It feels like you have a damage tree, a damage/utility tree, and a tank/ultility tree. Does anyone else feel like this is the case? I honestly wish we could go back to 30 point trees like in season 1. I would love to dump all of my points into one tree.
NastyMcOutplay6 votesi like the old trees
GigglesO5 votesi like the old trees
I honestly don't understand what meaningful choices this new mastery system gives, I feel like the old one had better choices to make.
Keevalroy8 votesThat's because they did give better choices and more variety in builds without punishing you for not going all the way down a tree, forcing you into cookie-cutter loadouts just so you can abuse your bullshit keystone.
ChaoticPinecone3 votesWhile kinda true, its also not.
I rarely, if ever, saw any advocates for going 15-15 or 10-10-10. There is only one difference between the old trees and the new one - the new one you are forced into a cookie-cutter loadout depending on the keystone you want. The old one forced you into a cookie cutter loadout based on role.
The only champions I see the Keystones really be limited for are: Akali (30-0-0), Teemo (30-0-0), or Shaco (28-2-0). And even then, running so heavily into one tree on these champs wasnt the norm. For the most part, everyone took 21 in one tree and 9 in another other.
JRobin312 votesI think part of the reason that the new choices don't feel as meaningful is that RIOT has effectively made these choices for the players. It doesn't feel like there are as many ways to spend your mastery points. You feel as if you have to choose the options that RIOT has decided that you should have.
Also, the reality is that the masteries don't serve all champions equally. Some champions have synergy with masteries and others don't. If you are an energy based champions, for example, then you just don't get any synergy with the mana based masteries. But you still have to go for a keystone because RIOT made the keystones so powerful. So you are forced into your choices rather than actually having a meaningful choice. RIOT doesn't want players to have to look up their masteries online for the champion they want to play... so now your choices are forced. They look like choices, but they aren't really choices. And the fact that they are powerful choices doesn't make them meaningful at all it just makes the choices more forced.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesWell, thats why I say kinda true and kinda not.
Yes, keystones are powerful. But how often did you see anyone pre-keystone era not take at least 21 points in one tree? Those last 5 or so points in each tree were the powerful masteries that you really wanted. Even before the keystone era, your choices were just as forced for the most part - you went 21 points in one tree, 9 in another.
If the keystones give you the illusion of choice, the old masteries game you the same illusion. The effect might not be as noticeable, since the old masteries were not as powerful as the keystones, but you really didnt lose much choice when the keystones were introduced. Unless, of course, you liked dumping all your masteries into one tree.
JRobin312 votesI took all sorts of interesting masteries choices in the old system and often did not go with the standard 21/9 formats. Just because those options weren't as popular doesn't mean they weren't relevant. The new system really works hard to force you to take a keystone. Not taking a keystone in the new system isn't just unpopular; it's actually bad.
In the new system, everything gets broken down into chunks of six points. So in reality you are only making five choices in the new system. As soon as you get within six points of the next tier, you have to commit to the next tier. You can't spend even a single point towards the next tier without being compelled to go the full six points to the next tier because spending in less than six point chunks is so bad in this mastery system.
This is why the illusion of choice is worse in the new system than it was in the old system. It's the little points here and there that made those mastery choices interesting and now you basically have to spend in six point chunks. And yeah, this is great for players that don't want to do any research on masteries online and want to be able to quickly modify their masteries during champion select without suffering decision overload. But it sucks for players who actually enjoyed thinking about their mastery choices.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesI would respond with your first point by saying not taking 21/9 wasnt just unpopular - it was bad. However, since the mastery system didnt have as much impact in the game, the "badness" of not taking 21/9 wasnt as apparent. Taking at least 21 in one tree was pretty much always optimal.
You talk about the illusion of choice in the current mastery system, but I think youre forgetting the illusion of choice in the old mastery system. Yes, you had more options in the old system, but nobody really deviated from the cookie-cutter trees they prepared. Like, for example, on a mage you wouldnt forgo the 5% increased AP in the offensive tree for AS on a Crit, would you?
JRobin311 votesI would respond that 21/9 was often optimal (and often not), but it was definitely most popular because players preferred to look their masteries up online and use a cookie-cut. And because so many players preferred not to spend a lot of time thinking about what masteries they should take, RIOT implemented the current mastery system so that players could spend less time thinking about those choices. And, in fact, there are players who think it would be good if the mastery system was done away with altogether so that they don't have to make any choices about it at all!
As to your question, IF I went for Havoc in the offensive tree as a mage I would generally take 5% ability power bonus magic damage on hit over attack speed on crits. Your argument assumes that I must go for Havoc and that I must not spend my points in the offense tree in another way to arrive there. In fact, in the old system it was possible to get Havoc without getting either attack speed on crits or 5% ability power bonus magic damage on hit or to get other offensive masteries in addition to getting those.
