Long Live the Spider Queen: an In-Depth Attempt to Return Elise to Glory!

Auturgist··14 votes·1,489 views
Long Live the Spider Queen: an In-Depth Attempt to Return Elise to Glory! * /r/leagueoflegends

[Note: I originally posted this over on reddit's /r/leagueoflegends, but figured I should cross-post here as well...]

I think many Elise players would agree that these patch 5.12 "buffs" to the Spider Queen leave much to be desired. For me, personally, they feel like flavorless attempts to achieve bottom line results in terms of her pick, ban, and win rates. Often, it seems, when Riot talks about Elise, the subject of her identity is brought up. I don't know that anyone doubted her identity when she was released, even if everyone agrees that she was way too strong back then. So, my attempt to fix her involves no drastic changes to her kit, but an attempt to increase the rewards for playing her both intelligently and proficiently, while addressing those aspects of her kit that are either problematic or emblematic of our great Spider Queen!

That said, the title of this post begins "Long Live the Spider Queen", and that hints at what I believe the identity of Elise to be. Though some might think she ought to be an AP Assassin, I much prefer playing her as an AP Tank. But, to be fair, I believe both should be viable; if she's to live long, it shouldn't matter whether it's because she's hard to kill OR because she simply dispatches enemies first -- at least as long as she allows her enemies the opportunity of counterplay.

That said, I don't see any reason to replace any of her current abilities. (In fact, I did absolutely nothing to her Neurotoxin/Venomous Bite, nor did I change Volatile Spiderling; I did change Skittering Frenzy, though I'll discuss that much later.) Rather, in the interest of making her more playable, I'd like to buff some of them -- not by simply increasing the numbers on her damage abilities, but by better rewarding excellent decision-making and proficient mechanical play. Obviously, I started with Cocoon and Rappel...

One of the biggest complaints about Elise right now is that she doesn't scale well into the late game, and that she becomes just a Cocoon bot for her team. This isn't an intrinsic problem with Cocoon, because if she did more damage, people wouldn't complain that CC is all she brought to battles at that stage of the game. But, if we simply increase her damage output, it becomes too easy for her to start dominating again. The width of Cocoon was reduced from its original value back in 4.13, making it more difficult to land, and that nerf was both warranted and effective. So, rather than revert that change, why not indirectly increase her damage output, contingent on landing Cocoon and capitalizing on it? With this in mind, I added a component that will do just that, and scale into the late game. Also, I changed the name to "Caustic Cocoon", so we can all appropriately abbreviate it in chat as "CC" -- seemed like a no-brainer to me! Her new Caustic Cocoon does everything the old non-caustic version did, but also reduces the target's Armor and Magic Resistance for the duration of the stun by a fair value that scales directly with the rank of the ability, so it will never get out of hand.

As for Rappel, I sought a balance between reverting previous nerfs and retaining the spirit of newer buffs that reward making good decisions without simply rewarding safe play. First off, previous range nerfs to Rappel made it very difficult for Elise to reach certain jungle monsters over walls that other junglers can jump much more easily. So, I gave it a very slight buff there. Also, the same abilities that other junglers use as gap closers also allow them to escape, with fewer restrictions and more consistency than Rappel; I wanted to address this somehow, and looked to Lee Sin, who some would argue is Elise's AD-based counterpart. My solution was to allow Elise to use Rappel three ways. Her first option is to Rappel directly to an enemy, at which point she slows them briefly and is rewarded with a reduced cooldown on the ability if she can quickly kill that target, provided it is a champion. Alternatively, she can Rappel directly to an ally or ward, although the cooldown is increased, preventing her from using it again too quickly. Lastly, if she casts it on the ground, she has a bit more time to decide what to do, without the reward of having directly targeted an enemy, albeit with the penalty of an increased cooldown if she jumps to an ally or ward. If she doesn't target anything, she falls back down to her original location, and the cooldown is unmodified. This way, she can use Rappel to play safely, but is not rewarded for doing so. Conversely, offensive use of Rappel is rewarded if and only if it was a good decision to do so in the first place -- if she gets the kill, she can use it again to chase another target sooner or escape to safely! If she doesn't, maybe she really shouldn't have gone ham in the first place!

