it if they were trying or you hit them just with the edge of it. Decent counterplay on the enemy's end, but more rewarding on Malzahar's end for an ultimate if he hits it right). Dunno about the voidspawn thing though. It'd have to depend on if the null zone was strong enough. But really ALL he needs is an ult change, and maybe to get his first rework version back, maybe with some slightly slower voidlings so he doesn't become pick or ban again. The passive could be okay, but it might make him weaker. Another idea if you want this "seer version" passive would be kind of like Kindred's mark system, where you can pick any champion on the enemy team and "view them"(see them on the minimap regardless of fog of war) every minute or 2 minutes or something like that. It'd need a decent cooldown to not be overpowered but it'd fit with the seeing threats before they come and with a decent time limit it might not be overpowered.

I wasn't thinking the fear would have much effect outside of teamfights if you target was killed but I suppose it could be chained quite nastily. 54%? Maybe if it did true damage but the base Mr of squishies now gives 28% reduction making this more like 39% while tanks have even more. I agree the kit might be a bit full but with removed the 0.5 fear affect on q I think its pretty balanced.

I share that sentiment, he needs to go back to the beginning of his rework, maybe with slightly slower minions as I suggested above so he isn't pick or ban, but with a different ultimate.

I don't think they need to be slower, in fact they need to have a movement speed buff like they used to. I'd love to see him go back to the days of spawning 2 little crabs who go crazy at the target of e or r and became 6 little crabs that then chased people out of lane. The ult needs to change, cc putting in one of his other abilities (not with a crowbar!), and with his void spawns reverted he might actually do a bit of damage again, even gasp Carry =0

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=00010000000000010000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-24T07:22:33.915+0000)

I wasn't thinking the fear would have much effect outside of teamfights if you target was killed but I suppose it could be chained quite nastily. 54%? Maybe if it did true damage but the base Mr of squishies now gives 28% reduction making this more like 39% while tanks have even more. I agree the kit might be a bit full but with removed the 0.5 fear affect on q I think its pretty balanced.

I don't think they need to be slower, in fact they need to have a movement speed buff like they used to. I'd love to see him go back to the days of spawning 2 little crabs who go crazy at the target of e or r and became 6 little crabs that then chased people out of lane. The ult needs to change, cc putting in one of his other abilities (not with a crowbar!), and with his void spawns reverted he might actually do a bit of damage again, even gasp Carry =0

The thing about this is when Malz was first reworked he was the most banned champion in the game. He was practically oppressive. It wasn't until they nerfed practically everything in his kit, removed good features, etc, until he became trash outside of support. If they just lowered their movement speed by a bit he wouldn't have been near as much of a problem, but instead they basically gutted everything.

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-24T07:32:54.137+0000)

I understand your view but lots of champions do mixed damage and have dual scaling abilities that only give one damage type. And the basis for the Voidlings I describe in the OP is the void swarm he had last year before the mini rework. As mentioned in the OP I wasn't there for the one before but prefer the asthetic of the voidswarm I used when I first started malz.

Nearly ALL champions who deal mixed damage, don't have an AP ratio for their physical damage, or an AD ratio for their magic damage. This is to separate their possible build paths. If you give Malzahar an AP ratio on PHYSICAL damage, you'll make him ALWAYS built AP, in addition you won't be able to build against him so he'll pubstomp anyone that he counters even a little bit because there will be no coming back. Malzahar does good damage, you don't want to give him an AP ratio on PHYSICAL damage. The only champion I can think of with physical damage with an AP ratio is Shaco's E, and it's only because it's his only damaging ability aside from his boxes.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

The thing about this is when Malz was first reworked he was the most banned champion in the game. He was practically oppressive. It wasn't until they nerfed practically everything in his kit, removed good features, etc, until he became trash outside of support. If they just lowered their movement speed by a bit he wouldn't have been near as much of a problem, but instead they basically gutted everything.

When the mini-rework came out last year the main complaint regarding them was their hp actually, though tbh it was his passive and ult everyone REALLY hated. He wasn't banned that much (I was only playing him and had no trouble getting him) and the very first change i remember was 7.3 when the nerfed the voildings damage (not speed).

