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Tanks vs adcs

titaniumfreefall··9 votes·2,085 views

lets just say this, i love playing tanks. nautilus, leona, braum, etc. but i have been seeing a strange trend. mr and armor have a very low impact mid-ish to late game. lets take nautilus for example: lots of health, mr, and armor and a pretty hefty shield right? right. so why is it possible for an adc to kill me outright over the course of about 3-4 seconds? i realise that naut should not be dueling adc's, but when i get melted in team fights solely for the fact that im on top of the adc is a bit unnerving. armor mr and health seem so far behind damage that damage cant even see them in the rear view mirror, not that it looks because its not worried about them at all.

but what im getting at is that adc's dont need to focus and kill high priority targets. they just hit whoever is close to them or annoying them at that time and thats usually a tank trying to cc them. i figure that they have an attack of (im guesstimating) about 500 damage. tanks normally have about 3500 to 4000 hp, thats between 6-8 aa's without factoring in crit, which would make it about 4-6 aa's. with an attack speed of 1.5-2.0 (seeing as a few popular adcs have AS steroids) that takes about 2-4 seconds.

moreover, so many ad items come with some form of armor ignore/shred (last whisper/botrk) which are pretty uncounterable (is that a word?) by tanks who either A) build more armor or B) build more health.

but guess what, the more armor you buy the more percent is being ignored so youre only gaining a fraction of what you paid for

and the more health you have, the more you are being chunked by %hp damage items.

IMO i believe that adc's have taken over the game. the era of adc, as i call it. i also think this is why people are going so many apc supports that can do massive damage (lux, velkoz, morg, annie, etc.) while they all have cc and slows to be technically called supports, they only contribute more damage from the back line instead of more survivability or damage soak on the frontline. sure there might be a shield here or there, but its not like leona or thresh or braum standing in the middle of a teamfight ccing the carries.

tanks are called tanks for a reason, but the way i see it, tanks should be renamed "free gold" or "slight annoyance" instead.

59 Comments

WooBeeWoo4 votes

I totally agree. Naut is my favorite and I never play him cause hes totally useless. I don't even have time to set a decent engage up because if I get aa a few times im on my death bed.... ADCs make this game pretty shallow.

DPRKSpy3 votes

That's a bit abstract, op.

The whole purpose of being the tank in an offensive role is to buy those valuable seconds of being a nuisance to the priorities so that your teams dps champs can go for the kill while you CC the living hell out of whoever it is you're on top of. Obviously you're going to die if you overstay your welcome in the adcs face; the peel for the adc comes (Janna Thresh and you soon find yourself on the receiving end of a barrage of AA. Tanks are reactive champs, their builds are centred around the enemy teams main sources of damage.

The intrinsic value of the ADC is essentially to be a glass cannon, in that you sacrifice solid defense for massive offensive capabilities. It's the nature of HOW that damage comes out that will define whether or not you get melted. There's two types of ADC I can see: the AA type, and the burst type. Vayne is an AA type, dealing damage through repeated AAs that trigger her W passive; while Ezreal is a bursting ADC, relying more on the damage from skills and damage buffs for individual AAs (like Ezreal with a sheen or Graves with an IE).

Granted, shred items exist, but there are always answers for them. Keep in mind these answers are NOT the end-all to shred items, they merely soften the blow. Randuins is probably the best answer - in most cases - to BOTRK being built. It's innate AS debuff passive combined with the MS slow active is lethal to anyone that chooses to AA you. But obviously again, it doesn't make you invincible, just more of a nuisance/threat to enemy ADC. As to why a tank would have 4000 hp outside of being Mundo (who isn't really a tank in the classical sense either), you're just inviting people to get HP shred to answer you. In regards to LW: without it, ADC would be useless as every champ in every role would stack armor to make ADC useless. It's necessary to the gameplay of LoL for it to exist.