Now, let's talk Skittering Frenzy and Spiderlings. I hate the 5.13 change to her sustain! Marrying Elise's self-heal to her own basic attacks in Spider Form takes away all the subtlety of juggling aggro with her Spiderlings, as well as some of the benefit of having them at all when she is CC'd! I much preferred when she received healing from both her own and her Spiderling's attacks during Skittering Frenzy. If she needs more sustain, I propose that her Spiderlings always passively provide some small amount of healing per attack, and that this value be increased and apply to her own basic attacks during Skittering Frenzy. This would ensure that you almost always have some incentive to keep her Spiderlings alive in fights (for instance, when you solo Dragon), until the point where you mitigate more damage by letting them tank for you than heal you. To be sure, this would be an overall buff, but a small one that still requires and rewards conscious positioning while jungling.

Finally, the last buff: a reduction in the cooldown of her ult, from 4 seconds to 3 seconds. This would bring Elise in line with Nidalee in this regard, and by allowing good players to switch between forms more quickly, it promotes awesome playmaking! As a jungler, I want nothing more than to make awesome plays when I show myself in lane, and spamming R while waiting to switch forms so I can do the awesome thing I want to do is super frustrating. A slight reduction in the cooldown of her ult would help Elise to feel predatory the way Nidalee feels predatory, especially late game, when she has a little bit of CDR through items, and when tables can turn in a split second during teamfights or skirmishes. Since one of our goals is to help Elise scale better into the late game, this kind of buff is perfect!

EDIT: One more buff I forgot to mention here is one that eventually, conditionally brings her Movement Speed in Human Form up to par with her Movement Speed in Spider Form. By giving her +5 Movement Speed for each Spiderling she has readied (I changed the terminology for this in my version, to make it sound cooler: instead, she "gains charges of Arachnomancy") in Human Form, as the game progresses, the need to switch forms just for the sake of moving faster is reduced. However, should she expend all her Spiderlings in Spider Form and need to get out of combat, switching into Human Form will still render her slower than if she were to remain in Spider Form. This buff gives her passive value in Human Form, and causes you to consider her passive as it affects both forms.

So... there you have it. That's basically everything I want to say about this Elise rework that I have to show you. Thank you, seriously, if you read all that, especially if you are willing to provide feedback or support in terms of maybe helping Riot to see this. Without further adieu, here she is:


ELISE, THE SPIDER QUEEN

Health: 529.4 (+80) Health Regen: 5.705 (+0.6) Mana: 324 (+50) Mana Regen: 6 (+0.8) Attack Range: 550 Attack Damage: 50.54 (+3) Attack Speed: 0.625 (+1.75%) Armor: 22.128 (+3.35) Magic Resist: 30 (+0) Movement Speed: 330


"SPIDER QUEEN"

HUMAN FORM: Each time Elise hits an enemy with one of her spells, she gains one charge of Arachnomancy, up to a maximum based on her ranks in "SPIDER FORM"/"HUMAN FORM". Elise gains +5 movement speed per charge. Elise always spawns in Human Form, with the max number of charges.

SPIDER FORM: Elise is considered a melee champion (125 basic attack range). She gains +25 Movement Speed and her basic attacks deal [[10/20/30/40] + (30% AP)] bonus magic damage.


Q: "NEUROTOXIN"/"VENOMOUS BITE"

HUMAN FORM: "NEUROTOXIN" Range: 625 | Cost: 80/85/90/95/100 Mana | Cooldown: 6 seconds

Active: Elise casts deadly poison at a target enemy, dealing [[40/75/110/145/180] + [(8 + (3% AP))% of target's current health]] magic damage. Damage is capped [75/100/125/150/175] against monsters.

SPIDER FORM: "VENOMOUS BITE" Range: 475 | Cost: -- | Cooldown: 6

Active: Elise lunges with a poisonous bite at a target enemy, dealing [[60/100/140/180/220] + [(8 + (3% AP))% of target's missing health]] magic damage. Damage is capped [75/100/125/150/175] against monsters.