I'm not saying that the old mastery system didn't have forced choices. I'm saying it was a richer field of choices than the current system and your question to me about this choice actually points that out. There are probably players who are happy those options no longer exist. Why not look up masteries online instead of thinking about it? Would you say that the current system is better because we don't have to consider those sorts of options anymore? There's definitely a case to be made that simpler is better.
Faustavian2 votes
:D
Glory ln Death1 votesHAH!
Because he's an old tree!
Iz funny.
Valderis Vandala5 votesBoth the old trees and the new ones suffer from the same "problems", Riot is currently still married to the idea of needing 30 points because there's 30 account/summoner levels, and they can't seem to get away from the idea of trees where points have to be spend in a tree in order to progress deeper along the tree. And to a lesser extent the multi-point skills are just dumb.
I hope they can get their act together once the new client comes out so we can do away with these archaic traditions and get to some sensible systems that actually allow for some flexibility and no longer be chained to 30 points or multi-point skills. Same goes for their Rune system, and their IP and RP, and their shop in general.
Spaceman5pff1 votesYou are aware that the new client is available, right?
50000000000000003 votesThe switch over isn't complete, though. Making new features for both clients is unnecessary work, and it's also difficult to make new features on the old client. That's part of the reason why they're making a new client.
Valderis Vandala1 votesYes, but its still in its open beta phase, they are currently working on bugs and stuff, they are not yet working on adding new features or changing old ones, that comes later. Doing these things now would cost double the work due to currently having two working clients, the old client first has to be phased out.
Glory ln Death1 votesOpen Beta, not Alpha.
Valderis Vandala1 votesRight sorry.
YumaS2Astral5 votesRiot seems to want to make the Cunning tree attractive for damage-oriented champions, unlike other past utility trees. The problem is that they are doing that in the wrong way. Ferocity should be the only tree that increases your damage, while Cunning should offer utility only. However, it doesn't need to be just team-wide utility like the other past utility trees. It could offer offensive utility too. What I mean with offensive utility? Well, look at Dangerous Game. This mastery makes you better in combat but does not directly increase your damage. Instead, it allows you to survive that bit of leftover damage from things like Ignite or Deathfire Touch, once you kill an enemy. If other masteries were like this, Cunning would be a healthier tree, but damage oriented champions would still want it.
There are lots of ways to make you better in combat without directly increasing your damage. For example, giving more movement speed, refreshing/reducing your cooldowns after kills/assists, increasing your self sustain, giving you a shield (that only works on you), etc.
Spoofghoul2 votesYes i loved to dump 30 points into the defensive tree if i wanted to be tanky
Escheton1 votesI think they should move the magic/armor pen tier 4 to the Resolve tree and replace it with an xp mastery. One that gives enough passive xp for you to hit 6 a wave earlyer. And with the old xp passive added if giving a bit more when near a higher lvl ally.
That way you lose some of the damage inflation of going 12/18/0. And tanks get some more use out of sunfire and such.
GigglesO2 votesI think they should move the magic/armor pen tier 4 to the Resolve tree
I don't understand how pen is "utility" when its a direct correlation with damage. They could honestly almost just reduce it down to one giant pick what you get system... Mix and match, because that would allow for actual meaningful choices.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesThats why they changed it from "Offensive/Defensive/Utility" to "Ferocity/Cunning/Resolve"
Ferocity is about the longer engagements. Cunning is about exploiting windows of power (making the window bigger, making you hit harder during the window). Resolve is about surviving-when-you-shouldnt-survive.
LankPants3 votesI think they should move the magic/armor pen tier 4 to the Resolve tree and replace it with an xp mastery.
"Two of three trees are already offence trees, may as well make it 3", no.
JRobin312 votesI think there is a problem with getting xp that let's you hit early levels quicker. Getting level 2 or level 6 before your opponent is considered really strong in higher level play.
If RIOT did implement xp, I think they should make it catch up xp when you are behind level or bonus xp once you reach level 6. That way RIOT can focus on xp bonuses as a way to help late game carries reach their potential rather than as an impossible to balance early game boost.
Escheton1 votesWell, it's a tier 4 mastery, it should have some game impact. Also, quite a few laners take a (partial) jungle camp to get ahead of their opponent begin game. And even during the game,mids have been known especially for frming a quick raptor in between.
So It's not like xp is static. Especially considering back timers, missed minions kill xp etc.
I think the xp mastery should not be strong enough to let you hit lvl 2 faster, but should help reach 6 a tad faster, and help those behind catch up when grouped.
BastionKross1 votesMore like "Sustained Damage" tree, "Burst Damage/Utility" tree, and "Courage of the Colossus" tree.