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@Riot "Mobility should have an actual cost"

Tik115··13 votes·1,545 views

Ok so awhile back Morello said the problem with the mobility creep is that champions that have it have the same amount of power as imobile champions and said that mobile champions should have a cost to their mobility not so much mana cost (though lord knows that helped Zed /kappa) but through their strength

pray tell then why did Riot decide "Lets put a ton of mobility on an ADC" did they not learn with Lucian that mobility of an ADC will ALWAYS be strong? and with Kalista, well that whole "Cost to her mobility" I just ain't seeing it, its just the same costs a normal ADC has

I mean Kalista has - A Passive that is near impossible to catch her with once she gets T2 boots a % Max health proc every 8 seconds if their support has a brain Essentially 2 semi sight wards which can last much longer then a sight ward which replenish around every 30 seconds an infinatly stacking damage attack when when activated has a slow a 100% AD scaling Nidalee spear distance spear WHICH can apply those stacks AND her passive An ult which is a troll poll (Ignited the oathsworn? lol they can wait out lots of the ignite damage in her ult) and a Malphite ult in 1 which, excluding being out of range, has 0 counterplay

I mean I don't get why they say they want to give mobility champions costs and then pack a ton of power into them and go by the excuse that they have low stats.

The excuse that Kalista is vulnerable early game isn't justifyable ether because every ADC Hell the Imobile ADCs are vulnerable are early game, thats kind of how their designed (Mostly...Lucian )

I would love to know from Riot where is Kalistas cost for her mobility? because minus the lack of a steroid (which given the % max HP and inft scaling E she doesn't need one) I see no "Cost" for this level of mobility

37 Comments

Hayaishi12 votes

Riot never applies their design values into the game.

AetherKingdom2 votes

They do to a select few.

chumbler9 votes

You should know by now that Riot both has no clue what they're doing and lies a lot. Like seriously, a lot.

Kaisha1 votes

You should know by now that Riot both has no clue what they're doing and lies a lot. Like seriously, a lot.

Ya, they just say whatever comes to mind at the time and they think will keep the masses placated, then do whatever they were gonna do anyways. Pretty much every post by a riot dev needs to be followed by a RickRoll...

Stephenizgod5 votes

You forgot to add that not only does she have this highly mobile passive, she also has a slow... you know for those rare few who can actually get away from her infinite dashes... I say remove the slow and remove the dash from her Q, "but waaah she cant jump over walls" well too bad its already impossible to catch her as a melee, they dont need her jumping over a wall when she makes a mistake in her dashing...melee champs have enough of a disadvantage against ranged, Kalista is taking that weakness and shoving it down their throats... but from out of range of their attacks.

Tik1152 votes

You forgot to add that not only does she have this highly mobile passive, she also has a slow... you know for those rare few who can actually get away from her infinite dashes... I say remove the slow and remove the dash from her Q, "but waaah she cant jump over walls" well too bad its already impossible to catch her as a melee, they dont need her jumping over a wall when she makes a mistake in her dashing...melee champs have enough of a disadvantage against ranged, Kalista is taking that weakness and shoving it down their throats... but from out of range of their attacks.

Will add that to what she has

also her leap shouldn't be longer if she's jumping away from people, even a Lucian can't orb walk forever so why should she be able to?

Stephenizgod3 votes

Riot: "Hmmm this could be a weakness, give her a mechanic to counter it."

Meep Man5 votes

Cost for mobility? Well lets see here for the extremely mobile champions...

Akali Akali She has no crowd control except for a sub-par slow which is a big thing.

Diana Diana She has no escape once she goes in.

Fizz Fizz He has no natural poke. Im not sure if this can be put as a weakness or not but to me it is.

Kalista Kalista She has no steroids.

Kassadin Kassadin Does anyone think this guy is OP anymore?

LeeSin Lee Sin I think we have known for a while Lee Sin needs a weakness from his mobility which he doesn't have.

Lucian Lucian He is getting nerfed next patch.

