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A new Brutalizer item? How about-

Rebonack··14 votes·1,907 views

item 1038 +item 3134 = Unicorn Lance Grants AD, CDR, and: UNIQUE passive: Your basic attacks can no longer critically strike. However, you gain bonus armor penetration equal to (percentage) of your bonus attack damage.

One of the biggest problems with trying to create a quintessential AD caster item is the way scaling bonus AD or armor pen interacts with Crit. Someone with said AD caster item, Infinity Edge, and their IAS/Crit item of choice would be a complete monster. However, by rigging the item to disable critical strikes suddenly this thing doesn't look so nice to the average right-clicker unless, of course, they completely ignore crit chance. Such an item would fill a glaring void in the game's AD options.

Chances are it would put a few AD assassins over the top since AD ratios are artificially over-inflated due to lack of itemization options, but I think a few targeted ratio nerfs are a small price to pay for more robust AD options.

Thoughts?

39 Comments

The Ecdysiast6 votes

10/10 Walrus idea has more votes than best.

junglerboy161 votes

Hint: That's because Walrus actually means best.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Hint: That's because Walrus actually means best.

This man understands it.

AzureInTheDark3 votes

Finally, something Renekton can use! Renekton

theragingnerd1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure KayZ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W331BRlU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-06-22T17:11:31.873+0000)

Finally, something Renekton can use! Renekton

oh my god nerf renekton then he can't be used against my riven main ass QQ

Wînter Fox3 votes

Only if we name it Robot Unicorn Lance Hecarim Always I want to be with you~

ZileanUltJesusOP2 votes

10/10 would bang

Rebonack2 votes

Too strong. WAY too strong.

Hmmm...

and a lot of others, but it's not that viable

Seems we have a conflict of opinion here.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

it really depends on the champion using the item - on someone like Urgot, Fiora, Talon, or Zed, it would be too strong. Jarvan, Lee Sin, Rengar or Pantheon? probably not so much.

Jayce is in the middle, depending on how you build him. His poke could be amazing if you had an item like this, but thats in exchange for his 'secondary ADC' damage if you build Ghostblade + IE.

EDIT - another problem is the balance around this item. I, for one, love building the Ghostblade+IE combo on any AD assassin. Would i give up a 35% chance to crit with my Q when i have 400 AD on talon? heck no.

grLKQ9ma0o1 votes

Are you kidding? It's too strong on literally any non-crit based champion. Lee Sin has incredibly high scaling abilities (which is what allows him to build bruiser without too much difficulty doing damage). His ult alone scales 200% bonus AD. Because this item's components offer 75 AD, it would have to be at least a 75 AD item, probably 80. With a 180% scaling Q (90 on both parts), a 100% scaling E, and a 200% scaling ultimate, that much AD and armor penetration would put him over the top.

Remember warrior enchant? 45 AD, 10% CDR, and 10 armor pen. It was too strong, so they nerfed it to 40 AD, then made tanks stronger.

Having 80 AD and more armor pen wouldn't be balanced at all, especially since it wouldn't be something you build only on jungle champions.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

the thing is, the components may be strong, but their cost is high - 1550 for a BF, 1337 for a Brutalizer. All BF items have 80 damage. Youre looking at a 3800 in cost at least - the only offensive BF item that comes close in stats would be the I.E.

Lee Sin with only this item would not be as strong as you think - you would practically have warrior + last whisper for that price, giving you similar AD and more scaling armor pen (note: this is an assumption, of course, assuming the Pen from this item wont exceed 20 or so. Especially since most AD casters will buy a last whisper too). As long as its limited to flat penetration, 80 ad, and a high cost, its similar in strength to getting Warrior + Last Whisper. If that combination isnt broken on Lee Sin, then this item shouldnt be broken on Lee Sin.

I say its not optimal on Lee Sin for the same reason you dont see Full AD lee sin too often - yes, great scaling abilities, but very weak teamfights if you dont build tanky.

grLKQ9ma0o1 votes

You're right about him building tanky, and also about it basically being warrior/last whisper. So why build warrior and last whisper when you could just lane with him and build one item that does it all, then go tanky? You take up one fewer slot and get just as much.

This item would have to be 4000 gold for it to actually not be too gold efficient. Straight up.

It IS optimal on Lee Sin, and Rengar, and Kha'zix, and literally everyone else that is an AD caster/auto champion that doesn't rely on crit. It does the job of 2 items in just one, freeing up space for more itemization.

Blastermine2 votes

The only downside i can see is that loosing crit means that you can't get hilarious instakills via item 3142 's 15% crit chance.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

The only downside i can see is that loosing crit means that you can't get hilarious instakills via item 3142 's 15% crit chance.

Hilarious though it might be, that's just how things have to roll.

Though, I suppose it MIGHT be possible to keep Crit if the item gave, say, minus fifty Crit Damage. An anti-IE, as it were. That way you could still get something out of Crit, it would just be nerfed.

