The Problem With Azir 5.3

GorillazNtheMyst··10 votes·2,533 views

Since the patch, Azir's win rate has steadily remained well below 50%. There are an awful lot of people who want to ignore this fact simply because the patch hasn't been out that long. But data is data, and the only thing that's changed that could be causing this mess is the absurd nerf Azir received.

Looking at the new Azir, we can see several problems that should have been immediately apparent to Riot's "balance" team. First of all, now Q does less damage at rank 5 than any other spell in your kit. W is now your main source of damage. I guess this is because Rito wants Q to be more of a repositioning move. Fine. But you can't then justify the huge mana cost and the crappy slow you might get if you even hit them. If Q is meant to be a utility move now, they need to give it something else - either a lower mana cost, or an increased slow per rank so that you can get more autos off with your soldiers and their new limited range (more on that later). That way putting points into Q actually does something for you going into mid game, and doesn't just give you smaller cooldown windows on moving your soldiers. Right now, that's all you're getting from your Q, because the damage is worthless even in late game.

Riot has said they wanted to "soften" Azir's power spikes, but all they did was castrate them. Now he doesn't have any power spikes. You hit lvl 6 and all you gain is an escape move through your ult, because at that point in the game you don't have nearly enough damage to engage anything without help from someone else on your team. Lvl 11 is a joke. At that point you have your Q maxed (pointless), and some points in your W. You still do very little damage. Lvl 16 isn't much better, and that's when Azir is supposed to hit that almighty "LATE GAME HYPERCARRY" that Rito has promised us. Nothing about Azir now represents a late game hypercarry. WIthout AP per level blues or something he has no scaling whatsoever, and is easily eliminated by just about anyone late game. God help you if your team has no understanding of how to protect you in team fights. Unfortunately, the nerfs assume that you will be building Deathcap as a core item, but let's face it, not every game are you going to be able to build this item. New Azir gets behind incredibly easily because one early kill on him (even more easy to get on him now) will set him back more or less to a point where he can't come back, and Azir has never been much of an early game killer. I have recently played games where I've gotten behind like this due basically to BS and other "oppressive" mid laners (who also scale better into late game, like, wtf, Rito, get your story straight. WHAT IS AZIR SUPPOSED TO BE NOW BESIDES GARBAGE???), and I have followed the standard procedure of playing safe and just focusing on farm only to find that it doesn't really matter. If you can't, for whatever reason, swing a Deathcap (an item you're traditionally only supposed to get if you're winning lane... Not very likely now post-nerf). Without this item you are basically useless to your team, and most of the time even with it you still can't put out the damage you need, or "Hypercarry" anything other than your ass back to the fountain because you just got your face kicked and all you could do was wall them away. Gotta love a midlaner who's got an ult that is literally only good for escape because the rest of his kit no longer supports or synergizes with it. (WHY DOES AHRI GET IT BOTH WAYS??? )

The other obvious issue is his range nerf, which seems to be everyone's big complaint - and for obvious reasons. You make a champion who's kit is entirely reliant on outranging and outzoning the opponent because you also make him one of the squishiest champs in the game, and then you nerf his range across basically his entire kit AND you gut his damage. But he has 2 more points of AD, sooo stop complaining, I guess. It is so incredibly easy now for folks to walk out of your soldiers. You're lucky if you get one auto off at all, especially since now the soldiers bug out more than they where for awhile there (again). Why would anyone want to play such a high risk, low reward champion that doesn't even work consistently? You're supposed to be doing all your damage with this move now, based on the way Riot has prioritized W's damage, but this move is unreliable and ineffective at even hitting your intended target. The gross difference between Q and W now doesn't even make sense if you think about it. A soldier standing still just stabbing you will do more damage than a soldier flying at you at a high velocity. Thanks for breaking physics and common sense, Rito.