MasterYi Master Yi Once again, no crowd control.

Shaco Shaco He is an incredibly old champion and was around before Riot began stating this.

Yasuo Yasuo He is very predictable and his dash can be interrupted by roots and stuns unlike other dashes.

Zed Zed Once again, predictable since he tells you where he can teleport.

Hayaishi5 votes

Cost for mobility? Well lets see here for the extremely mobile champions...

Akali Akali She has no crowd control except for a sub-par slow which is a big thing.

Diana Diana She has no escape once she goes in.

Fizz Fizz He has no natural poke. Im not sure if this can be put as a weakness or not but to me it is.

Kalista Kalista She has no steroids.

Kassadin Kassadin Does anyone think this guy is OP anymore?

LeeSin Lee Sin I think we have known for a while Lee Sin needs a weakness from his mobility which he doesn't have.

Lucian Lucian He is getting nerfed next patch.

MasterYi Master Yi Once again, no crowd control.

Shaco Shaco He is an incredibly old champion and was around before Riot began stating this.

Yasuo Yasuo He is very predictable and his dash can be interrupted by roots and stuns unlike other dashes.

Zed Zed Once again, predictable since he tells you where he can teleport.

"No CC" they dont need it

cshakes9 votes

Death is the best form of CC anyway.

Remlap12239 votes

Cost for mobility? Well lets see here for the extremely mobile champions...

Akali Akali She has no crowd control except for a sub-par slow which is a big thing.

And it also stealths her. Unless you've got AOE damage or a pink ward, you better be VERY good at predicting where the summoner is going to take her.

Diana Diana She has no escape once she goes in.

She also has an AOE pull. So she gets a gapcloser and then you get pulled in so you can't escape after she closes the gap. I don't think Diana players are worried about not killing their targets and relying on escapes.

Fizz Fizz He has no natural poke. Im not sure if this can be put as a weakness or not but to me it is.

I could write a novel on why Fizz is bullshit that rivals War and Peace. But I'll just leave it with 2 gap closers, invulnerability, and even if he doesn't burst you down with his Q/E or E/Q combo, his W will take care of the rest.

Kalista Kalista She has no steroids.

She can also kite endlessly, gets free dashes on autoattacks, does % health damage when her support is nearby, and her ultimate flings tanks and heavy displacement mage supports at you.

Kassadin Kassadin Does anyone think this guy is OP anymore?

It took a rework and an entire season of nerfs to take down Kassawin. Seriously, give this guy an inch and he takes a country mile. What was Riot thinking giving an Anti-Caster a huge slow and a low cooldown blink that increases in damage each time you use it?

LeeSin Lee Sin I think we have known for a while Lee Sin needs a weakness from his mobility which he doesn't have.

What? Two gap closers, or a gap closer and escape isn't mobility? UWOTM8? On top of that he has a HUGE knockback on his ult whilst doing ridiculous damage.

Lucian Lucian He is getting nerfed next patch.

He's been getting nonstop nerfs since his retune because of that passive. Not to mention he has a safer early game than MissFortune, whilst carrying harder.

MasterYi Master Yi Once again, no crowd control.

What's that? Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of my slow ignore, my true damage, your team getting pentakilled, and your towers getting dunked.

Shaco Shaco He is an incredibly old champion and was around before Riot began stating this.

Mobility isn't Shaco's problem, it's his fear and his blink and invisibility, and mobility creep didn't start with Shaco or Jax, it started when Riot decided to stick a dash on every champion to counter Ashe.

Yasuo Yasuo He is very predictable and his dash can be interrupted by roots and stuns unlike other dashes.

He also has a knockup, and for a while he was second only to Yi and Pantheon in terms of movement speed, which allowed no escape form Yasuo if there were any minions besides you when you were low on health. Even now, he can still dash indefinitely if you're low and cleave you.

Zed Zed Once again, predictable since he tells you where he can teleport.