Though, really, I think just having it totally remove the ability to Crit would be a cleaner solution.

Shrek Luigi2 votes

Armor Pen that scales on attack power seems like something that would be impossibly difficult to implement without being ridiculously broken/an essential buy on every non-ADC that has notable AD scaling.

If more brutalizer-buildoffs are released, which they DEFINITELY SHOULD, they should be niche-items that offer utility, counterplay, sustain.....that kind of thing, not raw killing power.

item 3134 item 1006 item 1006 item 1004 with a moderate combine cost, and a unique active that offers a flash on a 180 sec cooldown, or something like that.

Rebonack1 votes

Ren, Lee, Zed, Panth, Graves, AD Malz, Wukong, Jman, Vi, Noc, Talon, Kha, the list goes on.

Most anyone with good AD scaling and any degree of reliance on their skills for damage would want an item like this. It is a hole in itemization that has been around for quite some time.

grLKQ9ma0o1 votes

But it doesn't alleviate any problems for any champions. It's too strong by A TON.

Imagine this item on Riven. It gives her at least 75 AD (from components), probably 10% cdr (which she scales super hard off of), and flat armor penetration, which already does far too much for her kit. This item is literally unstoppable. It's like Cleaver and Ghostblade had some sort of Kryptonian baby.

Stiv12341 votes

I chose walrus idea because I have no idea what it means.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Unicorn Lance is best Walrus

Qarekeo1 votes

Unicorn Lance? Finally, an item perfect for Soraka Soraka !

EDIT: I actually read the rest of the post. I'd be wary of items that negate other stats completely for the sake of a certain bonus. Anyone building this would be losing quite a few build options and strategies because of the passive. Maybe instead of negating critical chance, it could be more like new Ashe's passive ability and modify what happens when your champion builds for critical chance?

With that in mind, the question of what specifically AD casters want separately from auto-attackers still remains. Maybe a chance for a special proc like Statikk Shiv or Luden's Echo on spell-cast instead of critical strikes? Maybe a stacking buff over time?

Naagaloshi1 votes

An item like this would make a big difference on Bruisers

Maple Crusader1 votes

I like this idea. Very few bruisers require crit. Most of them really need a good penetration item with CDR though, so this seems like a good fit since the BC change.

Rebonack1 votes

EDIT: I actually read the rest of the post. I'd be wary of items that negate other stats completely for the sake of a certain bonus. Anyone building this would be losing quite a few build options and strategies because of the passive.

I know what you mean.

See, the problem is that unless an item like this in some way nerfs (or in this case negates) Crit, then there's simply no way an AD caster item that multiplies relevant AD caster stats (pen and Bonus AD) could be added without making Rangers and other auto-attack focused champions absolutely insane.

Think of it as a Named Passive like Spellblade. You don't really buy Spellblade items together because they don't stack (some weirdness with Iceborn aside). An item having the Spellblade passive limits your item choices because allowing them to stack would be too powerful. Which is exactly the case with Crit and AD/ArPen multipliers.

It is an imperfect solution.

But given the tools we have at our disposal, I think it's the best way to fill a hole in itemization. And honestly, I think it makes for a neat choice players can make. Do I want to amp my skills significantly? Or do I want to pimp out my auto-attacks?

grLKQ9ma0o1 votes

Too strong. WAY too strong.

The item parts themselves give 75 AD. That means that it would ultimately end at least at 75 AD, probably 80. If the ratio for armor pen was 10%, that means that bonus AD on someone like Kalista (who doesn't care about crit in most builds) would give her an extra 30 armor pen at full build on top of last whisper. Even if you moved it onto someone like Zed, Zed should never be given straight up 50 flat armor penetration (20 from ghostblade and 30 from this item). Many squishy champions only have like 80 armor late game.

The problem is that flat penetration is not the stat that needs buffing. All it does is evaporate squishies. You need percentage penetration, because that is what affects tanks.

Rebonack1 votes

The problem is that flat penetration is not the stat that needs buffing. All it does is evaporate squishies. You need percentage penetration, because that is what affects tanks.

The whole point of this item is to improve damage against soft targets, primarily?

We already have Cleaver and Whisper for going after hard targets. Those two items combined hit a bit over 60% armor penetration when multiplicative stacking is taken into account. That's plenty.

Imagine this item on Riven. It gives her at least 75 AD (from components), probably 10% cdr (which she scales super hard off of), and flat armor penetration, which already does far too much for her kit.

So what you're saying is that this item, if added to the game, would get Riven Olaf'd?

Sounds win-win to me.

This item is literally unstoppable. It's like Cleaver and Ghostblade had some sort of Kryptonian baby.

Two armor items would stop it pretty solidly. And if someone took this thing along with Cleaver and Whisper, well, that is a TON of investment into defeating armor. If someone has sunk about 9k gold into destroying armor, then they had damn well better destroy some armor.