My point is that the tank cannot do it alone, your items and your play help contribute to the overall success of your team. Being a tank means you value teamwork over the individual skill of a player (not that that's not important either) - your MO of the game. If it means sacrificing yourself to buy your carries precious seconds of survival in a fight, then you've accomplished what tanks do. So yeah, as a tank, you're going to have to throw yourself right in the middle of it, eating sheen procs and AOE all day. But that's what we Shen do. So don't build more armor or more hp, as ofc LW and BOTRK will just destroy you, instead opt for option C: Play smarter

LordKentravyon3 votes

it's still some top tier BS when you see a vayne absolutely melt a full stack cho with 200+ armor and 4000+ hp

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

it's still some top tier BS when you see a vayne absolutely melt a full stack cho with 200+ armor and 4000+ hp

Yeah, screw Vayne for doing what she specializes in. I understand being annoyed with Whisper, that item is complete nonsense, but getting upset at Vayne for countering hard targets when the whole point of Vayne is to counter hard targets seems kind of silly.

What the game needs is to have the order of %pen and flat pen swapped back to what it was in Season 1/2 and then release a +25% bonus HP item to function as a soft-counter to %pen.

OJ1911 votes

{quoted}

What the game needs is to have the order of %pen and flat pen swapped back to what it was in Season 1/2 and then release a +25% bonus HP item to function as a soft-counter to %pen.

yeah how about no, I'd rather not go back to bruisers 1v3 1v4 1v5 as they get more and more fed

Kuroi862 votes

That is what Vayne is meant to do. Vayne is a tank buster, her point is to obliterate a tank, the trade off is that she has low range and is purely single target damage. If a tank can lock her down for even a two seconds, she will typically die to the tanks team thanks to Vayne having to put herself in a bad position.

Kuroi862 votes

4000 hp, not just for Mundo lol. Chogath Nasus Renekton

Toru Itai3 votes

it's not about the tank getting killed, it's about te tank dieing in 5 seconds instead of 10

Nissasah1 votes

Sure, some tanks might be a bit weak now but in your maths your forgetting a lot of factors. First you're not counting in armor, which is a really big factor. Second, most tanks would have Randuin's Omen which slows the attack speed. Third, far from all adcs have that attack speed you wrote down (Think Corki, Lucian, Ezreal). Realisticly an adc wont attack according to 100% of their attackspeed, it's a very scenario to scenario but I'd guess average would be around maybe 70-80% in teamfights (Could be very wrong though, so don't take this for granted). Just some food for thought.

Angry Monster3 votes

food for thought. Tanks have not been played out side of the support role in over a year and half.

wonder why? cause they are useless

O and j4 is not a tank he is a brusier

LongFur Fox2 votes

maokai has been played top lane a lot and it is not even a year since top meta was renekton, mundo and shyvana (although none of them are true tanks)... as for jungle then i would argue that if riot made the changes needed for true tank junglers to be viable there would be shit storm on forums from everyone (including those who like tank junglers)

Angry Monster2 votes

Mao is also building AP for damage. Whats your point? Mundo is not a tank. Shy is not a tank. ren is not a tank. They are brusiers that build tanky. How can you call mundo a tank with that E damage steroid? Yeah he soaks a lot, but if thats what we use call something a tank you are messing up the game.

Then anyone who builds health is a tank.

This is not what makes a tank. This is a brusier

LongFur Fox2 votes

While i do agree with you on mundo and shyvanna many people don't. Maokai however is a tank even though he build a roa for a bit of extra damage. There are no tanks that get away with just building health and resistances as people can then just ignore them. True tanks are defined by the cc and other utility they provide this means people like maokai, nautilus, chogath, tank gragas etc. when not talking about supports. On that note alistar got played not too long ago to as a toplaner.

Angry Monster1 votes

i tend to agree with the CC part defining tanks. Though what i meant is that Mao is viable cause of the extra damage he is able to build. If He could not build roa he would be worthless. What is a bruiser and what is a tank?

Tanks are pretty easy. They are CC machines with low damage output. Bruiser are champs that build a damage item or 2 and then D items for the rest. The problem comes when you are addressing champs like mudo who obviously is not a tank but the stand bruiser definition does not work cause of the way his kit holds the offensive power he needs.

