Can we talk about nerfing Riven please?

GorillazNtheMyst··15 votes·1,054 views

Why has this champion only been nerfed like, once all year? when all she does is snowball and stomp stuff. What are her early weaknesses exactly? She has free CC, burst, and mobility from level 3 on, but as a kind of hyper carry doesn't that seem unfair? At what point in the game is she vulnerable? Lvl 1-2? The only nerfs I can recall Riven getting in recent history are the MS nerf and the projectile speed of her ult, which didn't really do much of anything since people usually just use it as an execute in close range. Let's not forget she also gets a free shield. For free - she doesn't even rely on mana. Basically AD Katarina but with infinite dashes, CC, and a shield, but tell me again how she's "balanced?"

38 Comments

The Sword Saint7 votes

Every single aspect of riven's kit is interact able. None of her damaging skills are targeted, they can all miss or be dodged or baited out. She's not pantheon with a point and click ranged spear for harass on low cd and a point and click stun and one non point and click skill that's only used when they're stunned anyways.

Anyone who fights riven can outplay her by the nature of her kit. In exchange, she has tools to survive bad lanes or falling behind such as her shield and waveclear to farm under turret, and a close range stun to deter dives.

You know what her kit does, you know what her skills are and you should have an idea of what kind of combos she wants to use.

At the very least you can count and know that her third q is the hopping knockup one. It is telegraphed by the 2 qs preceding it, and has a longer animation. Any cc or knockback on her during this animation will fizzle her q leaving her not only without it's damage and the empowered auto she would have hit you with during the knockup, but giving you a chance to get free damage on her that's guaranteed to not be shielded.

You know that her shield has a decent cooldown early game and only lasts for a second so if your ranged harass has a shorter than ~10 second cooldown you know that if you use it on her and she shields it then you can use it on her again on cooldown for either free damage, to force her to try and trade with you when she has no shield up, or to zone her from the minion wave until she has her shield back.

You know that she probably wants to go on you, so position yourself where you know she'll jump on you right when the jungler comes. Her mobility doubles as her damage, so she'll be boned.

If you dance around on the outside edge of her range you can bait her into going in on you and then back off. She'll have wasted one or two spells just to close the gap and will have to get zoned from the wave now because she's worthless without cooldowns.

In a fight, you know that she wants to windslash you at low hp, so you can save something like a fizz e or diana ult or something to dodge it when you feel like its probably going to come at you, and avoid a lot of her damage that way.

She already has counterplay woven into her kit. She's not a ball of stats. Therefor (amoung other reasons) she won't be getting a rework - or at least if she ever does it will be completely different from darius/garen/skarner/mord and for different reasons entirely. Her kit does not work even a little bit without animation canceling, and her numbers have been tuned around the existence of it. It provides a large amount of mastery and depth to her and is a large part of her theme.

For those unaware, Riven's designers sat down and modeled her gameplay after the idea of , "what would a fighting game character look like in leageu?". Specifically, Marth as seen in super smash brothers was used as inspiration for her q, but on a whole the animation canceling, combo depth, 'special move' spam without a resource, footsie game, ministuns that exist to prolong a combo, etc. that riven has are all modeled on fighting game concepts. Riven is a beautiful and successful translation of what it means to be a fighting game character in league. She has a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling, clear strengths and weaknesses, is satisfying to play at a high level, and her character design itself is well done enough to draw in players to learn her.

I think we need more champs like riven. her kit filled with melee skillshots showed us what an interactive and healthy fighter should be like instead of a ball of stats, way before the age of yasuo and new fiora.

Penns1 votes

Her Q is semi- targeted, you gotta be retarded to miss her W (unless someone flashes out of it) and her ult is only really dodgable with a flash behind her too.

"Anyone who fights riven can outplay her" Ka... Kappa? :o

You know what her kit does, you know what her skills are and you should have an idea of what kind of combos she wants to use.

This applies to every champ basically.

Any cc or knockback on her during this animation will fizzle her q leaving her not only without it's damage and the empowered auto

Her Q lasts a while tho, she can still bait out your CC, not exactly "telegraphed". Xerath Q shows you where its going to land right now, thats telegraphed.