Nearly ALL champions who deal mixed damage, don't have an AP ratio for their physical damage, or an AD ratio for their magic damage. This is to separate their possible build paths. If you give Malzahar an AP ratio on PHYSICAL damage, you'll make him ALWAYS built AP, in addition you won't be able to build against him so he'll pubstomp anyone that he counters even a little bit because there will be no coming back. Malzahar does good damage, you don't want to give him an AP ratio on PHYSICAL damage. The only champion I can think of with physical damage with an AP ratio is Shaco's E, and it's only because it's his only damaging ability aside from his boxes.

Well it took me one guess to find another: Jax leaping strike. Seconds look, akali crescent slash. It's really not as uncommon as you're making out dude and as I say it's likely to be a negative towards his kit not a positive (most people who want to build defensive start with? ARMOUR). It also was a good way to balance his charm effect so the voidlings didn't always gain the benefits.

HOWEVER, if riot for any reason decided to take up the Malz crusade and use this EXACT rework for it and didn't like the ap into physical I will say here and now, that's fine riot as long as you're doing SOMETHING to fix our beloved Void Prophet! xD

DW Diana1 votes

A slow would counteract Rylai's(since it picks which is slower as I recall), and I don't think it'd do too much in league of hard CC.

Yes it would be replacing rylais effect within its area, but it would be a much stronger affect, allowing chasedown in a short lane without it being hard cc. This would also aid hard cc hitting in teamfights, enable engage and disengage as well. Also GP ult seems to do ok

The voidlings coming out of it and the slowly getting bigger would be interesting, but if that were the case he'd need the voidlings on his W removed.

The extra void spawns were 1 per person giving it a larger impact in a teamfight if used at the right time and place, while not allowing them all to stack on one poor sod. Get hit, get a voidspawn.

DW Diana1 votes

Sorry guys, very good points from someone but in a different thread. Gunna paste them here with my responses.

{quoted}

I was a full HP Katarina, I E>W>Q'd him, he ulted me, I used QSS, E'd to my other dagger and ulted and his minions nearly killed me before I killed him. He didn't have great CS either, as I killed him every time he came to lane basically before he got ult. He had a catalyst(and maybe a blasting wand) if I recall while I had a gunblade.

Strange that he did that much damage on you with only a catalyst/blasting wand. I've tested his full ult combo (e, w, r) on a Kat in a custom where I have a lost chapter and dorans ring and they were level 5 with dark seal and i only did 45% of her hp...

As for the rework idea, personally I don't like it. He has too many ways to keep his kit, mixed damage(which means you can't build against him), and while I do think he needs his null zone as an ability back, I don't think he needs to be this iteration of a rework.

Keep his kit? The idea of this was it can be built any number of ways, including the current one. Also the dual damage on him was designed as a flaw but I guess maybe if is a plus in some ways. My thinking was there is more ad than ap in the game so building armor as standard would help mitigate some of his damage from tanks, while still keeping him viable against mages/adc's/assassins

As for being a seer, they are basically people who see the future which would be impossible to do in League of Legends. I'd rather he get a sort of Kassadin ultimate styled warp ability for mobility(on a decent cooldown), and his null zone be changed into his ultimate(like you said), but it grounds enemies inside of the circle. The twist is that it's an ability he has to sort of at least aim to land on someone and the grounding would make his minions stick, which is what he needs. He may not even need the mobility with his null zone R like that.

I take it you didn't read the bit about faster movement speed towards enemies with impaired movement or actions. That was meant to give them sticking power without overtuning it what with rylais still being useful on malefic visions. With the seer bit having improved vision in league is tantamount to seeing the future (e.g. jungler coming down river towards bot lane).

Anyway I didn't want to hijack Ernie's post, but feel free to comment further on the thread. I'll post these comments in there as well.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-21T19:09:18.210+0000)

Sorry guys, very good points from someone but in a different thread. Gunna paste them here with my responses.