Zed's problem isn't his mobility, it's his safety. He gets free huge damage poke, a gap closer, two if he ults, and huge juking potential. Once again, super safe early game, carries hard into the late game.

ModWulf Helhammer6 votes

LeeSin Lee Sin I think we have known for a while Lee Sin needs a weakness from his mobility which he doesn't have.

What? Two gap closers, or a gap closer and escape isn't mobility? UWOTM8? On top of that he has a HUGE knockback on his ult whilst doing ridiculous damage.

I think he meant a weakness that he doesn't have currently, not that he doesn't have mobility

Tik1152 votes

Cost for mobility? Well lets see here for the extremely mobile champions...

Akali Akali She has no crowd control except for a sub-par slow which is a big thing.

Which as what's been stated stealths her, and as what has already been stated if you don't have a pink or AOE she'll just wait till her skills are off CD and instagib the damage dealer then casually wipe the floor with the rest of you

Diana Diana She has no escape once she goes in.

See thats a good cost for her mobility, she has to use her mobility to go in but if she doesn't kill her opponent or force them to flash/gap create she's dead

Fizz Fizz He has no natural poke. Im not sure if this can be put as a weakness or not but to me it is.

w+Q in, E out, poked the enemy and they couldn't fight back, and what Fizz DOESN'T start flask + pots to keep the mana up

Kalista Kalista She has no steroids.

As I said, doesn't need them, Kite for days with the same AA as most carries, stacking E which might as well be a steroid and a % Max HP passive if her support can rub 2 braincells and AA her target every 8 seconds

Kassadin Kassadin Does anyone think this guy is OP anymore?

Nope

LeeSin Lee Sin I think we have known for a while Lee Sin needs a weakness from his mobility which he doesn't have.

Sure does, half the ult damage and remove the % missing HP on his Q is a good start

Lucian Lucian He is getting nerfed next patch.

Thing is with this guy is I feel its in the wrong place, he's a lane bully but their killing his early game pressure instead of lowering his late game power

MasterYi Master Yi Once again, no crowd control.

"Slow" is not in Yis vocab and his Q is practically a troll poll

Shaco Shaco He is an incredibly old champion and was around before Riot began stating this.

Shaco is what Lee should be, scarey in the early game but becomes very limited in what he can do late game (late game Shaco can only MAYBE kill a squishy and splitpush)

Yasuo Yasuo He is very predictable and his dash can be interrupted by roots and stuns unlike other dashes.

Except most roots and stuns are very slow or he can be all "lol windwall"

Zed Zed Once again, predictable since he tells you where he can teleport.

and who's going to be standing at his shadows until they dissapear? the tank? the support? then hey the carry is free to delete and when they fall back to try and save him I can just W or R back OR just let them being out of position result in their death

N3mO064 votes

Kalista's passive is just stupid......immune to slow, melee and skillshot, infinit chase potential. Ok she sucks agaist other adc in early, but did you see her in top or in mid???? You can't stay under tower, she can harras you without take not even a tower' shot. So if you are a melee you can't play aggressively beacuse she will dash away and will slow you so much that probably you will die for hes chase's potential , and you can not play defensively for her infinit and safe poke. A melle agaist her is always lost

Tik1153 votes

I'm gonna have some fun here and suggest Kalista changes which can ether have all of them or just some parts of it implimented which will instantly be rebunked by Riot because they'll say she'll be too weak and won't even test them (of which I will still challenge them to at least try, its one thing to SAY it wouldn't work, its another thing to actually try and see if it works and then come back with actual proof it doesn't work besides the "we rito we kno best dur", I mean hell you said you were gonna use the PBE for more crazy stuff yet you clearly arn't), SO

