Are these Azir nerfs for real?

GorillazNtheMyst··13 votes·6,158 views

Ok guys, I'm sorry, but here's the reality.

A.) Many of us paid good money for a champion that was hyped and thrown in our faces for a month straight, only to not actually be able to play him for DAYS, and still not be able to really use him well for MONTHS. Azir was bugged from release until basically end of December, and Riot even admits he still doesn't work in the patch notes for 5.3. How the heck, then, do you justify the heinous nerfs to a champ who literally is still broken. Maybe Riot should focus on actually FIXING HIM before they go about trying nerf him.

B.) Azir's entire kit is based on positioning and zoning. How is he supposed to fulfill this role if his W range is as nerfed as it is? I understand that they are trying to make his early game even worse than it already is, but all they're doing is turning him into another Yasuo - who, last I checked, every pro is saying is more or less unplayable now. Riot has said in the notes that this is to balance out his huge late game potential, but here's the reality with Azir: AZIR DOESN'T HIT THE LATE GAME OP POWER SPIKE IF HIS LANING IS GARBAGE. If you get behind with Azir, you're pretty screwed. And not only that, they also nerfed his mid-late game by destroying his Q damage. I'm not sure how any of this is really justifiable with a really tiny boost to his AD, which he doesn't even use. His last hits with autos are just as hard as they were pre-5.3, and this is a really poor consolation prize to those of us who have actually taken the time to practice and get good with arguably one of the hardest champs to play and understand in the roster right now.

C.) Azir is already incredibly easy to deal with early game. Either get yourself a jungler who knows how to gank early and bam, (All you have to do is wait for him to be oom now and then gank him. HE CAN'T DO ANYTHING. Period.) or just out sustain him. He is dreadfully mana hungry until he builds his first regen item (and even then he's still really mana hungry), so getting an Azir to go oom before lvl 6 is incredibly easy.

Now his early laning phase is even harder than it already was because he can't keep strong early burst (like Zed, Fizz, or Kat) away from him. He has to get way too close in order to get a soldier near anything at lvl 1, and the range nerf is still pretty bogus even with Q available. It makes his already difficult to land Q even harder to land. IT'S A DAMN SPEAR, PEOPLE. A SPEAR. SPEARS ARE LONG. THEY HAVE RANGE. WHAT IS CONFUSING ABOUT THIS? Why do I Q people and see the spear literally go either through them and do no dmg, or go around them. If you're going to nerf his W range, at least open up the hit box of his Q a little bit to compensate. Or nerf his Q dmg and don't nerf his W range. I really don't think you can have both and have him still be viable. The nerf to the W range also ensures that strong counter picks (like Syndra, Xerath, and Ziggs) are basically untouchable. WIth the range nerf the chances of your being able to do ANYTHING to these champs is incredibly low. Syndra, I find, is particularly dangerous, though I don't really know what she's like now with her new E. I just know that usually her stun hits you hands down and then you die, pretty instantly, and there's nothing you can really do to deal with it. (I have literally E'd away from her stun and it still has hit me before, which is ridiculous in my opinion.)

Sorry for the rant, but I think I speak for a lot of people who have really loved this champion and have suffered through Riot's Mickey Mouse job of a release, and have been patient as they wait for his bread and butter W attack to ACTUALLY WORK CONSISTENTLY (or his ult, or his q, or his e, basically his entire kit, let's be real), when I say that I'm incredibly disappointed, frustrated, and downright angry that this nerf has gone down the way it has. You have basically completely run him into the ground, and if I didn't want my money back before, I certainly do now.

22 Comments

IndigoDrill3 votes

Yeah I'm more than a little irked.

Kotex3 votes

Me too... Azir was my main. Im just as vexxed if not more.

Hawnda3 votes

You can't justify his overpowered kit by saying: lol wait for him to go OOM or lol wait for a jungler to come You could say that about any mana-dependent champion. And clearly you haven't played him properly because Azir is a major lane bully who plays at extreme safety. Ain't nobody handles donger like he does.

GorillazNtheMyst1 votes

I actually do play him pretty safely, thanks. I don't disagree that he should be nerfed a bit, but I think the nerf was too oppressive. That's all, man.

