Hes still stupidly fast with all of these items 
. The 5 movement speed nerf was a joke, they did the same thing to Riven too. And his Q duration really wasn't the problem that nerf seemed meaningless because once he can just save it until you waste your slows then run out, and he is clearly still able to run people down like crazy and destroy everything.
SaltyKracka4 votesWell his champ.gg winrate's dropped a couple of percentage points, so it seems to have had some effect.
He's still incredibly OP, of course. We'll see what these next nerfs do.
Fadedpf2 votesYeah he is but he is still way too fast. On top of all of his other problems.
Critmaster Garen2 votesYeah he is but he is still way too fast. On top of all of his other problems.
there are no problems. and hes obviously not too fast.
the goal of these tweaks isnt to neuter him to a point where eyou can just walk away from him.
Fadedpf2 votesYou dont seem biased at all.
Critmaster Garen2 votesYou dont seem biased at all.
im just quoting statistics. 53% winrate is strong, but not even extraordinary. champions have been sitting at similar winrates for month. if his winrate drops by another 1% to 2% it would be clearly enough.
if riot wouldnt agree, they would have more nerfs planned.
SaltyKracka2 votes53% winrate with a 12-15% pickrate and an absolutely ridonkulous banrate is pretty damn OP.
Critmaster Garen3 votes53% winrate with a 12-15% pickrate is pretty damn OP.
no its not. thats almost normal.
you want to know op?
almost 40% pickrate, similar winrates.
SaltyKracka2 votesIt's decidedly not almost normal.
I mean, I totally agree that Vayne and Ahri are OP, but Garen's not exactly balanced right now.
Fadedpf2 votesPlus Garen and all the other juggernauts are the ones getting banned out. There is no room for a Vayne ban if they want to ban something else they don't like. So not only does Garen have the insane ban rate he has a massive 53% win rate, is easy as hell to play, fast as hell, tankiest champ ever and has Assassin damage with potential true damage.....
AdderTude1 votesPlus Garen and all the other juggernauts are the ones getting banned out. There is no room for a Vayne ban if they want to ban something else they don't like. So not only does Garen have the insane ban rate he has a massive 53% win rate, is easy as hell to play, fast as hell, tankiest champ ever and has Assassin damage with potential true damage.....
The biggest problem is with his scaling Q. The fact that he can run almost anybody down with his 30% MS boost lasting 1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 seconds is ridiculous. The duration should be a flat rate across all ranks.
SaltyKracka3 votesGiven that "spend your mana on CC and walk away from him" seems to be the only intended counterplay for him...
Critmaster Garen4 votesGiven that "spend your mana on CC and walk away from him" seems to be the only intended counterplay for him...
there are like 10 items in this game that have slows attached. you dont need inbuilt cc to deal with him. there is an item for every archetype of champion to itemize into a slow to kite and peel him.
[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vk1h3Ab4,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2015-09-08T05:49:04.312+0000)
Uh, why not? That's supposed to be his weakness. He's unkillable and has the damage of an assassin, and in exchange he can't get near you.
youre supposed to put some efford into it lol. its not to be guaranteed that he cant reach you.
SaltyKracka2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vk1h3Ab4,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-09-08T05:49:51.605+0000)
there are like 10 items in this game that have slows attached. you dont need inbuilt cc to deal with him. there is an item for every archetype of champion to itemize into a slow to kite and peel him.
Slows. Like the ones that he can remove by activating his manaless Q? That also provides him with a movespeed buff and hard CC?
youre supposed to put some efford into it lol. its not to be guaranteed that he cant reach you.
Really? And what about resources?
Critmaster Garen2 votesSlows. Like the ones that he can remove by activating his manaless Q? That also provides him with a movespeed buff and hard CC?
dont waste your slow before he used q then? its not exactly rocket science.
also i should have been more clear. while there are a lot of items alone that are capably of applying slows, there are some items in this game capable of applying slows repeatedly.
namely
SaltyKracka1 votesSo you're saying that as long as Garen hasn't activated his Q, the only counterplay is to just try to walk away from him?
Critmaster Garen4 votesSo you're saying that as long as Garen hasn't activated his Q, the only counterplay is to just try to walk away from him?
youre generalizing, fine so will i. it should be easy in league of mobility.
otherwise how about not just trying to 1v1 him? it may be difficult with 1 person to kite him indefinitely depending on who you play. but the entire situation can look entirely different and takes barely any efford with 2 people rotating cc o him.
all his damage and tankyness doesnt matter if you have 2 people who are kiting him back while dealing damage and just alternate in applying slows and other forms of cc on him.
but of course that takes some minimum amount of coordination which half the player base of this game is incapable of.