Mao is slowly becoming a bruiser tank. People are picking him for 1v1 potential not really to team fight with. Mao may become the first actual bruiser tank cause of his reworked w. Riot really missed a opportunity with mao when they did the changes on him. Mao is listed as a mage tank, but he has to auto for his passive? They really should of dived deeper in his mini rework. In some way i feel that mao is a ball of stats champion. Tons of shit thrown in weird ways.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

i tend to agree with the CC part defining tanks. Though what i meant is that Mao is viable cause of the extra damage he is able to build. If He could not build roa he would be worthless. What is a bruiser and what is a tank?

Tanks are pretty easy. They are CC machines with low damage output. Bruiser are champs that build a damage item or 2 and then D items for the rest. The problem comes when you are addressing champs like mudo who obviously is not a tank but the stand bruiser definition does not work cause of the way his kit holds the offensive power he needs.

Mao is slowly becoming a bruiser tank. People are picking him for 1v1 potential not really to team fight with. Mao may become the first actual bruiser tank cause of his reworked w. Riot really missed a opportunity with mao when they did the changes on him. Mao is listed as a mage tank, but he has to auto for his passive? They really should of dived deeper in his mini rework. In some way i feel that mao is a ball of stats champion. Tons of shit thrown in weird ways.

I agree with a lot of what you say. But I have a really easy way for you to help consolidate your definitions.

Bruisers/Fighters - Udyr, Nocturne, Volibear, Mundo, J4 - They build lots of AD/Attack speed. - Ghostblade, Frozen Mallet, Maw of Malmortius - Good at 1v1.

Tanks - Amumu, Sejuani, Zac, Maokai, Sniged, Rammus, Cho'Gath - Lots of AP/CDR - Rylas, Rod of Ages, Frozen Heart, Iceborn Gauntlet, Abyssal Scepter - Good at AoE, best used in team fights.

Bruisers/Fighters deal most of their damage via slapping things (Mundo's E, Jarvan's Free attack speed+armor shred, Nocturne's free attack speed + AD)

Tanks Deal most of their damage via abilities and usually hit multiple targets. (Cho'gath Q->E spam and R finisher, Rammus Q -> R, Galio's Q->E->R, Amumu's Q->R->W->E, etc.)

Does that make sense? When I figured this out it was like everything suddenly clicked and I understood WHY Riot makes a lot of champions the way they do.

Angry Monster2 votes

j4 is not a tank. Look at his ratios. Look at his kit. He is a bruiser with 1 CC move that requires 2 of his skills.

To say j4 is a tank is to say daruis is a tank with his CC.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

j4 is not a tank. Look at his ratios. Look at his kit. He is a bruiser with 1 CC move that requires 2 of his skills.

To say j4 is a tank is to say daruis is a tank with his CC.

That's pretty much what I said. o_o His name is the last one on the Fighter list I put up.

Angry Monster2 votes

sry mis read.

I have been reading lot of j4 is a tank shit and went blind when seeing the word j4

again mb

LongFur Fox1 votes

I have seen many streams with people getting item 3800 instead of roa especially when they jungle him (though i doubt we will see that in pro matches). The main reason i buy roa is not because of the damage increase but because of the mana and sustain it gives. Maokai has 3 cc moves and a damage reduction aura so i would argue that he fits the bill of a tank pretty well.

Upcomming rant due to allergic reaction to "ball of stats" phrase: On the ball of stats thing then it is really a phrase being thrown around a lot without realizing what it means and it probably one of the worst riot creations. If two champions are defined as a "ball of stats" then it should not matter which is picked beside one ball maybe being stronger. However even though there are a lot of these it is clear that there are differences between them and if anything i would argue that adc's are the biggest ball of stats especially late game where some of them hardly use abilities beside gapmakers.

Angry Monster1 votes

Off course people are getting righteous glory instead of ROA when jungling. You do not have to wait for 10 minutes to get full power of the item. Top laners will get ROA since they get it pre 20 minutes (should at least).

Um ok, on the rant. You are talking about mobility creep for ADCs? Cause that is for everyone. I do not play ADC, but i personally do not feel that they are a ball of stats. They literally have to build into what they are.