W: "VOLATILE SPIDERLING"/"SKITTERING FRENZY"

HUMAN FORM: "VOLATILE SPIDERLING" Range: 950 | Cost: 60/70/80/90/100 | Cooldown: 12

Active: Elise summons a venom-gorged spiderling that moves toward a target location. The spiderling explodes on contact with any enemy or neutral monster, or after three seconds, dealing [[75/125/175/225/275] + (80% AP)] magic damage to nearby enemies and monsters.

If the spiderling does not hit an enemy before reaching its target location, it will target and chase another nearby enemy, prioritizing champions, with increased movement speed. It will not target neutral monsters.

SPIDER FORM: "SKITTERING FRENZY" Range: -- | Cost: -- | Cooldown: 12

Passive: Elise's Spiderlings gain [5%/10%/15%/20%/25%] bonus Attack Speed and heal her for [1 + (1% AP)] Health per attack.

Active: Both Elise and her Spiderlings gain [60%/80%/100%/120%/140%] bonus Attack Speed for 3 seconds, and heal Elise for [4 + (4% AP)] Health per attack.


E: "CAUSTIC COCOON"/"RAPPEL"

HUMAN FORM: "CAUSTIC COCOON" Range: 1075 | Cost: 50 | Cooldown: 14/13/12/11/10 | Missile Speed: 1600

Active: Elise fires a web in a straight line that stuns and reveals the first enemy hit for [1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2] seconds; that unit's Armor and Magic Resist are reduced by [2/4/6/8/10] for that time.

SPIDER FORM: "RAPPEL" Range: 775 | Cost: -- | Cooldown: 20/18/16/14/12

Active - Enemy Cast: Elise and her Spiderlings ascend into the air, becoming untargetable, and then descend upon the enemy target, reducing its Movement Speed by 25% for 1 second. If her target is an enemy champ, and Elise kills her target within 3 seconds, while still in Spider Form, the cooldown on this ability is reduced by 35%.

Active - Ally Cast: Elise and her Spiderlings ascend into the air, becoming untargetable, and then descend upon the ally target. The cooldown on this ability is increased by 50%.

Active - Ground Cast: Elise and her Spiderlings ascend into the air for up to 2.5 seconds, becoming untargetable and revealing nearby unstealthed enemies. During that time, Elise can either target an enemy or ally and descend upon that target, or return to her original location. If she descends upon an ally, the cooldown of this ability is temporarily increased by 50%; otherwise, it is unaffected.


R: "SPIDER FORM"/"HUMAN FORM" Range: -- | Cost: -- | Cooldown: 3

TOGGLE: Elise switches between Human Form and Spider Form. Upon switching into Spider Form, Elise summons a pet Spiderling to fight alongside her for each charge of Arachnomancy she had in Human Form. Upon switching into Human Form, she gains one charge of Arachnomancy for each Spiderling still alive when she switched. Elise begins each game with one rank in this ability, and can increase it at champion levels 6, 11, and 16. Her max charges of Arachnomancy is always equal to [1 + plus her rank in this ability].


SPIDERLINGS:

Attack Range: 100 Magic Damage: [10/20/30/40 + (10% AP)] Attack Speed: 0.665 Movement Speed: 370 Health: 85 - 390 Armor: 30/50/70/90 Magic Resist: 50/70/90/110 AoE Mitigation: 20%/25%/30%/35%

10 Comments

Mr Sir Lebowski2 votes

I would really like to see her spiderlings buffed. Sure it doesn't increase her skill cap much but they are "fun" to me and feeling like they are doing something more useful would be nice. I really don't understand why they deal physical dmg, just seems dumb.

Hard4Hamsters2 votes

I like these changes quite a bit. I think the Armor/Mr shred on the Caustic Cocoon could stand to be a percentage rather than a low flat reduction. This could be balanced a little more by increasing the CD on human E or reducing the Stun duration, but that's just my opinion.

Then again, that might be overpowered (having MR shred at all on a champion that benefits so heavily from flat pen), but I do think that it's odd that her only form of CC has no damage or extra utility tied to it.