Mirage Seraph2 votes

Meh. Since Azir was released he basically became my pseudo-mid main. All in all, while the nerfs are pretty heavy, I think anybody who puts the time to learn Azir will be able to still do well with the nerfs. Proper positioning of his soldiers will still allow almost as much damage as pre 5.3 and the nerf to the Q damage isn't TOO bad. Especially since Q's main function is to re-position anyways.

Plus, Azir really isn't mana hungry. I don't even build mana on the guy and I can still typically stay in lane for awhile. Granted I take Teleport on him so that I can take a Turret and B, teleport back and hold it.

GorillazNtheMyst4 votes

The problem is that the nerf to W's range makes him more reliant on his Q for poke, which means you'll be using mana a lot more now. I cuss every time I miss a Q early game because it can be a devastating mistake as it's very expensive to cast in the early game. I honestly think the Q nerf isn't the worst part of the overall changes. With the right items, obviously Q will still be really deadly late game. My biggest issue is the W nerf. The range is way too small now.

As far as mana is concerned, bringing TP is definitely helpful, but it gives you zero kill pressure. Personally, I have tried every summoner spell available except for Revive, Clairvoyance, and Smite (for fairly obvious reasons), and have concluded that for my playstyle Ignite is the way to go.

Mirage Seraph1 votes

Well, I'll have to play a game or two with him once I'm done patching to get a good feel for it but I'm fairly confident he's still strong. I rarely find myself actually missing a Q, majority of my poke simply comes from putting my soldiers down in his caster minions which alone zones him out quite hard, I really only Q when they're in front of my soldier. I feel like my play style more or less just got a love tap if anything. But I suppose that's just my play style, everyone likely plays him somewhat differently after all.

As for Ignite. My main issue with ignite on Azir is that it's only useful early game. If Teleport can keep me in lane longer and get me more CS, at the cost of a kill or two I'm comfortable with that trade off for late game objectives and team fight presence. Besides, because Azir has a terribad early game, I rarely find myself in a position to get kills, with or without ignite.

GorillazNtheMyst1 votes

You're certainly right about ignite, and that's why I bounced around for the longest time. Late game it can be really useless. But there were too many instances where I could've gotten kills and possibly snowballed into a safer mid-game and wasn't able to just because I didn't have ignite and Azir can't chase worth a ****.

Subject 52 votes

Wait, you mean that champ that is a lane bully and a late game monster with the highest DPS in the game extreme safety, self peel and no mana problems? Oh

GorillazNtheMyst4 votes

Yes, he's a lane bully, but an incredibly squishy one. If you get on top of him pre-6 there's very little he can do about it. He can E you (incredibly unreliable move), but then if he doesn't get you to go away after that you can basically kill him ez pz. And his "safe peel" is really great against something like a Vi, or that little spell everyone caries called FLASH... XD

And he certainly has mana problems in the early game, not entirely sure what you're talking about. After he builds a regen item he's ok, but before that it's tricky to manage your mana to harass effectively.

LordKentravyon2 votes

As an Azir main, and someone who devoted himself to learning the champ then using him to climb to gold, I've found him to be manegabke through thick in thin, the only time I stopped playing him was the last patch of Season 4 (I believe 5-6 days before it ended) when they completely broke his ult so it passed through champions without knock back or damage and potential left no barrier,

Now having a solid know how of the destruction he can cause I agree that some nerfs were needed but they were done over the top. A lot of the stuff people complain about are not him being OP but people not thinking. (Ok nid do you really rhink a post 6 pounce on me just outside tower range is a good idea?)

Anyways I disagree with the mana part on him, I find with double dorans for lane + a rRoA and your mana is incredibly easy to manage as long as your playing smart and not just spamming, but that's not really the point at hand. I often tell my junglers if they can spare blue early it will increase my DPS but I am not dependent on it in the least, and once I have my first couple items I refuse to take it (unless stealing oppositions) because I will have max CDR and my mana is fine.

Looking at the nerfs lets try and remember his goal is to be a hypercarry late game with a subpar laning phase.