SaltyKracka1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vk1h3Ab4,comment-id=000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-08T06:20:08.688+0000)
youre generalizing, fine so will i. it should be easy in league of mobility.
otherwise how about not just trying to 1v1 him?
So you're saying that nobody can lane against him, yes?
Critmaster Garen3 votesSo you're saying that nobody can lane against him, yes?
nobody was talking about laning.
his powerspike doesnt even kick in until lvl 10. there are plenty of champs that can beat him 1v1 in lane.
you guys brought up cleaver, dead mans plate and swifties which he doesnt have before midgame.
SaltyKracka1 votesAaaaand how many of them aren't Fiora or currently on the chopping block for nerfs? (coughDariuscough)
Critmaster Garen3 votesAaaaand how many of them aren't Fiora or currently on the chopping block for nerfs? (coughDariuscough)
is fucking lyssandra on the chopping block? swain? ekko? olaf? pantheon? trundle? gnar? heimerdinger? rumble? even fucking yorick is mentioned as one of his counters.
a well played riven can outplay and kill him before he gets strong or tanky.
all examples of champions that beat him early. and i mean beat him, not just hold the lane against him.
i havent lost lane to a single garen since the rework. you know why? because i know the champion better than any other, and how to abuse his weaknesses.
ive beaten garens with champions that i played maybe once or twice outside of arams.
SaltyKracka2 votesHaha you think Olaf actually beats people in toplane, let alone Garen.
Liss I'll grant you.
He beats Gnar right now. He beats Swain right now.
He certainly doesn't lose to Trundle.
Heimer is cancer and deserves nerfs.
Nobody plays Ekko top any more.
Critmaster Garen3 votesHe beats Gnar right now. He beats Swain right now.
he beats gnar right now?
mini gnar is like fucking teemo for him, and mega gnar is too strong and too loaded with cc for him to fight.
think of what youre saying here. his laning is significantly weaker than pre rework before he hits lvl 7. every champion that used to beat him before his rework beats him now.
and yea, garen actually has trouble dealing with a good olaf, as the guy can keep his passive down by spamming axes and true damage on him. he can bully the shit out of garen early on.
most people are just too much of a pussy to actually try and bully garen around before he gets to buy his first items and reaches lvl 10.
lane shyvana beats garen, since she deals significantly more damage early on.
SaltyKracka1 votesMini gnar evidently is not like fucking Teeto for him, as he's beating Gnars quite a bit, and losing to Teemos quite a bit.
As for Olaf...Spamming axes.
As in, those things that cost mana? Quite a lot of mana? It is to laugh.
Critmaster Garen3 votesMini gnar evidently is not like fucking Teeto for him, as he's beating Gnars quite a bit, and losing to Teemos quite a bit.
As for Olaf...Spamming axes.
As in, those things that cost mana? Quite a lot of mana? It is to laugh.
i dont care what you think he beats or doesnt beat. i play the fucking champion for 5 years and every possible matchup you can imagine. i know whats strong and whats weak against him.
gnar in mini form has 3 tools to kite him around. a slow, a mobility tool and a movement speed bost coupled with % hp damage. hes probably the safest pick against him possible. megar gnar has the ability to deal burst damage and completely lock him up with cc.
and right now, i have no problems playing against him with these same champions.
SaltyKracka1 votesAh, so you're arguing with a strawman instead of the actual statistics then.
Good to know.
Critmaster Garen2 votesAh, so you're arguing with a strawman instead of the actual statistics then.
Good to know.
i was the one who brought the statistic data up in the first place. check championgg
amongst his biggest counters are currently yorick, lyssandra, pantheon, singed and still kennen. the other champions i mentioned have a stronger early game than him until level 10 and can beat the shit out of him if you use their powerspikes accordingly.
and those are just lane counters. there are champions like janna, anivia, and tristana who hard counter him outside the lane phase.
disregardable3 votesUh, why not? That's supposed to be his weakness. He's unkillable and has the damage of an assassin, and in exchange he can't get near you.
ImSoFull1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vk1h3Ab4,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-08T05:45:50.347+0000)
there are no problems. and hes obviously not too fast.
the goal of these tweaks isnt to neuter him to a point where eyou can just walk away from him.
He does like 1500+true dmgg
Critmaster Garen1 votesHe does like 1500+true dmgg
he doesnt deal more than darius against a squishy, which is most of the situations. unlike darius, his ult doesnt refresh. its only going to be a lot if youre another tanky fighter on a killstreak.
he also doesnt deal more true damage than fiora or vayne over the course of a fight.
Matezoide4 votesStatistically, Garen is fine. 52% win-rate with his pick as one of the simplest champions in the game (That also happens to be better in solo-que) is nothing out of this world.