Stats: AD is 50-100 Armour is 15 - 70, health is 500 - 1900 Range is 525 Passive: Distance increases per level (No boots distance at level 1, T2 Boots at level 18) Q: No longer triggers passive W: Specters last 7 laps or 1 Minuete, whichever comes first, Minions can attack Specters %Max HP is 2/4/6/8/10% and has a CD of 20 seconds E: Now has 0.7AD per spear (0.1AD more then current), Slow removed R: If Oathsworn is CCed then cannot use ult, any DOT applied to the oathsworn continues through ult, Oathsworn must wait 2 seconds after being ulted to fire back, Hold duration increased to 7 seconds, if Kalista dies before the Oathsworn is flung they can imediatly fire in a direction or appear where Kalista died after 1 second

What this does: It gives Kalista the risk/reward of being very squishy and very risky laning early game with the reward of near untouchability but heavy burst damage to boot in the late game, the ramp up of her jump distance compliments the natural ramp up power of a carry, the W change makes it so that if she tries to push the lane solo she can't place a ward on the more bendy paths and just send specters out on the straightways and be almost as safe as a support putting 3 wards at choke points, the W passive means that not only can she not win a trade by simply autoattacking somebody once with her support but make it so she can't do it often, the E basically soothes the nerfs a bit by rewarding Kalistas for holding their E off and dancing close to danger and the ult change removes the anti-fun element of locking down an out of position support only for Kalista to be all "jk lol they safe" (I mean they should really be punished for misposition but this kills that punishment) and makes it so that the oathsworn can't just rubber band back before the opponent can react but also makes it so that if Kalista dies the oathsworn can ether give themselves a shot at freedom or try to turn it around

now to sit and wait for a Red to make some excuse as to why none of that will work.

xl Kirito lx1 votes

So, you're taking an adc with low damage, no real cc, and incredibly squishy, and nerfing her? Ok.

So many people want to say that she can outkite any melee with her passive, I can think of quite a few melees that have no problem catching her. People want her % magic damage to be OP. It's amazing poke early game, but mid - late game, it's assuming your support can attack the same person as you, and only happens once every eight seconds. Vayne can do that in true damage, without the requirements, every few seconds. People say Kalista has cc. She has a minor knockup that deals 0 damage, reliant on her support. She has a slow, where if she uses it, her overall damage drops hard.

These changes, you're removing what damage she actually has, removing any form of cc she had, and nerfing an ultimate that was reliant on another player to begin with. You just took Yasou's ult, said you can't proc it off of your own q, and can only use it when a champion has been knocked up for at least 2 seconds.

She's very hit or miss of a champion, someone you'll never see in soloque, but seems decent in high elo. Give up the Kalista hate, it's been a few weeks since her release. Everyones on the Cass bandwagon, and a few people going back to Lee Sin.

Remlap12233 votes

We need slows to reduce dash ranges, or at the very least we need champions with cripple mechanics in this game, like HiRez did with Smite. The reason why I roll my eyes when their forum community whines "MOBILITY CREEP!!!1!" is because not every god they've released has a dash. Even if HiRez pulled a Riot and started doing that, they've got Ares and Poseidon who have multiple abilities to prevent gods from using movement abilities, but still allow them to use damage abilities, not to mention Hades, Nox, and Isis who have silences in their kits.

Anidan3 votes

Every time I see someone talk about mobility creep in DotA I die a little, too when I compare it to this game. Most people in that game have mobility at a legitimate cost (Slark notwithstanding..) or they have no innate mobility due to the power of their kits without it (Tidehunter, Earthshaker, Sven), but can acquire it outside of a spell that everyone is going to take, including mobile heroes, anyway. And even then, the item from which you gain mobility can be temporarily deactivated by taking damage, so it isn't always a "get out of jail free card" either, like Flash can easily be. Beyond that you have more silences, stronger cc to keep mobility in check and so on. Basically, League is the only moba I'm seeing a really prevalent mobility problem on..

In fact, a lot of the more mobile heroes, Queen of Pain and Anti-Mage for example, make fun of you for buying a Blink Dagger on them.