You know that she probably wants to go on you, so position yourself where you know she'll jump on you right when the jungler comes. Her mobility doubles as her damage, so she'll be boned.

2v1ing a champ isnt exactly "counterplay" either, still a nice tip tho I guess.

What I hate about Riven is how she has those aoe "mini stuns" you mentioned along with her strong dmg and mobility. Theyre like screaming "I just beat you up, want to counterattack? Take that knock up + aa. Now take that stun and dont even think about counterattacking while I run away" in your face. While she used everything to trade you, you couldnt even get 1 auto off because her "mini stuns" always cancel them. And you cant play against that with every champ. A good Riven has basically no counters.

Faded Lich1 votes

Don't even bother. I got a proper response to her once to, to which they simply said "lolnope" Saint is a riven main. Saint is doing what all Riven mains do: Defend there broken, easy win champ. Nothing more, nothing less.

ninjaIRL 1 votes

You can't actually kill her though. Sure you can win the trade but she will always survive because of her 4 dashes. The moment she engages and it looks like a bad engage she can opt out to just run away. She can keep testing the waters with her kit, she doesn't need to commit she doesn't get stuck easily in trades, she can get out of combat range quicker than most.

The Sword Saint1 votes

The thing is that the less she commits, the less damage she can to and the more she loses a trade. She may be able to avoid dying by being non committal, but it would cause her to slowly lose the lane if she never went and risked anything.

ninjaIRL 1 votes

That makes no sense.

She can keep testing the waters and if the trade looks favourable she will fully commit and get the kill. Otherwise if the trade looks like it's going to fail she's going to run away it's as simple as that. A decent Riven really shouldn't be at risk at dying because of the amount of escape potential she has in her kit. It's even safer considering her Q cooldown starts at the first cast, she can hold on to it a little bit more to extend her pressure in trades.

The Sword Saint1 votes

She's like tristana in that if she commit too heavily to a trade or a fight (in tristana's case by using her gapcloser to do damage and slow) and she miscalculates, messes up, or gets ganked then shes ruined. She can either trade heavily and unsafely or lightly and safely, but not both. And considering that she has low sustain and durability compared to other top laners, trading lightly a dozen times is a dangerous prospect.

Renekton for example will just heal everything up and riven will run out of pots and hp if she tries to just make light and safe trades, she has to make a heavy unsafe trade or two and make it work in her favor before going all in fast before renekton has a chance to heal up. The same is true for any tankier fighter, potions go a longer way on champions who have higher resistances either innately or through item selection. She still gets hurt but base damages since she herself is not someone who has a lot of resists, and only a short duration shield to protect herself.

ninjaIRL 1 votes

Tristana has one of the biggest ranges in the game. Harassing is really easy to do with her. She's typically already safe she doesn't need to jump in to win trades. Riven needs to get in to deal damage, however, what I'm saying is, if the Riven skirmishes and like a jungler pops out of nowhere the moment she starts a trade she can run away relatively easily with proper ability management. She can keep doing that until she gets a favourable trade where she's clearly not going to get killed.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VyMt6I60,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-09-25T22:44:04.375+0000)

Every single aspect of riven's kit is interact able. None of her damaging skills are targeted, they can all miss or be dodged or baited out. She's not pantheon with a point and click ranged spear for harass on low cd and a point and click stun and one non point and click skill that's only used when they're stunned anyways.

That's right. Riven is not an assassin. She is a fighter. Her kit is supposed to have more sustained damage and more counterplay. Comparing her to an assassin is...not a valid argument?

Anyone who fights riven can outplay her by the nature of her kit. In exchange, she has tools to survive bad lanes or falling behind such as her shield and waveclear to farm under turret, and a close range stun to deter dives.

If by outplay you mean you can dodge her abilities? Yes. But not every champion can harass her while her shield is down.

You know what her kit does, you know what her skills are and you should have an idea of what kind of combos she wants to use.

Yes. And those skills and combos frustrate players.