Last thing. To all the people out there who are insisting that we're crazy and whiners and are bronze elo, etc. you guys have very little clue about how this guy actually works, so please, your opinions are really quite silly. Yes, Azir was OP pre-nerf, yes he was hard to lane against, but he certainly was by no means impossible to win against. It's not like Azir has ever had a godly win rate at any point of his existence. If anything, he's generally remained sub-50% since release. Azir, even with his shield, dash, and ultimate (by the way, Yasuo has the exact same kit, but that's ok, just nerf his health, not his entire concept, and that'll make him more balanced...) was entirely killable at all stages of the game - you just have to know his weaknesses. I'm sorry that you all never took the time to learn how to deal with him in the same way that we all took time to learn how to use him in the first place. Playing Azir has never been "freelo" for anyone, and anyone who thinks he is clearly has never spent much time learning him. If you carried a game with Azir pre-nerfs, it's probably because you practiced your ass off to learn him. Every pro who tried him when he was first released agreed he was incredibly difficult to use, and it took months for anyone to do remotely well with him. Just because he was permaban at any point doesn't mean much, it can only definitively represent the fact that people just didn't like playing against him. I don't like playing against Nidalee, but that doesn't mean we should decimate Nid's kit and make her useless. I hate when I'm against an Udyr in the JG because that guy's broken AF, but I don't think Udyr should be nerfed to smithereens. The lack of logic behind these nerfs is tremendously insulting, especially when viewed in light of the fact that the champion still doesn't even work the way he's supposed to. I paid good money for something that hasn't even worked 100% perfectly since I bought it, and now it works even worse. The nerf has just added insult to injury, and Rito's silence on the whole matter is even worse. At least give me the justifications for the extent of the nerfs, and explain to me how he's supposed to be viable now, instead of just ignoring the entire Azir community while you hype up stupid skins that no one even cares about. Shame on you all.

I understand Azir needed a nerf, but wouldn't a logical person nerf a small amount and see what the results are first instead of just gutting the whole package at once before they really know what the consequences will be? It doesn't even make sense. So please, Rito, at least respond to our concerns, because it's the least you owe us after the ridiculousness and lack of professionalism we have gone through surrounding this champ.

Source: I have studied this champion literally every day since his release because I friggin love him and wanted to succeed with him. I have watched streamers, LCS, subscribed to Skill-Capped, read guides, and checked ProBuilds daily to see what pros around the world are doing with him. I have also played him more or less daily since his release. No, I am not ranked, but I have a brain, and have been gaming my whole life. That should be enough.

13 Comments

Volt Cruelerz5 votes

Honestly, one Azir main to another, the nerfs barely touched my capabilities. What they did do though was destroy one of my best friends' attempts to reach my level of skill with him. He and I both play mid champions. I taught him old Xerath and Veigar. He taught me Malzahar and Vel'koz (though I typically play him support instead of mid). He would love to dominate with Azir, but now the skill floor has been raised so far that he doesn't know where to begin.

These changes barely lowered the damage output a master Azir player can put out while drastically increasing the slope of the skill curve to what is now approaching a sheer cliff, and it's not like it was flat before.

Personally, I vote up Q's cooldown dramatically at low levels and revert the damage nerf. Then, make it so as you increase W's (or as one person suggested in response R's) level, the soldier attack range increases so at max level you're back at 400 range.

GorillazNtheMyst1 votes

Out of curiosity, what are you using for a build? Maybe I'm just not good enough to use him now, which really depresses the shit out of me because I've put so much effort into learning him, and found the old version hard enough to learn.

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

It depends on the matchup. I've got three rune pages for different things: one mostly AP with a bit of MR, one mostly AP with a bit of armor, and one that's basically pure tank that's basically reserved for Talon and LB. I've then got an Azir mastery page that differs from my standard mage one for which I build RoA, Ionian, and Nashor's Tooth. Lategame I just build whatever makes sense. Typically, that means Liandry's followed by Deathcap/Void Staff/Abyssal/Banshee's/Zhonya's followed by another thing from that list or Rylai's.

Lately I've also been experimenting with a double Morello's build that's been working fantastically. First and foremost, it gets you Sorc boots instead of Ionian, but the fact that it's so much cheaper (and you're not waiting for RoA stacks) means you wind up into a powerhouse much faster. Your lategame won't be quite as strong, but laning seems to go well enough that I end up far enough ahead that it doesn't really matter. Against high sustain teams, it's amazing. The fact that you can get away with not investing in the CDR masteries anymore is also nice. That said, it seems to be the case that if you lose lane with this build, you're basically screwed.

Myrddin1 votes

{quoted}

Out of curiosity, what are you using for a build? Maybe I'm just not good enough to use him now, which really depresses the shit out of me because I've put so much effort into learning him, and found the old version hard enough to learn.

I've being going morellonomicon into rylais a lot, it makes you tankier and allows the soldiers to land more poke.

stuartk111 votes

People just didn't like playing against Azir. Before, his laning phase was a little too crazy for someone with such late game carry potential. If they're able to make Azir have a weaker laning phase, then perhaps it would have solved the problem. His Q allowed him to poke other champions and force them out of lane, but it needs to keep its range so as to allow Azir to be more prevalent in the late game. I think that increasing the mana cost for it, and increasing its cooldown at early ranks makes a lot of sense, so that he can no longer poke as easily or often, and make it a little trickier to farm CS safely.