His Q nerf was justified, it brings it;s early laning in check which riot wants. That's cool it is primarily a reposition tool and with his heavy DPS focus his damage should be coming from his soldiers AAs anyways. I could understand an argument that it is too harsh in later levels (current rank 5 is lower then old rank 4) but I'm not concerned about it.

His damage to turrets really needed a nerf as well, the amount of damage he could put on them was insane especially early. That being said I think riot might have been over the top but I haven't tested it yet. So I'm not certain. But looking at the numbers (. 90 + (15 x level) (0.7 ability power) ⇒ 50 + (10 x level) (0.4 ability power) I think they hurt it to much. It's significantly weaker both early and late and we need to keep in mind that a smart player can really punish Azir for using his soldiers on turrets. He is sacrificing his ability to fight back to do this so it should be rather rewarding, Furthermore I think having mages that can push turrets is a good thing, it brings some diversity and unique strengths and allows you to go "Ok adc your gonna farm the raptor camp again? Fine I guess I will just push myself . I really find that t's one of my favorite features in those that have such mechanisms worked into their kit. (Such as Ziggs passive, Why can't mrode Q do this?, VIk I understand with Litch bane it would be out of control unless they gave it a specific vs turret damage function)

Back on track I think the damage should be heavily nerfed early and slightly nerfed late. I believe riot was overboard in this. I'm no expert on numbers but I feel like the following algorithm is fairly reasonable.. 50(scales with level to 90 at 18) + (12 x level) (0.5ability power) it's weaker overall but scales to hyper levels still whilst not being blatantly OP. I must re-literate here, I have not yet tested the new levels just in theory they seem to harsh.

Now to the big thing. The W range nerf. This is absolutely disgusting, it damages the backbone of the kit, the synergy with Q, massively gates his damage output unless the enemy team is trying to just give your soldiers hugs.

Now I do understand riots intent. but I wish they either a) just went through with the Q and turret nerfs, and looked at how they left him before jumping the gun on this one. B) implemented a scaling range system. I have seen several suggestions where He starts lev 1 with 325 range and it scales up to the old 400, with either ranks in W, R, or just levels. I think the scaling solution would be rather healthy it hurts his laning dominance (that being said I beleive this is exaggerate and it has more to do with opponents underestimating / not adapting playstyles to vs him) but still preserves his ability to work as a hyper carry late game. Currently they are giving him the early game nerf while removing his late game carry potential which is a big no no.

All in all I'm fairly disappointed with how quickly riot hammered him given his stats (win rate/ picks) weren't even that high besides a sudden surge of bans in a 3 week period. Meanwhile you see other champions who remain in the positive light and considered OP for extended periods of time with barely even a finger lifted towards them. Also I have been monitoring threads about these nerfs non-stop since they showed up on PBE and have yet to see a single red response to any of them, despite the general consensus being that he needs nerfs, but not ones of that magnitude.

Sorry if i'm a little unclear in this. f I didn't make sense just let me know.

GorillazNtheMyst1 votes

No man, totally clear, and very well put. Thanks for the great response! I agree that the scaling idea on W seems like a fair idea, though I worry about how it'll still affect his ability to safely poke early game. Then maybe you'd have to re-think about how you put in your skill points, if Q is really mainly a repositioning tool now.

Zeladar1 votes

The scaling w was exactly what i was thinking. Just let the range scale like jinx. Ive missed so many kills because i needed 1 auto attack from my soldier. Im only Bronze 3 BTW but i wanted azir to carry me to gold.

Drukyul1 votes

The range nerf will solidify Azir even more into a burst mage instead of the sustained-damage mage he was advertized as.

GorillazNtheMyst1 votes

Yes, except the rest of his kit isn't a burst kit like a Syndra or a Lissandra. Nerfing W's range doesn't synergize well with the rest of his abilities and overall concept.