Quepha3 votes

Ok so awhile back Morello said the problem with the mobility creep is that champions that have it have the same amount of power as imobile champions

morello did not say that, what he actually said was that when you set up the argument as mobile champions vs. immobile champions, you're defining one group by a strength and another group by a lack of that strength, so you're beginning with the premise that mobile champions do not pay for their mobility. they do design champions to have less of other things on their kit because they have a mobility spell, but the question is whether or not they do a good enough job of it, and you have to kind of look at these issues on a champ-by-champ basis.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

Its because we are in to deep just to start giving it a cost, that just automatically makes new champions with mobility terrible. every champ with mobility would need to be reworked and probably some without.

the Anarchit3cht1 votes

I don't know about you but Kalista isn't all that hard to catch for me. Any champion with a decent gap closer and damage absolutely destroys her. Akali, Katarina, Aatrox, Lee Sin, Xin Zhao, Galio, Shen...

Kuroi861 votes

I would love to know from Riot where is Kalistas cost for her mobility? because minus the lack of a steroid (which given the % max HP and inft scaling E she doesn't need one) I see no "Cost" for this level of mobility

Actually, you hit the nail on the head.

Who would win? Draven or Kalista

Tik1151 votes

I would love to know from Riot where is Kalistas cost for her mobility? because minus the lack of a steroid (which given the % max HP and inft scaling E she doesn't need one) I see no "Cost" for this level of mobility

Actually, you hit the nail on the head.

Who would win? Draven or Kalista

In the early game if Kalista proced her W passive then Kalista would win, 10% health damage and the extra damage from her E activate means she can easily outtrade anybody she can stay in range with

Kuroi861 votes

Very true, now fast forward to a late game, full build, 1v1.

Tik1151 votes

Very true, now fast forward to a late game, full build, 1v1.

Draven, because Draven is the most damaging carry in the game, but Kalista can kick his ass before then he won't be able to keep up

Kuroi861 votes

You're certain of this? You're certain that Draven can't play safe. There's no way that Draven and whatever support he picks can hold of Kalista and survive until he out scales her?

Tik1151 votes

You're certain of this? You're certain that Draven can't play safe. There's no way that Draven and whatever support he picks can hold of Kalista and survive until he out scales her?

Considering Kalista has the same AA range as Draven, is more mobile then Draven with trades, has a % Max HP passive unlike Draven AND can poke Draven under turret with little risk to herself and to top it all off once Kalista hits 6 Draven will be deleted in an all in unless he is under his turret (in which case he'd be poked down with no downsides on Kalistas side) if he DOES survive laning phase he'll be several miles behind and won't catch up until around 40 mins

Kuroi861 votes

Wait, wait, wait. They have the same range. How does Kali suddenly win any trade just by mobility? If Draven knows his range, the moment Kali comes in range to trade, boom! And this isn't even counting supports as Draven with a tanky initiator is going to have a pretty strong all in.

Tik1152 votes

Wait, wait, wait. They have the same range. How does Kali suddenly win any trade just by mobility? If Draven knows his range, the moment Kali comes in range to trade, boom! And this isn't even counting supports as Draven with a tanky initiator is going to have a pretty strong all in.

Simple, Draven AAs a minion, Kalista and her support (if ranged) AA him and Kalista passive has her imediatly jump out of range of Dravens support all in

Kuroi861 votes

And similarly, Kalista goes to AA a minion, eats a spinning axe, meanwhile Draven pops Bloodrush and turns back so his axe goes behind him and he's out of her range while Kali is forced to accept a losing trade or else get CC'd by Leona. :P

I can drop one sided stories as well. Kali has good tools at her disposal, but you can't automatically assume that Kali will have a master player while her opponent will be totally new to the game.

Lets also take Kali' soul mark passive into view. 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20% of target's maximum health Good numbers, but while great for poking, there's something that prevents it from being omgop. This effect cannot occur on the same target for 8 seconds. Meanwhile Draven can keep on throwing Axes all day long so long as he doesn't get CC'd.