{quoted}

Strange that he did that much damage on you with only a catalyst/blasting wand. I've tested his full ult combo (e, w, r) on a Kat in a custom where I have a lost chapter and dorans ring and they were level 5 with dark seal and i only did 45% of her hp...

Keep his kit? The idea of this was it can be built any number of ways, including the current one. Also the dual damage on him was designed as a flaw but I guess maybe if is a plus in some ways. My thinking was there is more ad than ap in the game so building armor as standard would help mitigate some of his damage from tanks, while still keeping him viable against mages/adc's/assassins

I take it you didn't read the bit about faster movement speed towards enemies with impaired movement or actions. That was meant to give them sticking power without overtuning it what with rylais still being useful on malefic visions. With the seer bit having improved vision in league is tantamount to seeing the future (e.g. jungler coming down river towards bot lane).

Anyway I didn't want to hijack Ernie's post, but feel free to comment further on the thread. I'll post these comments in there as well.

Well a blasting wand is more AP than a lost chapter, and of course he'd have doran's ring as well. I don't remember our levels however. As for the physical damage, he can already be built AD, but he doesn't need physical DAMAGE. That would allow him to build AP and still get past MR. He shouldn't be an exception to such a rule, unless you give him adaptive damage on his minions, or make it so his minions do half magic/half physical with different scalings on both types of damage, in which case he would have to build for the physical damage, this would make him impossible to build against. The reason his minions do magic damage and only magic damage is because if they dealt physical damage with AP scaling it would make him impossible to build against.

As for the faster move speed towards impaired enemies, there are other ways to get faster movement speed towards enemies that are impaired without putting it in his kit(Approach Velocity does this exact thing).

Null Zone having a grounding effect with all the damage it currently does would be just fine for an ultimate, and it'd work with the rest of his current kit. It would probably need a delay similar to Veigar E, so that you're able to know it's coming, but I feel like that's all he needs to be fair. If you hit your ultimate no one would be able to get away from your minions, if you missed it, or they flashed it before the null zone appeared, you got outplayed, but it'd be an AOE grounding field with counterplay(he'd cuck most mobile champions, which iirc was what he was supposed to do originally).

Beacon Academy1 votes

First of all, Malzahar was perfectly fine before his rework with Voidlings that did physical damage.

Why?

Because Voidling damage was 100% physical damage... By which I mean there was no magic damage dealt by it.

This meant he either built AD to give his Voidlings a boost or he would build AP to give his spells damage. (One of the reasons why he had such good ratios)

Also, it took 4 spells to summon one and 14 seconds for that one to reach full potential. (This made you think about Voidling management... Unlike these throw-away ones we have now)


Secondly, bruh... You say blasting wand had more AP but... You forget that you mentioned that you also had QSS. Magic resistance hurts a lot for a DoT mage.


I personally just want a revert. All the old Malz mains know that Riot needed a mage to rework during the MYMU and Malzahar drew the short straw. Its insanely easy for them to spit out a few generic reasons that could be applied to most champions for the rework that non-Malzahar players would believe simply because they said so and due to most people not playing Malzahar back then with his 3-4% playrate.

Old Malzahar was never mass bitched about except for maybe after his release

Old Malzahar didn't get nerfed during a 5-6 year period until Deathfire Touch got Null Zone nerfed.

In fact, he was getting quality of life buffs up until Deathfire Touch.


The fact is that neither Riot nor a vast majority of the community ever understood old Malzahar, opting to change him on what non-players saw most from him (The memorable Voidlings/Ult), instead of what Malzahar mains actually used him for.

Even if a kit is simple, it can be extremely flexible.

Riot proved they don't understand this nor did they understand Malzahar by saying "Null Zone was only used with Nether Grasp"

Obviously a 14s CD pool is going to be cast more often than an 80s ult.

Did Malzahar mains just opt not to use pool ever unless Ult was up? No.

Then what did they use it for...?

The world will never know because they never tried to know... And now it is stuck on his Ult...

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T20:30:29.337+0000)

First of all, Malzahar was perfectly fine before his rework with Voidlings that did physical damage.

Why?