I said ball of stats cause of the random abilities of his kit, so i should of said random abilities ?. Its not they are unhealthy they are just random things. Health gain on auto, when you are not an auto champ. Sapling throw is an awkward slow that only slows on blow up. The sapling scale on the movement of the slowest champ in the game.

LongFur Fox1 votes

Just wanted to give extra proof of the fact that maokai is a tank nothing else meant on the righteous glory.

On the rant i have just grown tired of people throwing out ball of stats comments. It is not too bad when talking about junglers but as an irelia main i see too many people throwing out that comments without knowing what it is. I do however agree that his spells does not combo very well but that goes for every old champion since back then riot made champs with abilities they thought were cool or would fit well with the theme compared to now where abilities and how they work out are factored into which abilities make it to live.

Angry Monster1 votes

I do however agree that his spells does not combo very well but that goes for every old champion since back then riot made champs with abilities they thought were cool or would fit well with the theme compared to now where abilities and how they work out are factored into which abilities make it to live.

That is why i said earlier i was disappointed in his mini rework.

Just wanted to give extra proof of the fact that maokai is a tank nothing else meant on the righteous glory.

Meh he is becoming a high damage tank for top lane, Hence bruiser tank. Again people would not be grabbing Mao if he did not do damage. Yes he has a lot of utility but in the pro scene that would be ignored if all he had was that. Mao is not the only tank that shifted into damage, Sej also got the treatment,

I run tank jungle and i can honestly say anyone who takes tank jungle is slightly crazy. So much of the game flies out of your hands at 30 minutes. You have to pray that you fed your team enough

LongFur Fox1 votes

Yeah many of the tanks are not very good in the jungle atm but i actually believe they are getting better. The preseason changes already made constant ganking worse and patch 5.1 is only enforcing this and why might end up with a similar thing as when zac was a good jungler (that is farm a lot and only gank when it is certain to get a kill). If you don't believe me you can go watch nightblue3. He has played a decent amount of nautilus lately.

Kuroi861 votes

Chogath Malphite Rammus Volibear They can get away with just building health and resistances.

LongFur Fox1 votes

Chogath: wants cdr for more cc. Take my post literally: He cannot get away with just mr, armor, and health he needs cdr for extra cc or everyone will ignore him.

Malphite: also wants cdr and many build some ap and mana on him. That said he again thrives on his utility and engage.

Rammus: Same as malphite though he does gain more damage with armor in a more significant way than malphite does.

Volibear: It has been a long time since i have seen a volibear not get attack speed items or ms items. If he has none of those i will ignore him as a support since he poses no threat.

DeadXera1 votes

item 3110 item 3056 You do realize defensive CDR items do exist, right?

LongFur Fox2 votes

Which is why i said "just building health and resistances". I have been through a lot of the tank threads an all of them complain about getting killed fast even though a tanks primary job is not to be tanky. I would buy FH on tanks even if it had ad instead of armor just because it gives mana, cdr and one of the best auras in the game.

DeadXera1 votes

My apologies, by how your worded your prior response, my head just kinda readjusted your argument to mean "non-offensive items".

Kuroi862 votes

Didn't say that it was the optimum build, just they can get away with it. ;) The way their base damages and scalings work, all four can build pretty much full tank with little consequence.

LongFur Fox2 votes

Well yeah if we go that way but then even ashe can get away with it. Baseline is that they all need cdr or some other thing to make them a priority target. As i see it then if you are the last target to get focused as a tank you have too much armor and too little utility. The perfect tank (an impossible standard, i know) would be worth to target first due to how much utility he has.

Kuroi861 votes

Hm, considerable AoE on all of them, pretty heavy nukes, more than a little CC, don't see why you wouldn't get focused lol.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Hm, considerable AoE on all of them, pretty heavy nukes, more than a little CC, don't see why you wouldn't get focused lol.

Because they're still doing less overall damage than the LW PD IE Marksman hitting for 600 twice a second. So why spend energy on the "-75% damage taken" Alistar when your Fizz could instead dive the Tristana who's melting your whole team on her own?