GorillazNtheMyst1 votes

Just want to add some thoughts now that I've played him a couple of times with the nerf. It's pretty bad, and I'm starting to think he's pretty useless now until they figure something out. Now people can literally walk right up to you pre-6 and bring you to half health because you have no zoning pressure. Your soldiers have no intimidating range - by the time you finally get the damn thing to cast and appear they've already walked away from its range, or they've just engaged you because you're closer to them than before to cast it in the first place - and you do no substantial damage. Ever, in fact. Between the limited range of W and the massive nerf to Q's damage, engaging at all with your ult now is more or less pointless. Now Azir's ult is basically only good for peel, which makes him far less of a "hyper carry" (I have no idea how Riot thinks he's a hyper carry by any stretch of the imagination now since he has no damage or purpose at any point of the game), and much more of a utility mage.

So does this mean that if the nerfs remain he's only good for top lane and support? Why have a midlane carry who can't do any burst, or any zoning, or put any pressure anywhere? You can't even make attempts at split pushing now because your W doesn't do as much to towers (also one of Azir's erstwhile late game bonuses that actually made him a hyper carry, now rendered basically just a small perk. Again, how they're saying they made his late game "more effective" is mind boggling). His ability to duel now is also completely shrekt with Q's nerf, so good luck with ganks and any and all forms of combat... basically.

Feeling really frustrated today, guys. Really ticked off that my favorite champ in the game is now more completely broken than ever, and in the bad way.

kcStranger1 votes

Upvoted. You could have also mentioned that Azir's win rate in ranked is now below 40% in all leagues, including Diamond. (It is slightly higher in higher leagues.) Now I understand that winrates aren't everything--especially on high-skillcap champions who may win at a rate lower than their true value due to people playing suboptimally--but such a win rate is heinous on any champ, in my opinion. (For God's sake, even Trundle wins 48% of the time.) Just having Azir as one of the five champions on your team drops your win probability by 10%. This is the definition of an overly aggressive nerf, made especially heinous how long it took them to fix all the bugs and how much time people have invested into getting good at playing him.

For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents about what they should have done: Don't nerf the W range (at most nerf it by like 25), and if you want to hurt his early laning then lower the base damage on his abilities and perhaps adjust the scaling a bit to compensate. (Kind of like what they did with Syndra's Q, which deals a lot less damage at rank 1 than it used to but deals the same as before once you have it fully leveled.)

DumpsterKing1 votes

Just played a game with him after nerf and this is just absurd. First of all the can be no such thing as poking, if you want to live just farm, 1 successful poke drains like quarter of your mana and it deals 0 damage, and it ruins your early game, you are forced to farm at your turret and you are so behind before late game you dont even make a difference....I am dissapoined in you riot, first fix the champ before overnerf him.

Spoo1 votes

Srry going to comment without reading your wall of text.

He needed the nerf. Your point C) is absolutely wrong, he's on anyone who knows how to play him we was near ungankable unless he failed an all in.

B) His point IS to be zoning, but not enough to the point where he can't be harassed by nearly anyone early mid or late game.

Overall, on anyone decent with the champion, he was by far way to good at all stages of the game. I mean passive attack speed with CRD with turrets was bogus as hell and you have to admit it. At least now, he lives his end game dream of zoning but his early game has more time to punish him and theres actually some counterplay involved.

GorillazNtheMyst1 votes

{quoted}

Srry going to comment without reading your wall of text.

He needed the nerf. Your point C) is absolutely wrong, he's on anyone who knows how to play him we was near ungankable unless he failed an all in.

B) His point IS to be zoning, but not enough to the point where he can't be harassed by nearly anyone early mid or late game.

Overall, on anyone decent with the champion, he was by far way to good at all stages of the game. I mean passive attack speed with CRD with turrets was bogus as hell and you have to admit it. At least now, he lives his end game dream of zoning but his early game has more time to punish him and theres actually some counterplay involved.

This post was from the 5.3 nerfs, by the way. Also, now with the nerfs I can't do anything useful with him. I get two-shotted by everything, even after using the wall to knock assassins back, and I do no damage with out second item deathcap, which is bullshit considering the change to W was supposed to "open up build paths."

Beoridas1 votes

i never played azir and i dont plan on ever playing him. but they should not flat out nerf him and rather switch his stuff around to make it clear and balanced. gg riot.

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