Tik1151 votes

And similarly, Kalista goes to AA a minion, eats a spinning axe, meanwhile Draven pops Bloodrush and turns back so his axe goes behind him and he's out of her range while Kali is forced to accept a losing trade or else get CC'd by Leona. :P

I can drop one sided stories as well. Kali has good tools at her disposal, but you can't automatically assume that Kali will have a master player while her opponent will be totally new to the game.

Lets also take Kali' soul mark passive into view. 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20% of target's maximum health Good numbers, but while great for poking, there's something that prevents it from being omgop. This effect cannot occur on the same target for 8 seconds. Meanwhile Draven can keep on throwing Axes all day long so long as he doesn't get CC'd.

Your the one trying to argue Kalista isn't broken just because she gets outdamaged by a carry that is MEANT to outdamage every other carry, if you want to argue like that fine, how about the fact that Kalista can almost match Dravens power with the bonus of not being so predictable or the fact that She can deal almost the same damage for no mana and a support who has at least 2 braincells to rub together? and your saying that 8 seconds per proc makes it not stupid? even a Soraka would struggle to heal back all that damage before the next proc appears "oh well just stay back till your healed up before going back in" that means you lost the trade and your starting to lose the lane, and good luck having anything but say a Lee or a level 6 WW cause lolpassive

Kuroi861 votes

Your the one trying to argue Kalista isn't broken just because she gets outdamaged by a carry that is MEANT to outdamage every other carry

And you're arguing that a champ that's supposed to have insane mobility is broken because she does what she's supposed to do, have insane mobility.

But whatever. You've your opinion and you don't seem to care what is said so just go with what you believe because obviously nothing is going to change your mind. Truthfully no one knows just how strong she is. Every Kali I've seen so far has floundered and struggled and she see's relatively no pro play and not a lot of high elo play so far.
So in truth, we simply have to wait and see if in the weeks to come people learn to play her because right now, she doesn't look too hot.

Hayaishi1 votes

You're certain of this? You're certain that Draven can't play safe. There's no way that Draven and whatever support he picks can hold of Kalista and survive until he out scales her?

Considering Kalista has the same AA range as Draven, is more mobile then Draven with trades, has a % Max HP passive unlike Draven AND can poke Draven under turret with little risk to herself and to top it all off once Kalista hits 6 Draven will be deleted in an all in unless he is under his turret (in which case he'd be poked down with no downsides on Kalistas side) if he DOES survive laning phase he'll be several miles behind and won't catch up until around 40 mins

Are you even trying? Draven completely destroys Kalista.

xl Kirito lx1 votes

Draven gets an IE, lands a crit, and chunks Kalista to half health because of his AD steroid, he can also out trade because of his AS steroid, being able to use his AD steroid better.

Kalista's poke is reliant on her support, if the support is melee, she can't proc her passive as easily, if the support is ranged, now Kalista's throwing a squishy at people.

AP Sejuani1 votes

ITT: Armchair game designers think they know game design and how to solve all of Riot's problems.

Mobile champions do have weaknesses. If they didn't, their winrates would be higher. The problem is not the lack of weaknesses, it's the hard-countering that comes packaged with mobility. What's a Nasus or a Shyvana going to do against a Kalista with literally any attack speed item? Nothing. They get kited to death. What's Kalista going to do against a 900 AP Veigar ult? Nothing. She gets instagibbed. They have weaknesses, but their matchups tend to be erratic because certain champions have trouble capitalizing on those weaknesses.

Kaisha1 votes

You haven't learned by now? Everything the devs say is BS. For example they said they want jungle diversity, and then went and reduced the viable junglers by over half. They just say whatever it is they think we want to hear, then do whatever it is they want to do regardless of what we think.

Remember this, they don't care what we think. All we are to them is $$. The whole idea of a community, or working together, is completely lose in a corporate atmosphere. Those that call the shots only want more $$, and those that do interact don't care or can't care (because they have no say anyways). So until you make enough fuss that it actually affects their bottom line, nothing will happen. I can not emphasize enough just how little they care.

Waawee1 votes

I think that the slow on her e should be removed. It's quite a painful slow and it's also unavoidable.

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