Because Voidling damage was 100% physical damage... By which I mean there was no magic damage dealt by it.

This meant he either built AD to give his Voidlings a boost or he would build AP to give his spells damage. (One of the reasons why he had such good ratios)

Also, it took 4 spells to summon one and 14 seconds for that one to reach full potential. (This made you think about Voidling management... Unlike these throw-away ones we have now)


Secondly, bruh... You say blasting wand had more AP but... You forget that you mentioned that you also had QSS. Magic resistance hurts a lot for a DoT mage.


I personally just want a revert. All the old Malz mains know that Riot needed a mage to rework during the MYMU and Malzahar drew the short straw. Its insanely easy for them to spit out a few generic reasons that could be applied to most champions for the rework that non-Malzahar players would believe simply because they said so and due to most people not playing Malzahar back then with his 3-4% playrate.

Old Malzahar was never mass bitched about except for maybe after his release

Old Malzahar didn't get nerfed during a 5-6 year period until Deathfire Touch got Null Zone nerfed.

In fact, he was getting quality of life buffs up until Deathfire Touch.


The fact is that neither Riot nor a vast majority of the community ever understood old Malzahar, opting to change him on what non-players saw most from him (The memorable Voidlings/Ult), instead of what Malzahar mains actually used him for.

Even if a kit is simple, it can be extremely flexible.

Riot proved they don't understand this nor did they understand Malzahar by saying "Null Zone was only used with Nether Grasp"

Obviously a 14s CD pool is going to be cast more often than an 80s ult.

Did Malzahar mains just opt not to use pool ever unless Ult was up? No.

Then what did they use it for...?

The world will never know because they never tried to know... And now it is stuck on his Ult...

It was 100% AD ratio with no AP ratio and physical damage. That's ENTIRELY different than having physical damage with an AP ratio. Which is what I said.

Malzahar was a problem with his old kit because all he did was E you and walk away while you took 50% of your HP from that one ability(or E'd a minion near you, it spread, and did the same thing). It wasn't healthy. The old W was used outside of his ult, for zoning purposes mainly, it wasn't going to do very much without his ult because people just walked out of it. He doesn't need one ability to do all of his damage outside of his ult locking them down into a 100% death sentence. That was old Malz. The new Malz was good, before they touched him(I mean he could have taken some damage nerfs, but nothing like the crazy stuff they did that pushed him into the support role). All he needs now is a more counterplayable ult with a way to stick his damage onto them, which I proposed. I played old Malz, until I got bored with him because he felt so easy. You got more mana back on E than you used, you dealt more damage with it as well, and cleared waves with ease, while also able to deal 50% of someone's health with one E as long as you had Liandrys.

Beacon Academy1 votes

Getting effected by his 650 range E by having it casted on you is one thing, but having it bounce from something onto you is entirely on you. No one said you had to stand near a dying minion with E on it... :/

Malzahar was the champ you wanted if you were the type of player that punished enemies on poor positioning.

And dude. Malefic Visions is a 650 range damage over time spell that deals flat damage

If people don't buy MR, that is their issue, not Malzahar's nor any other AP champions' fault.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

It was 100% AD ratio with no AP ratio and physical damage. That's ENTIRELY different than having physical damage with an AP ratio. Which is what I said.

I understand your view but lots of champions do mixed damage and have dual scaling abilities that only give one damage type. And the basis for the Voidlings I describe in the OP is the void swarm he had last year before the mini rework. As mentioned in the OP I wasn't there for the one before but prefer the asthetic of the voidswarm I used when I first started malz.

DW Diana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WAAgqGQE,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T20:30:29.337+0000)

First of all, Malzahar was perfectly fine before his rework with Voidlings that did physical damage.

Why?

Because Voidling damage was 100% physical damage... By which I mean there was no magic damage dealt by it.

This meant he either built AD to give his Voidlings a boost or he would build AP to give his spells damage. (One of the reasons why he had such good ratios)

Also, it took 4 spells to summon one and 14 seconds for that one to reach full potential. (This made you think about Voidling management... Unlike these throw-away ones we have now)


Secondly, bruh... You say blasting wand had more AP but... You forget that you mentioned that you also had QSS. Magic resistance hurts a lot for a DoT mage.