At the very least you can count and know that her third q is the hopping knockup one. It is telegraphed by the 2 qs preceding it, and has a longer animation. Any cc or knockback on her during this animation will fizzle her q leaving her not only without it's damage and the empowered auto she would have hit you with during the knockup, but giving you a chance to get free damage on her that's guaranteed to not be shielded.

Any cc or knockback. That refers to basically Maokai's Q, Garen's Q, Darius's E, Fiora's W...But what about Olaf, Galio, Malphite, Shyvana, and other melee champions with no ranged harass who don't get to play top lane very often simply because lane bullies like Riven exist? The very threat of Riven has knocked so many tanks and low range bruisers out of the top lane entirely.

You know that her shield has a decent cooldown early game and only lasts for a second so if your ranged harass has a shorter than ~10 second cooldown you know that if you use it on her and she shields it then you can use it on her again on cooldown for either free damage, to force her to try and trade with you when she has no shield up, or to zone her from the minion wave until she has her shield back.

Here's a list of top laners with 0 ranged harass: Darius Fiora Fizz Garen Hecarim Irelia Jax MasterYi Nautilus Poppy Rammus Singed Trundle Tryndamere Udyr Vi Volibear MonkeyKing XinZhao

You know that she probably wants to go on you, so position yourself where you know she'll jump on you right when the jungler comes. Her mobility doubles as her damage, so she'll be boned.

That works if you have a ganking jungler. And if you have a control jungler or a farming jungler? Someone who isn't going to assist the lanes? You could argue that Riven's job as an early game champion is to punish these champions, but she does it too effectively currently.

If you dance around on the outside edge of her range you can bait her into going in on you and then back off. She'll have wasted one or two spells just to close the gap and will have to get zoned from the wave now because she's worthless without cooldowns.

Unless you are playing a champion who cannot harass effectively, cannot trade efficiently, because you are playing a tank or someone who brings UTILITY and CC to a team, traits that are important and absent from the damaging carry you are guaranteed to have bot lane.

In a fight, you know that she wants to windslash you at low hp, so you can save something like a fizz e or diana ult or something to dodge it when you feel like its probably going to come at you, and avoid a lot of her damage that way.

Yes! Yes! Don't worry guys, she may have an execute, but as long as you're playing League of Mobility it doesn't matter! And if you're not? Well...sucks to be you then.

She already has counterplay woven into her kit. She's not a ball of stats. Therefor (amoung other reasons) she won't be getting a rework - or at least if she ever does it will be completely different from darius/garen/skarner/mord and for different reasons entirely.

All of her abilities can be dodged. That's a perfect reason to make her stronger than everyone else in the early game. Ezreal

Her kit does not work even a little bit without animation canceling, and her numbers have been tuned around the existence of it. It provides a large amount of mastery and depth to her and is a large part of her theme.

And because she's difficult to play, she's allowed to be stronger than other champions that are easier. We must reward mechanical skill with raw power.

For those unaware, Riven's designers sat down and modeled her gameplay after the idea of , "what would a fighting game character look like in leageu?". Specifically, Marth as seen in super smash brothers was used as inspiration for her q, but on a whole the animation canceling, combo depth, 'special move' spam without a resource, footsie game, ministuns that exist to prolong a combo, etc. that riven has are all modeled on fighting game concepts. Riven is a beautiful and successful translation of what it means to be a fighting game character in league. She has a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling, clear strengths and weaknesses, is satisfying to play at a high level, and her character design itself is well done enough to draw in players to learn her.

And then there's the fact that she just has flat out MORE damage potential. Also, fighting game characters have something called a resource bar. Heat, energy, special power, whatever you want to call it. Something you build up as you attack that allows you to use your special finisher. That would seem like it would lead to a Fury-based champion in League, which Riven is not. Not really a strong argument for you here.

I think we need more champs like riven. her kit filled with melee skillshots showed us what an interactive and healthy fighter should be like instead of a ball of stats, way before the age of yasuo and new fiora.

I think we need more champions like Riven too, but I also think Riven herself needs to be nerfed.