Next is going to sound strange, but I generally don't think Azir should have ever had an escape tool in his kit. He should have been a late game high damage team-fight monster who used it mainly to reposition himself in the fight. It should have a smaller effective range, so that he can't just W Q E himself a great distance to safety.

There changes are just off the top of my head. The changes Riot had in 5.3 made it seem like this is what they wanted him to be about, but didn't execute it properly.

lojician1 votes

{quoted}

Next is going to sound strange, but I generally don't think Azir should have ever had an escape tool in his kit. He should have been a late game high damage team-fight monster who used it mainly to reposition himself in the fight.

I'm 90% sure that the reason he has mobility in addition to his huge knockback disengage ult is so faker could make flashy e$ports insec plays on him.

The design team went:

"You know that lee sin thing we all touch ourselves to at night? Let's give another champion the ability to do that."

"But the champion we're currently working on is a ranged autoattacking turret manipulator."

"So?"

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

Repositioning = Escape...

Also, you can get significantly farther if you do WEQ instead of WQE, to the point that you can bait out blinks on certain parts of the map by jumping over two walls or even back across the wall you just dashed through.

stuartk111 votes

It can still function as an escape, but it wouldn't be nearly as effective with a significantly shorter range.

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

Again, it doesn't matter how short the range is if I can hit Q while in transit and extend the range of the dash by 700.

GorillazNtheMyst1 votes

So if you increased the CD and Mana cost of Q would you keep its old damage? or keep that nerfed? Last night I tried a game for the heck of it where I put more points in W before Q, just to see if that would help me do a little more meaningful damage early, on, but I discovered pretty quickly that the CD on Q is already quite high. At that stage you have no CDR, so every time I would try to engage someone who was low, or any time they engaged me, I found myself being unable to really do much to them because my Q was never coming off CD fast enough. They reposition themselves faster than you can cast it, and I lost potential early kills because of it. Then I switched back to the old way of upgrading Q first and found the CD was much better, but I was still saddled with the lack of damage issue, so neither option was particularly successful.

As regards his ult: the wall is necessary to his kit because it allows Azir to engage an enemy and put them in a position where he can perform his DPS on them. It is by no means a particularly safe form of engage, however. He also needs it as an escape because his E can be interrupted, and without a get away every Azir on earth would just feed the whole game because as soon as you CC him in any way he dies. It's always been relatively simple to deal with an Azir, I don't know why people have been so upset about him just because he had a great range (because Ziggs, Xerath, and Syndra don't have equally disgusting ranges apparently).

The Bard Dog1 votes

i run my azir like this

9x flat cdr glyphs 2x flat cdr quints 9x scaling hp per level seals 9x magic pen marks 1x magic pen quint

item 3115(cdr capped+attack speed boost and easier mana saving csing)item 3089 item 3135 item 3151 item 3157 item 3006

leaves me with about 1.6 AS, about 650 ap, and a bunch of magic pen/%health magic damage to melt anyone and everyone before they even reach me.

Yya1 votes

The nerf on Azir's W is the dumbest nerf Riot has ever put out. They released it without any feedback whatsoever. Here is a metaphor for what they did. It's like Riot started playing super loud music (Aka Ultimate Sona Skin) and then whispered to you, "Is it okay if I cut off your arms" (Aka Azir is getting nerfed into the ground) and you did not hear them over the loud music, so they cut your arms off anyways. I think that they should not realise content that has not been tested, And I think that Azir's W should have the range it had originally.

ElysMustache1 votes

{quoted} But data is data,

This is really the key flaw in your thinking, in my opinion. Meaningful analysis of data is not as straightforward as it seems. This doesn't mean that your conclusions are inaccurate, simply that a lower winrate is not necessarily indicative of imbalance.

So, the champion changed. This would imply that the previous optimal method of playing him is possibly different than the current optimal method of playing him. But if player behavior did not change (or is yet to change), then his winrate could be expected to be lower than it should be if he is played optimally.

There is the additional possibility that many players tried him since the change just to see how much differently he performs. These players are likely mentally biased against the changes and expect him to be worse. Many of these players may not have been fluent with him to begin with, and again, tried to play him exactly as they had tried to play him previously. Without adjustment, they naturally did worse than they could have.

I would like to reiterate that your conclusions are not necessarily incorrect, simply that the blithe statement "data is data", is erroneous, and that subtler things may be affecting that data.

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