The "buff" to her sustain was gutted right before the changes hit live. Her early game is easier and probably better in terms of hp sustain, but it really hurt her overall. If it hit live with it's original values, I think it would have been a really good buff, but it doesn't really do anything for her at the moment. It was going to heal for half of her spiderform damage so it would be 5/10/15/20 + (.15AP). And that would have been glorious, but it hit live at 4/6/8/10 + (.10AP) which is not really as good as her old spiderling hp return 4 + (.04AP) per spider. Which at lvl 16 when you had 5 spiders, was 20 + .2AP if each spiderling attacks during the W. So really it just looks like a straight up nerf. I guess it's a more consistent heal, but you really only need the tankiness it provides when going all in and the W active would be used in that situation anyway and as you stated, they can heal you while you are CC'd.

I would say that the Spider E changes you suggest are bold, but it seems a little more complicated than it needs to be; it would be difficult to fit all of that into a tooltip. I like the current live changes in place personally, as it gives the E much more incentive to be aggressive with it.

Anyway. We'll see what happens when the AP itemization gets updated. Maybe it will be of benefit to Elise, but right now, it actually looks like Elise is worse off because they preemptively nerfed her in her on hit heal (and I'm hearing complaints about her spider E being buggy).

Celeste Benal1 votes

I'm still mystified why she can only rappel onto enemies. Why can't she just Rappel up and come down where she wants? Makes no sense.

As for her most recent changes, I'm finder her to be at least effective as a ganker. Played blind pick last night with her and went 0/0/9. Ganked every lane multiple times and got all 3 lanes fed. Garnered us an ff@20.

Also, I think her post-E bonus is bugged. After rapelling onto an enemy, Spiderlings just sit there and look stupid for about 3-4 seconds.

HolowHall of Hal1 votes

I wonder, if we multiplied the healing she received by attacking enemy champions, would that be a good incentive for her to go deep in a fight? The problem is that only tank Elise would really benefit from that, mage Elise would just get insta gibbed

A Miss Fortune1 votes

I think it's obvious Elise needs a buff, but she also isn't as bad as people say she is.

Auturgist1 votes

{quoted}

I think it's obvious Elise needs a buff, but she also isn't as bad as people say she is.

I agree, but she's relatively bad enough to warrant some attention. When she literally has a 0% pick, ban, or win rate in Challenger solo queue, something needs to be done. I dunno if you read my post, or if you just skipped to the bottom to comment that she "isn't as bad as people say she is", but I didn't suggest anything that amounts to straight increase in damage output or scaling. Every change I propose is justified in terms of the flavor and play style of the champ as I see her, and is focused on rewarding intelligent decision-making and adept play-making. To me, Elise is a champion meant to have a high skill cap, who rewards players who have mastered her. I don't want to see her dumbed down so that anyone can play her well after just a few games -- I want her to remain a challenging champion to play and master, but I want the rewards for doing so to be better.

3TWarrior1 votes

the spider queen will be nigh unstoppable(well, sorta considering there are others) if sated devourer comes to live

60% of AP (from doubled use on her whatever ability) (multiplied by 3) + 15 flat magic damage(nashor's) (multiplied by 3) + 15% AP (nashors) (multiplied by 3) + 5% ap (masteries)(multiplied by 3), + 60 magic damage(jungle item)(multiplied by 3) + 100% AP from 5 spiders + 30 magic damage(spider form)(multiplied by 3)

on a base of 500 ap, this comes to 2015 (omg...is this a joke rito...) magic damage on just her auto attacks alone with the spiders

throw in a spider and a Q and it's a guaranteed kill on a high priority target and she can duel even a tank and come out victorious

Auturgist1 votes

I don't know that I've had any issues with her spiderlings after Rappel, but if so, obviously Riot needs to fix that.

Auturgist1 votes

The more I think about Rappel, the more I feel that Elise really should be able to Rappel to a target location, with a penalty being applied to the cooldown or perhaps even her own Movement Speed if she doesn't land on an enemy or ally. There's really no good LOGICAL reason she should have to come back down in the same spot, but consider: a spider jumps on prey. This is a FLAVORFUL reason for why she should use the ability to engage, not escape. If she uses it to escape, presumably she's still hungry... so maybe a Movement Speed debuff should be applied, allowing enemies to catch her anyway, unless of course, she used it intelligently to put a big-ass wall between them.

Rosemarie1 votes

BTW I had not read your rework, but it seems nice! :D

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