The Sword Saint1 votes

I'm not interested in the state of rivens numerical balance, nor do I care if they buff or nerf her. I'm only interested in her design, and the fact that it's a good one. If riot looks at her performance in games relative to other champions and decides to adjust her numbers or something that's fine by me, it's not important in the long run.

The problem is that these types of threads are NEVER a breakdown or analysis of anything numerical - they're just whining about not liking riven existing in general and would be happy to see her nerfed to the point of complete non viability.

I could argue with many of the individual snippets you took out but there's nothing to gain by doing so, my real point boils down to: balance her numbers if her numbers are unbalanced, but just shut up already everyone who hates her out of principle.

Magic Mo4 votes

Why do I keep seeing these downright misinformed threads about Riven? She's not broken by any stretch of the imagination right now. Play Irelia, Garen, Darius, Gnar, etc. Shit, play Caitlyn. I had a Cait go 11/0 by the time the game ended against a Riven.

Fatalitý1 votes

Actually Riven is one of the new Darius's counters

ninjaIRL 1 votes

Riven gets destroyed by Darius m8. She can't harass because Darius will just pull her back in. She can't stay for long because of her shit base health regen (Darius's passive does 30% of his damage) and if she manages to get Darius low it's easy to Darius to proc a heal every second trade.

NemeBro3 votes

{quoted}

Why has this champion only been nerfed like, once all year? when all she does is snowball and stomp stuff. What are her early weaknesses exactly? She has free CC, burst, and mobility from level 3 on, but as a kind of hyper carry doesn't that seem unfair? At what point in the game is she vulnerable? Lvl 1-2? The only nerfs I can recall Riven getting in recent history are the MS nerf and the projectile speed of her ult, which didn't really do much of anything since people usually just use it as an execute in close range. Let's not forget she also gets a free shield. For free - she doesn't even rely on mana. Basically AD Katarina but with infinite dashes, CC, and a shield, but tell me again how she's "balanced?"

She's not a hypercarry, She's an early to mid game champion. Late game she isn't particularly valuable in team fights, nor is she capable of dueling people like Tryndamere, Jax, or Mister Yi.

Fatalitý1 votes

She does amazing in teamfights what are you talking about?

Yxion the Yordle3 votes

Play Garen. RIP Riven.

Baseball3b3 votes

Play anybody with tankiness or someone who outscales her. It's not that hard. Honestly, she's actually fairly weak in the current meta right now

SpeedWisp2 votes

She is OP but if you look at some other champions like garen irealia darius gnar riven is shit.In team fight if she's stunned she's dead same for katarina but if garen is stunned 100 times he can keep going or irelia she can just jump with her Q you won't be able to hit her with Abillitys....

IAMS4T4N1 votes

after playing riven for about 2 games, she does have some clear weaknesses such as struggling against tanks, having no sustain, all that bullshit but honestly, her ultimate cooldown is way too low late game for the amount of strength it has. 30 second cooldown max cdr (which is what most rivens build) is just insane

Penns1 votes

Why has Irelia only been nerfed like... once every 3 years yet shes a nerf meme. kek

Baby Ghoul1 votes

{quoted}

Why has Irelia only been nerfed like... once every 3 years yet shes a nerf meme. kek

It's because she has that nerf meme. Actually in Irelia's case she's been the queen of the solo queue climbing meta this whole season...

SleepyLionCub1 votes

She gets about 2 nerfs a year. dont worry, riot will release a new AD item, that very slightly helps her in a very Niche way, and then they will nerf her before she crawls out of her grave again.

TYGRYS BENGOWSKI1 votes

riven? at least u can see her, compare it to rengar........ [!] above ur head 1 sec after death recap. Toxic champ, no counterplay if he can 1shot u with stealth, but better delete talons silence ;d

Pupel1 votes

{quoted}

riven? at least u can see her, compare it to rengar........ [!] above ur head 1 sec after death recap. Toxic champ, no counterplay if he can 1shot u with stealth, but better delete talons silence ;d

isn't talon the epitome of killing you from stealth?