3TWarrior1 votes

so basically, you're wanting garen to be one of the only champs that uses this XD

it'd be interesting, but it would wreck the primary purpose of it. the 30% item would work better because it has no drawbacks, meanwhile, anyone else that used this could lose a large portion of their damage

riven could use it and a lot of others, but it's not that viable

Cavemantero1 votes

liked the idea. don't like who would use it. assassin play is already stronk.

Meep Man1 votes

Make it...

URF'S SUNKIN SPATULA

instead and we got a deal, by the way, the % should be about 12.5%. That makes it have 10 armor penetration alone since it will be 80 AD item most likely and then scale as the build progresses.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

That actually sounds really good for those that would rather have an amped up consistent performance over the random chance of getting something like a Talon E + Passive + IE + Q Crit (which is a metric fuckton if you haven't experienced it yet).

Woken Spectre 1 votes

That's actually the first time in a while i see a Brutalizer suggestion which doesn't look irrelevant/OP/Toxic, The only thing that could be a problem is crit itself, because then you get nothing from crit anymore, maybe something like Ashe on the Armor shred : Armor penetration bonus equals base ( if any)+( X(AD)+ X( CRITCHANCE)

Also i'd give it a really high combination price, to avoid AD solo laners assasin from getting it, makes sense regarding the power of the item once your full build, (Lucidity/Unicorn Lance/LW/ER(if it gets something more one day/and 2 others item) could get really funny for some (Graves intensifies)

FastAsHeck1 votes

i think it should be something like an anti-ashe passive, where you cant crit but your crit chance is converted to a bonus. now, if you are getting this you are probably not planning on getting more crit, so the bonus shouldnt be huge value, but if for example you have a item 3142 that crit chance shouldnt go to waste.

junglerboy161 votes

so if it was something like 15% bonus AD as arpen, then a guy with 300 bonus AD would get 45% arpen. add in a LW and you have 80% arpen, but no crit. That could really make someone like Talon explosively overpowered (as in instagibbing a 4k HP target because their armor is meaningless) maybe instead of % pen, it should give % of bonus AD as flat pen, that way at a 20% conversion, with 300 bonus AD you get 60 flat, which is fantastic against squishies, but not as outlandishly potent against a tank.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

so if it was something like 15% bonus AD as arpen, then a guy with 300 bonus AD would get 45% arpen. add in a LW and you have 80% arpen, but no crit. That could really make someone like Talon explosively overpowered (as in instagibbing a 4k HP target because their armor is meaningless) maybe instead of % pen, it should give % of bonus AD as flat pen, that way at a 20% conversion, with 300 bonus AD you get 60 flat, which is fantastic against squishies, but not as outlandishly potent against a tank.

The item as suggested doesn't give %Penetration, it provides flat armor penetration. We've already got Whisper and Cleaver, which grant right around 60% armor pen when multiplicative stacking is taken into account. Honestly, that's plenty. This item, like Ghostblade, would be primarily focused on destroying soft targets.

It could (potentially) provide flat bonus AD instead. That might be easier to balance around. I'm not really sure. Either way, the goal of the item is to provide an alternative means of multiplicative scaling that isn't Crit-related for attack damage.

Nilok1 votes

What happens if someone has a passive like Panth's heartseeker that says he always crits again 15% hp or less enemies, or Ashe who doesn't crit at all now but still gets bonuses from the stats?

These interactions of special crit interaction need to be solved.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

What happens if someone has a passive like Panth's heartseeker that says he always crits again 15% hp or less enemies, or Ashe who doesn't crit at all now but still gets bonuses from the stats?

These interactions of special crit interaction need to be solved.

Indeed they do!

With Panth, I would imagine it wouldn't be an issue there. The passive would basically state 'your bonus Crit Chance from items/runes is set to 0%'. That would still allow Panth to get his ability-based Crit in. Ostensibly Try's Crit% from his Innate would be preserved as well.

Ashe, however... Well. It would pretty much just erase her Innate since it doesn't actually grant any crit chance. It just changes crit chance into another stat. Buying Unicorn Lance on her would be about as silly as buying Frozen Mallet.

Fini of Legend1 votes

Yes... YES!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhvjouozgw4

WUAHAAHAHAH!

Rinky Dinky1 votes

you realize that this would break the kits of Tryndamere and Pantheon, whom have built in crits.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lane Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W331BRlU,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2015-06-23T18:17:56.518+0000)

you realize that this would break the kits of Tryndamere and Pantheon, whom have built in crits.

I do realize that, yes.

Both champions need some pretty serious work already. The inclusion of Unicorn Lance would just provide an impetus to get it done.

Rebonack1 votes

Buying Unicorn Lance all on its own and then going tanky would actually be a pretty awful idea. Unless the scaling factor were absurdly high, you would be better off just grabbing Cleaver and going tanky after that. It would take quite a bit of AD for the Lance to match up with Cleaver's penetration even against soft targets.

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