I personally just want a revert. All the old Malz mains know that Riot needed a mage to rework during the MYMU and Malzahar drew the short straw. Its insanely easy for them to spit out a few generic reasons that could be applied to most champions for the rework that non-Malzahar players would believe simply because they said so and due to most people not playing Malzahar back then with his 3-4% playrate.

Old Malzahar was never mass bitched about except for maybe after his release

Old Malzahar didn't get nerfed during a 5-6 year period until Deathfire Touch got Null Zone nerfed.

In fact, he was getting quality of life buffs up until Deathfire Touch.


The fact is that neither Riot nor a vast majority of the community ever understood old Malzahar, opting to change him on what non-players saw most from him (The memorable Voidlings/Ult), instead of what Malzahar mains actually used him for.

Even if a kit is simple, it can be extremely flexible.

Riot proved they don't understand this nor did they understand Malzahar by saying "Null Zone was only used with Nether Grasp"

Obviously a 14s CD pool is going to be cast more often than an 80s ult.

Did Malzahar mains just opt not to use pool ever unless Ult was up? No.

Then what did they use it for...?

The world will never know because they never tried to know... And now it is stuck on his Ult...

Interesting. So did his voidling scale entire by ad? What other effects worked? On hit?

Beacon Academy1 votes

Old Voidlings scaled by level and off of 100% bonus AD and physical penetration.

As for what they applied, they applied anything tagged with physical damage.

i.e. item 3071 or item 3123

You can see what his old abilities were at:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Malzahar

in the history tab

DW Diana1 votes

As for the faster move speed towards impaired enemies, there are other ways to get faster movement speed towards enemies that are impaired without putting it in his kit(Approach Velocity does this exact thing).

It was extra movement for the void spawn.

Null Zone having a grounding effect with all the damage it currently does would be just fine for an ultimate, and it'd work with the rest of his current kit. It would probably need a delay similar to Veigar E, so that you're able to know it's coming, but I feel like that's all he needs to be fair. If you hit your ultimate no one would be able to get away from your minions, if you missed it, or they flashed it before the null zone appeared, you got outplayed, but it'd be an AOE grounding field with counterplay(he'd cuck most mobile champions, which iirc was what he was supposed to do originally).

The idea was for it to slow not ground, and slowly expand.

deadlychuck1 votes

The fact that such a rework is being proposed goes to show how far they've strayed from the design of the old malzahar.

I don't give a flying fuck about the lore or theme of the character, i just care that they're fun to play. If riot wanted to release a champion who literally ripped off all of malzahar's lore and void style spells, and put them on another character, fine, but there's no excuse for removing the old champion in the process of doing so.

Revert the champion or release the old kit on a new champion if he gets another rework which is intended to move him even further from the play style which he use to have.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

The fact that such a rework is being proposed goes to show how far they've strayed from the design of the old malzahar.

I don't give a flying fuck about the lore or theme of the character, i just care that they're fun to play. If riot wanted to release a champion who literally ripped off all of malzahar's lore and void style spells, and put them on another character, fine, but there's no excuse for removing the old champion in the process of doing so.

Revert the champion or release the old kit on a new champion if he gets another rework which is intended to move him even further from the play style which he use to have.

I feel the suggested rework is a good balance between his old kit and his pre-mini rework. In both cases the emphasis was on how and when you used your voidlings, not when you had your ult up and there was someone ready to do the damage.

jocomotion1 votes

That passives a little too nutty to be in a carry like Malz. You don’t want him Azir’d do you?

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

That passives a little too nutty to be in a carry like Malz. You don’t want him Azir’d do you?

What's nutty about it? It's not designed to give a huge advantage, only to give you a slight vision advantage over your opponents (the closest thing to being able to see into the future I could come up with)

Mataka Tek1 votes

Been complaining about for years... nothing but Nerfs... Riot has made no effort to give Malz any competitive scaling.

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