TYGRYS BENGOWSKI1 votes

are u using R as 1st skill of combo? wasting 1st part of dmg from his ulti? gz

Pupel1 votes

i just play Nasus on Riven and outscale that bitch at 12 min in...which then she usually teleports bot and kills my entire team...but i the tele in and kill hers XD

Havenscythe1 votes

You can't "nerf" Riven, change the numbers all you want her kit will always be good.

bad manner kid1 votes

I just think it's funny that Riot totally guts champions based on community feedback but doesn't do anything to other lane bullies.

"NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST" Akali Leblanc Talon Renekton Ziggs Zilean

"FUN TO PLAY AGAINST" Malzahar Yorick Riven Katarina Ekko Kalista

"REWORKED, SO FRUSTRATING TO PLAY AGAINST THEY ALWAYS GET BANNED" Fiora Garen Darius

Faded Lich1 votes

How is Malzahar fun to play with? Everything he does is point, click, AFK. No fun interactions there. At least with Ziggs you can dodge and counter attack, even hope to engage.

Aside from those two, not bad.

ninjaIRL 1 votes

Malz's Q is a delayed "skillshot", W does piss damage until late game or mid game if you're maxing it. The only thing point and click on his kit is the E and the R.

Faded Lich1 votes

So you mean, the main parts of his kit? E's wave, waits at tower as he gets gold. Gets R, is now completely untouchable until you get either a gank and/or QSS. Bitch please, malz is the poster child of boring ass design and unfun gameplay. He is a giant math equation. He has 100% set scenerios with 100% set results that repeat themselves 100% of the time every, single, game and no amount of interaction or skill can change or influence it.

ninjaIRL 1 votes

E is a main part of his kit. Every ability he has is a main part of his kit. His main impact in skirmishes, not full blown out fights, is his ability to zone with Q and W, that has a pretty big impact. His R has easy counters dude, get someone with hard CC or silence and he just can't. This is why a non-fed nor non-underfed Malzahar can't get any kills in a 1v2. The moment a second person comes in with even a tiny knock-up/interupt he loses kill potential. He stuns himself while he stuns someone else. That's not a bad trade.

It's satisfying to knock a Malzahar whilst he's ulting because you know it's going to piss him off. You can also pick Morgana and watch him be unable to commit to any fight.

I don't even understand what you mean by no amount of interaction or skill can change or influence it. What do you mean by:

100% set scenarios* with 100% set results that repeat themselves 100% of the time..." Malzahar's kit can be influenced as much as the next average champion.

Malzhar is actually needed as well with the amount of mobility that this game has.

Fatalitý1 votes

how is zilean not fun to play against and how is malzahar,yorick,ekko, and kalista fun to play against?

bad manner kid1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Im ChaIIenger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VyMt6I60,comment-id=000c0001,timestamp=2015-09-26T15:56:21.310+0000)

how is zilean not fun to play against and how is malzahar,yorick,ekko, and kalista fun to play against?

The quotes implied sarcasm based off Riot's changes to the champions. "Fun" champions do not get changed/nerfed, "unfun" were all nerfed due to complaints.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

I mean your reasoning is awful, but a great nerf would be that her ult either lasts the current 15 seconds OR once you use the active. That way you don't get to keep the increased stats after using it to execute someone.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

My god, all the rejecting responses about Riven being "not broken" make me define them as this:

http://i.memeful.com/memes/Rjrz76R/Joker-Mind-Loss.jpg

Truly Prideful1 votes

She doesn't get nerfed because being annoying doesn't mean she's overpowered at all. If she doesn't manage to get ahead, she isn't a factor in the game at all. She only snowballs, that's it.

Why does everyone say "free" for shit? It's an ability in her kit, it costs her a slot. By that logic Yasuo has a free windwall that nullifies a large number of abilities. Except it isn't free, it costs the cooldown and he's vulnerable when it's on cooldown. Riven's shield lasts a whopping 1.5 seconds. If you feel the need to throw your abilities at the shield rather than waiting 1.5 seconds, that's on you. Let her shield fall off then trade with her. There are plenty of picks top that can fight her and do better than her in teamfights.

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