Kuroi861 votes

Because I play champs like Nautilus & Malphite ^_^

When I dive, I tend to leave squishies half health, if not less, much less if I'm playing Malphite. xD

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Because I play champs like Nautilus & Malphite ^_^

When I dive, I tend to leave squishies half health, if not less, much less if I'm playing Malphite. xD

Malphite is the only Fighter who I think can also play the Tank role thanks to his massive amounts of AoE damage/CC. AD Malphite with Hydra jumps into the middle of an enemy team and then pretty much just wrecks everything around him. Though AP Malphite is probably going to take a huge hit with the removal of DFG.

Kuroi861 votes

His base damages, along with his W bonus armor and E armor scaling help him play excellently as a full tank. His base AD makes item 3025 a dream on him. About the only thing I wish is that they would buff back up the AR scaling on his E, but eh.

For AP Malphite, I really think he could be done for, I tried it a couple of times and without DFG, you're really going to be lacking in burst mid game which is when you need it the most to really get fed.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

His base damages, along with his W bonus armor and E armor scaling help him play excellently as a full damage soak.

(fixed for clarity's sake.)

His base AD makes item 3025 a dream on him. About the only thing I wish is that they would buff back up the AR scaling on his E, but eh.

The problem is that Frozen Heart was simply TOO good on him. He didn't need to build damage to do damage, so he was invincible while smashing your entire team at the same time. Though MR per level was much rarer back then.

For AP Malphite, I really think he could be done for, I tried it a couple of times and without DFG, you're really going to be lacking in burst mid game which is when you need it the most to really get fed.

I don't think I'll shed too many tears for the insta gib "You can't stop me" play style it made for though.

Kuroi861 votes

Really? Is that why Jarvan is listed as a tank primary, fighter secondary? Most tanks are still viable, they just aren't popular in the current meta.

Angry Monster2 votes

your retarded the naming system does not recognize bruiser as a class. Look at J4 AD ratios and try saying he is a tank

Kuroi861 votes

A. Reported.

B. Look at the amount of CC he has as well as his base damages, he can work as a viable tank. Not to mention many consider bruiser an off class of tank.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

A. Reported.

B. Look at the amount of CC he has as well as his base damages, he can work as a viable tank. Not to mention many consider bruiser an off class of tank.

CC means nothing. Kalista is a Marksman with an AoE Knockup.

Bruiser/Fighter =/= Tank

Please don't confuse people further. Riot already does an awful job at explaining the classes and probably has a few of them mislabeled.

Fighter = Single Target DPS for 1v1 (Master Yi)

Tank = AoE DPS for 5v5 team fights (Amumu)

Durability means nothing. Anyone can build a Frozen Mallet. Anyone can buy Thornmail. What matters is how the champion's kit plays.

Kuroi861 votes

No, Kalista' soulbound has an AOE knock up.

Fighters are close range combatants that possess a mix of offensive and defensive capabilities. While they don't have as much utility as a tank or as much damage as an assassin, a fighter's damage will add up over time to make it a major threat. Each fighter has a unique blend of mobility, damage, disruption and durability.

Tanks are durable, front-line champions that help lock down enemies and start fights. They're usually found leading the charge, choosing the right times and situations to initiate aggression. Many tanks can also protect their more fragile teammates by stunning or pushing around dangerous foes and limiting their damage potential.

Please don't confuse people by trying to put your own definitions onto champs.

Done251 votes

I'm curious, is it possible for you to be any more stupid?

{quoted}

No, Kalista' soulbound has an AOE knock up.

No, it's Kalista who causes it. Her team mate just happens to be the ammo she shoots out. They can't do it without Kalista activating the skill.

Fighters are close range combatants that possess a mix of offensive and defensive capabilities. While they don't have as much utility as a tank or as much damage as an assassin, a fighter's damage will add up over time to make it a major threat. Each fighter has a unique blend of mobility, damage, disruption and durability.

That such horribly generic description. What makes you think Fighters can't BE assassins via their playstyles? Shaco, Nocturne, Fizz, Master Yi, Talon, Irelia. These are all Fighters whos kits provide someway for them to escape from a fight. Shaco has his blink, boxes, slow, AND Hallucinate. Nocturne gets a speed boost on Dusk Path and can block CC being shot at him with his spell shield. Fizz is one of THE slipperiest bastards in the game with his Q + E. Master Yi is outright IMMUNE to being slowed while his ult is up. Talon can turn invisible at the touch of a button and gain a huge move speed boost for repositioning or running away. Irelia's slow turns into a stun while she's at low HP and she gets free tenacity for each nearby enemy champion.