Once they add the small nerf to his Villain mechanic, he will be perfectly fine and fix the biggest problem with his kit. Vayne is a much bigger issue than Garen atm.
Critmaster Garen3 voteshis winrate dropped from 55% to 53%. also next patch his villain mechanic is changing, that kills against garen dont count towards villain stacks. meaning getting killed in lane doesnt put him at an advantage afterwards. that should finally be enough.
Critmaster Garen2 votesnobody playes ekko top anymore, are you kidding. maybe you should? at least sicne he beats garen? so does swain.
i played these champions against him and beat him easily post rework. the last time i ran ekko against a garen a couple days ago i went 7/2 against him.
SaltyKracka1 votesWheee, anecdotal evidence strikes again!
For top Ekko, it's apparently so infrequent that champ.gg doesn't have a slot for it.
...And he has a positive winrate against Swain. Not that Swain top is a particularly popular or strong pick at the moment (and a damn good thing, too)
Critmaster Garen3 votesWheee, anecdotal evidence strikes again!
For top Ekko, it's apparently so infrequent that champ.gg doesn't have a slot for it.
...And he has a positive winrate against Swain.
this is not just anecdotal evidence. his winrate isnt far above 50%. he can be countered in lane, by itemizing into slows, and by certain champions and strategies outside the lane phase.
the next nerf is going to greatly affect his stregth in lane, when the villain doesnt apply to people who kill garen anymore. meaning his lane opponent doesnt get the mark after he kills garen and is put at a disadvantage.
if hes so broken, why arent you challenger with him yet?
the problem is, you dont want to know how to actually beat him. even if presented with counters and strategies instead of considering them you just return with "this and that champion isnt played top lane". you want to complain, because its easier than listening to advice.
SaltyKracka1 votesHis winrate combined with his pickrate and banrate is waaaaaaaayyyyy outside the norms. And he's got a pretty fucking good winrate.
Are you seriously trying to get personal with me, Mr. "I totally main Garen and have absolutely every reason for wanting him to stay strong"?
Critmaster Garen4 votes
His winrate combined with his pickrate and banrate is waaaaaaaayyyyy outside the norms. And he's got a pretty fucking good winrate.
Are you seriously trying to get personal with me, Mr. "I totally main Garen and have absolutely every reason for wanting him to stay strong"?
youre dismissing every argument that is presented to you without even testing if it might work, on the basis that im maining the champion. i have a lot of experience with him. im winning with him repeatedly and i beat him repeatedly when faced against him. maybe you could consider if i actually know what im fucking talking about when i play the champion for that long.
how many of the picks i brought up would have even crossed your mind? did you even consider itemizing specifically into these items to slow him down and kite him around?
fact is, that many people would actually be surprised if they knew how weak garen is pre 6. and since the rework his spin actually deals less damage until lvl 7. have you ever tried to fight him head on at early levels with a lane bully instead of waiting until you have farmed your first items, and given him time to get tanky?
Slamurai Jack3 votesYou can't argue with these people man. They actually think they know the champion better than someone who mains them because they got rekt by them a couple times.
Matezoide1 votesI think something that helps Garen earlier in the game is that most people dont understand his power spikes at 4, 7 and 10. He gets a considerable damage boost to his E at those levels, which can definetly get people off-guard
Officer Tristian1 votesI also main him (for a while) almost agree with you 100% . To me his changes are a BIG NERF (they reked his laning phase for some damage mid-late game and a gimik ult ). He no longer counters riven-reneketon-fiora in lane (if you can keep up with farm he can counter them post 10 ) he gets bulied by his counters now more then ever before. I actualy managed to get a Garen to have 0-1-0 24 farm in 12 min with a teemo in gold 3 (where i play) while i had 1-0-1 80 farm . (no point in teling how that game went) . As soon as people lern to couter him his win rate well go well below 50% with the curent changes. I want the old Garen back.
Shonjl1 votesIts kinda amusing to still see Garen nerf threads still, even if this one just hides it.
The end of the day, people only don't know how to fight him. They rarely dealt with him before his rework and now that he is viable, they are being forced to and people can't seem to adjust it seems.
Since from my own experiences, Garen often loses top lane to anyone that can actually fight back, he is a sustain champion, if you don't allow him to sustain himself, he will slowly lose lane pressure. The only times I have seen Garen win, was when I or whoever is playing him is against someone that clearly showed they never played against him, they would always allow themselves to get hit by his Q and not even try to auto to make the trade even, and run away from him and their minions when he E's into you, when that is what he wants you to do, since he does more damage if you are alone.
But again, I mostly gave up on these threads, since his rework was more a nerf to him than a buff but people will complain about anything that kills them it seems.