Tanks are durable, front-line champions that help lock down enemies and start fights. They're usually found leading the charge, choosing the right times and situations to initiate aggression. Many tanks can also protect their more fragile teammates by stunning or pushing around dangerous foes and limiting their damage potential.

Please don't confuse people by trying to put your own definitions onto champs.

You're putting the cart before the horse. Tanks are not front line champions because they're durable, they like to be durable because they're the ones in the front lines! It's a huge difference. Do you want to know how much durability Amumu wants? Enough to survive the initial burst. After that he's going to want CDR + AP to make him more of a threat. Who is Graves more likely to focus? The 300 armor Amumu with 0 AP? Or the 200 armor Amumu with 100 AP whos Tantrums really freaking hurt.

Kuroi861 votes

Wow, can you be any more toxic?

You're welcome to your opinion, but the fact still stands. Jarvan is listed as a Tank Fighter. No amount of insults or acting like you know more is going to change this, so deal with it.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Wow, can you be any more toxic?

You're welcome to your opinion, but the fact still stands. Jarvan is listed as a Tank Fighter. No amount of insults or acting like you know more is going to change this, so deal with it.

And here I though they removed Dodge. You avoided replying to anything quite nicely.

Jarvan is an old champion from when Riot was still figuring things out. It would be more accurate if they were to swap the "Tank OR Fighter" designation they have for him to: "Class/Job/Etc: Fighter Playstlye: Disrupter"

They need to go back and reclassify ALL of the champions more accurately.

Kuroi862 votes

They need to go back and reclassify ALL of the champions more accurately.

Now that I can agree with. As for Jarvan, I figured he to always to have been a fighter tank instead of a tank fighter, but his classification is the way it is. Given his level of Disruption ability, base damage as well as his shield. Jarvan can function perfectly fine as either a bruiser or a straight tank.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Now that I can agree with. Given his level of Disruption ability, base damage as well as his shield. Jarvan can function perfectly fine as either a bruiser or a straight tank.

I agree in that he can still easily perform his job while building durable (Which is what I think you mean when you call him a Tank.) His high level of disruption allows him to perform in the only way that people see Tanks as good for, which is to mess up the other team's coordination and positioning.

As for Jarvan, I figured he to always to have been a fighter tank instead of a tank fighter, but his classification is the way it is.

Yea, he definitely fits the Fighter role much more accurately. Riot just needs to fix his classification.

It's not like they're perfect or anything. :P Just look at how long it took them to remove the cancer that was DFG. [It was an item that was designed to remove counterplay by significantly increasing single target burst. Especially the original version that could easily do 40%+ max HP on activation.]

Kuroi861 votes

Pretty much. Most people classify a tank as someone who possesses enough CC or raw damage in their kit that they can build full durability and still be highly effective, or even more effective than raw damage given that they deal their damage over time instead of all at once.

If I remember right, DFG was originally intended to aide in tank busting for fed assassins. But the problem is items that are effective against tanks, are just as, if not more effective against squishy champs.

No, Riot isn't perfect, but given how well the game has done, I still think they have done an excellent job on this game. Personally, I would love to see a non-rank 5v5 map where items like this were still available. A place where Riot could let broken ideas run wild, let people see how broken this game could actually be. Maybe then we'd see a little less complaining.

Kuroi861 votes

Well, Riot has redefined the jungle, perhaps next top lane and the tanks/bruisers will see the next big overhaul? Would be interesting.

Same problem with LW and Void Staff atm.

Agreed, I can't help but feel reducing the AD/AP on the items would be a big step up. I've also heard the idea of reverting the order in which penetration is applied would help some as well.

I still want to see Urf and Doombots come back, remind people what a broken game actually looks like lol. >_>

Dingding1231 votes

look at how freaking small this box is

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